Hello everyone. I just wanted some opinions on WS letter below. If you read her recent posts and then read the letter below. I think you will agree that the weather has definitely changed. I have not told to her that I wanted to work on the marriage because I wanted to see if her feelings or attitude would change. One day she will do anything to repair M and the next day she won’t. She views everything as me being controlling. I view it, as her life should be an open book. If she wanted to prove that she was trust worthy she wouldn’t have a problem with me looking at her phone. I am bitter once again because I feel she has picked me up only to let me down again. I am upset with myself for letting her into my life again. I didn’t see her for about a month and I was getting used to it. Then when things go bad with OM she comes crying back. When will I learn?

below is her letter.

Sorry i couldn't really talk on the phone...it's next to impossible at my new area. What I'm going to say isn't much different from what I told you yesterday. I think we see things so differently, and we're both trying to be right all the time. But I can honestly say that I feel I did nothing wrong in my actions leading up to now.

Here's how I see it. Yes, I was scared to move from my home, away from my marriage, into the unknown. The meds hadn't taken effect then, and I was feeling so alone, like no one could possibly understand what I was going through. I was (am) in a severe depression. I had a wave of remorse rush over me, making me feel like a horrible person. I wallowed in the thoughts of "I ruined my life", "I ruined my marriage", "This is all my fault", etc. I felt I needed to tell you I am sorry and to begin to make things right. This is what I felt I needed to do. You were apprehensive, rightfully so, and evasive to my words, although somewhat comforting to me. I needed to be held, comforted. My meds were giving me horrible side effects and I didn't want to go through that alone. You knew how terrible I was feeling, emotionally and physically, and I felt like you took advantage of me in my vulnerable state by wanting sex. I felt I "owed" this to you somehow, so I obliged. Again, I was made to feel like an object, since you had no concern for how I was feeling. I felt dirty afterwards. Sent me major reminders of why I had the affair in the first place. Someone who LOVES their significant other just doesn't expect to be "taken care of" when the other person has just been dry heaving all night long. It's just wrong, and totally disrespectful.

I tried to take that in stride and keep moving ahead with you. As suggested, I pursued the "dating" route with you. I would ask you to dinner, you would leave me wondering up until the last minute, saying you had to see what esle was going on before you gave me an answer. Which, I thought, was your mindgames at hard work again. Not very intriguing. By the time I got an answer, I was just annoyed. Again, I tried to take things in stride, as you probably felt you needed the upper hand at this point. Friday night, we had dinner, it was cordial, but tense. My expectations of what dinner would be like and what it was really like were completely different. In other words, I have good feelings about seeing you...and when I actually do, it's not what I anticipated, and I'm left wondering, why did we even do this? Then we watched a movie. I wasn't expecting you to spend the night, nor did I ask you, you just did. It wasn't discussed, which I find intrusive. My phone rang late, and you turned into "Captain Control". Taking it upon yourself to start flipping through my phone, asking who's number this is, telling me to check my messages, etc. I wanted to ask you to leave at that point. I felt violated. This was my house, and you were taking it over. I had no desire to even touch you that night, because I was completely turned off by your actions. THAT was the beginning of the change in my attitude.

Saturday it seemed to me that you thought we were back in a relationship full-swing. This was never discussed, only assumed by you. All of a sudden, I was expected to "check in" with you if I wanted to "prove" that I was sincere about making the marriage work. To me, this isn't an acceptable condition. We were still separated, and you at this point had made NO indication that you wanted to work on the marriage. Was I to assume you did? Again, this was never discussed in length, only little hints about being home for xmas, etc. I wanted to know if I should purchase certain things, and got no answer from you. Still annoyed from Friday night's antics, I spoke to you from the nail salon. You said "Call me when you're done". I said OK. But on the way home, I thought, WHY? So i didn't. I rested, watched TV and would call when I got up. You beat me to it, and ripped me a new a-hole for not calling. Another scary reminder of what I'd be going back to if we reconciled. WS gets pushed even further away.

Then my phone keeps dying, so what does BS do? Shows up at my door! Unannounced! Another intrusion. More feeling of being violated. Barges in, tells me that he wants the D, eats my ravioli, tells me to leave him alone, flips through my phone again, and leaves. What is wrong with this picture? WS is now feeling like there is NO point of continuing this charade at all.

Sunday comes, you call at 9:00 to ask if I'm going to church and if I want to go to Linvilla?!?!? Hello Mr. Mindgames, nice to see you again. I'm still wondering what the point of this nonsense is. I made plans the night before to go to Scrimmages, and Target. Basically wanted to keep myself busy for the day to get my mind off the craziness and stress of our recent fights. But you expect me to drop all this at your request, putting on the guilt trip by saying, "Your friends are more important than your marriage"...and..."I guess I know where your priorities are". You had totally missed the point. One has nothing to do with the other. I made plans, and I was keeping them. Plain & simple. I told you I could go with you beforehand, and i was not thrilled about the idea, but was willing to go anyway. Big mistake. The whole carride was full of LBs, giving me more clarification that this going nowhere fast.

I am not talking to OM at all, and I haven't. I don't need to. I am doing completely well without him in my life. He was a nice part of my life, but it's over. I accept that, I learned from it, and I'm moving on to a better me. As far as my "distorted thinking" goes, with me thinking that I ruined my life, etc, I cannot take all the blame. OM wouldn't have gotten a second glance from me if things were peachy with us. I was weak, I made a mistake. I am human. And I vow to myself, and no one else, that I will never put myself or the one I love through that pain ever again. I don't want to have to PROVE that to anyone.

The meds have kicked in. I'm starting to feel better about ME. I think this scares you, in some freakish way, because you no longer have a sense of control over me and who I am. My goal during this separation is to get to know me. I have spent my life catering to every man I'm with, ignoring who I was all along. That's a big part of me wanting to spend alone time. You see this as an attack against you, saying that "someone who wants to work on their marriage doesn't want to spend time alone". A very selfish statement. I wish for once you could consider my health in all of this. I'm not going to be any good, for ANY relationship if I don't get better.

I am still depressed, it is just masked by meds right now. Just like if someone has a broken leg, they wear a cast until it's better. I'm broken, and in need of fixing. I really don't think I ought to be making any big decisions until I am better, or at least on my way. I'll only regret it and myself, and you later. That includes any decisions about relationships or divorce. As cliche as it may sound, I really do need to work on me. I'm sure you'll attack me somehow for saying that, and not respect anything I'm saying. You'll think it's a cop-out, or an excuse to avoid conflict. That's not the case. I've only been on my own - really on my own for a week. That is no time at all. You were right when you said that this was all happening too soon.

So there's my position. I don't know where it leaves us, except I am not ready to prove anything to you. I feel that if you can't begin to trust me during this separation, then our chances are slim. That would have to happen without me feeling violated in any way, and I really don't think you can control your actions. If you can trust me when we're apart, then you should surely be able to trust me if I come back.

funkedup,

I will treat her letter as the truth. OK?

I think some of her criticisms are valid.
I think her point of view is wacked out (nothing new for the fog)
I think you should give her the space she requests,lots of space.

She is wrong about many things, but she is right that you are making an erroneous assumption if you think she is ready to work on the marriage. She is not that much is clear.

I am sure others will post with more cogent responses.

God Bless,

JL

Hi HF,

Well the letter certainly does state her present condition. I am sure she may not agree with all your responses but here goes mine.

She admits she is not ready to make decisions and knows that being on meds is a temporary fix. She also does not feel she has to prove anything.

Given that and a few other points, do you really want her back as is? Or do you want her back as a working partner? Hard questions and the answers are not owed to us but to you and if your W is reading this to her also.

Really would your W tolerate the type of actions on her part towards her? If yes, then that is the type of person she needs to be with and if you can't be that type of person....well you decide.

My WS at the time said similar. After dealing with my hurt and realizing that I couldn't fix his mental state, I told him that as long as he felt like he did no wrong, then he had to stay away from me because I did feel he did wrong and if he felt I was controlling, then I would not deny it since yes, I do want to protect those I love and in some cases, it may be control.

Basically, I called the WS on their bluffs. I admitted to the controlling piece but not as they intended it to mean. See there are always 2 sides to every story. AS a parent we should be controlling in a way that protects. As partners in life some of that does fall into the marriage arrangement but it should be coupled with respect. Yes, I do need to check out my H's e-mails, mail and cell phone info. I don't have trust restored yet and he knows it. So if he didn't do any wrong, I have to be convinced not him.

Kinda reverse babble here but meeting the WS' bluffs head on an difusing their statements back to reality has been helpful to me. I don't let those kind of comments scare me anymore.

take care,
L.

Inafunk&funkedup//Being in your “H” place you need to tell OM to quit contacting in any way shape or form. If you are contacting him you need to make up your mind who you want or just pick one ..the two of you need to get together and not talk for a few hour may be after that you can find a way to work in to talking in a civil tone and work on the marriage I read so many books I can’t tell what I learned I do know he’ll have to put up with your withdrawals from the Adulterer and you are going to take it out on him and you will after awhile feel guilty about what you say and funkedup take like a man she’ll thrash and trash and say things you didn’t think she could say to another person .Till this is done you’re adding wood to the fire What little I’ve read you two are taking digs at each other in M B and it not nice .inafunk You married him for some reason (I hope LOVE ) you hurt him in ways he doesn’t understand and we all attach the ones we love because they will still be there when we’re done and come back to your right mind .I’ve said to much all ready.(be still and quit so you and hear ./by

Well first and foremost, I'd like to thank my H for plastering my personal letter on the world wide web.

Secondly, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not speaking to OM.

Thirdly, say what you will about the control factor. You all do not have to live with this person. Last night he actually gave me an ultimatum: "Either you work on yourself, or you work on your marriage". Gee...I thought one had to come before the other.

IaF,

I understand how you feel about the letter. You both share space here at MB and it was not taken in an offensive manner. In fact, my H said many of the same things you did. In his angry moments he tells me he hates me posting about him at MB and in his loving moments he understands this place has been my sanctuary throughout the A and even now.

You know I gave my H the same utlimatum. I meant it. I just got too tiring to continue to play that game of wait and whack. You see while the A was going on (more recent than many of you all think), I was meeting his needs. I know that for me to heal, I needed to stop meeting those needs and let the OW meet ALL of them. Using a BS to meet some needs whether or not an OM is in the pix is still using the BS and family.

Remember the BS does have needs also and most of us don't have a OP to turn to. We have to either watch our needs go unmet or find another solution (includes MB time here).

Ultimatums? Well HF is not the only one. You may not like living with the likes of my personality either. I do have rules in my home. I have learned that this home requires respectful people to live here. That goes for all of us.

You know what? When I gave the WS that ultimatum, he left. Went to live with the OW...... couldn't even make it past 10 days. Begged to come home. I didn't change. The ultimatum still stood..... oh by the way so did his financial obligations. In fact it is still standing.

I must be the mean one but the WS is now an H and still living here. Treating us with respect and getting better at it.

You know sometimes, ultimatums are not always a bad thing.

L.

funkedup...Is her letter right? Did you do what she said? If, so...she's got a lot of valid points. If she didn't or it isn't your POV, then the two of you need to find out what the middle ground is and decide how much of "her truth" agrees with "his truth"...and if you're lucky discover what the "real truth" is.

If either of you want to save this marriage, you might start with agreeing on some basic rules of conduct. You're not getting anywhere. jmho

I don't know enough about your situations to give much advice, but you two are on completely different pages of recovery/rebuilding. again jmho

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: just a wifey 2002 ]</small>

Why is it controlling for your H to want OFF the rollercoaster? He set his boundary where he needs it to be. This is not all about you, you know. If anyone is controlling it's you trying to keep him on the rollercoaster.

Weren't you just posting on Divorcing/Divorced a week or so ago about wanting to reconcile mrs funked up?

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: KalGrl ]</small>

Hoboy!!! what a thread!

Well, I'm going 2 sound a little weird her, maybe, but since it's Mr. Funk's thread, I'll answer his 2uestions regarding Mr's Funk's letter first:

Mr. Funk:

"Hello everyone. I just wanted some opinions on WS letter below."

Brace yourself, here they come! ;o)

"If you read her recent posts and then read the letter below. I think you will agree that the weather has definitely changed."

I could TELL the "weather had changed" when I read Mrs. Funk's recent threads. She appears 2 be OVER her A. That's HUGE, Mr. Funk.

"I have not told to her that I wanted to work on the marriage because I wanted to see if her feelings or attitude would change."

This is reasonable, but it doesn't get you anything.

"One day she will do anything to repair M and the next day she won’t."

Is this true? Even if it is, this statement is judgemental.

"She views everything as me being controlling."

I've followed many of your threads for the past several months. You very definitely have been controlling. This sounds like you still are. Be aware of it and how it will affect your recovery, then deal with it.

"I view it, as her life should be an open book. If she wanted to prove that she was trust worthy she wouldn’t have a problem with me looking at her phone."

Hm... This MIGHT be in keeping with MB principles, but it's not with "2long principles". Why do I say that? Well, my W said/says many of the same things about me that your W does about you. Some of it is justified, some is probably based on imagination (partly based in truth, though). What do I do about it? Well, I've decided 2 love my W unconditionally, without expecting anything for ME in return. I don't look at her cell phone bill. I have looked at her IE history a couple of times in the past month 2 see how often she emails RM, but I haven't been 2 interested in the content (and it's been work related, so I can either let my imagination run wild or work on trusting her). Anyway, what you're doing is all about EXPECTATIONS. What you should be doing should be based on HOPES.

"I am bitter once again because I feel she has picked me up only to let me down again."

You are bitter because of your EXPECTATIONS, not because of ANYTHING Mrs. Funk has or has not said or done. Sorry 2 be so hard on you, but you are taking a rare oppor2nity here and trashing it.

"I am upset with myself for letting her into my life again. I didn’t see her for about a month and I was getting used to it."

So was she, it seems.

"Then when things go bad with OM she comes crying back."

I didn't get this impression from her recent threads. I got the DISTINCT impression that she's OVER her OM, has been for a while now, and is interested in CAREFULLY trying 2 reconcile with YOU and be M'd 2 YOU again.

"When will I learn?"

Beats the white off my @$$, Mr. Funk!!!

You're both still stuck on who's right. It won't get you anywhere. Neither of you is at a good point to be working on the marriage since there are still many personal issues you haven't addressed. Fix yourself...then see if you still want to fix the marriage. You want off the roller coaster, then back away and stay off of it. No one says that you have to file right away in order to move on with your life, and dating right now would be a huge mistake. So be by yourselves and start looking in the mirror when you want someone to blame.

Funkedup

What I'm about to say to you I mean it with the utmost respect and good will.

It seems that you have no faith in the MB methodology and you are doing all the things that you have been told will drive inafunk's love away. So why do you come back here anyway, to vent? If that's what you want then go ahead but it's not going to solve anything as far as your M is concerned.

Just like inafunk had been addicted to her A, you are now addicted to your resentment and bitterness.Would you love somebody that was resentful and bitter? I think not. You have to let go of both of these destructive emotions because no matter whether your M to inafunk survives or not, they will always acompany you and sabotage any future relationship.

inafunk

I truly am sorry that funkedup has love busted you so much but I cringed when I read this part of your e-mail to funkedup:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He(OM) was a nice part of my life, but it's over. I accept that, I learned from it, and I'm moving on to a better me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a slap on the face to your H and does NOTHING to make him want to come back to you. It just shows him how much you DON'T regret what you did.

Sorry inafunk but I would not bet good money that your M to funkedup is not headed for divorce because both of you are non beleivers in MB and you keep on doing the same things that have not worked for you in the past, over and over and over again.

Until both of you start practicing The Four Rules For A Successful Marriage your M chances for survival are very grim indeed.

May God grant both of you peace.

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Orchid,

Ultimatums may be acceptable to you & your H. I&#8217;m not trying to be right here&#8230;I just have some belief systems I&#8217;d like to keep in place. My history with H, has not been one to brag about. There were many control issues before we moved in together (before we were married). Many infidelities on his end, one on mine. We had broken up for about 9 months before we got back together. I told him I would never go back to the way things were before (controlling me) and he agreed. It was fine at first, then he became more jealous, etc., although it never went back to being as bad as it was before.

I can see it going back to that now. I know I was at fault, but no one should have to live like a prisoner, or feel like she&#8217;s answering to her father, or feel like she&#8217;s under the interrogator&#8217;s spotlight every time she walks in the door. I should have some dignity & respect left for me. So if I&#8217;m given an ultimatum to work on myself or work on my M, of course I&#8217;ll choose me first. It may sound selfish, but I do have to worry about #1. Like I said in my letter, I&#8217;m no good to my marriage if I don&#8217;t dig deep to find out why this all happened in the first place.

Wifey&#8230;

Yes, my letter is right. All the events did take place as described. H will attest to it, he&#8217;ll only justify his actions by saying I need to prove myself. We have so much trouble finding middle ground, because he abuses the MB principles. He&#8217;ll take them and twist them to fit his own principles, which is CONTROL. He&#8217;ll say I&#8217;m hung up on this control thing, but it&#8217;s very alive in our relationship. Even when we were counseling with Jennifer, I told her that he was abusing &#8220;Extreme precautions&#8221; and &#8220;POJA&#8221;. She said, &#8220;He&#8217;s not abusing them, he&#8217;s not doing them AT ALL!&#8221; Meaning, he had no idea how to apply them.

So no, we are never on the same page. It&#8217;s so very unhealthy for me to even converse with him about all this. Our convos are full of LBs, threats (well if you do this, then THIS will happen&#8230;type stuff).

KalGrl&#8230;

No one is stopping H from getting off the rollercoaster. That&#8217;s his decision. Yes, I was posting about reconciliation. H was acting caring & loving then and there for me during a difficult time. My romantic notion of what it would be like if we started to work on things was MUCH different than reality. I was totally disappointed when I saw he can&#8217;t control his actions, threats, LBs. Nothing had changed.

2Long&#8230;

I always value your posts. H thinks that his controlling behavior is justified in all this. There&#8217;s a fine line where my voluntary reassurance ends and his control begins. It&#8217;s not the fact that he looks at my phone. It&#8217;s the way he goes about it. He doesn&#8217;t ask, he&#8217;s forceful, and shoots me evil looks while he&#8217;s doing it. It would be much different if he could possibly ask first, or even do it without me knowing! At least that way I wouldn&#8217;t have to see it.

I like your analogy of EXPECTATIONS vs. HOPES. It&#8217;s exactly how I feel.

TMCM:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have to let go of both of these destructive emotions because no matter whether your M to inafunk survives or not, they will always acompany you and sabotage any future relationship.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I&#8217;ve said to H as well. I am doing many things to better myself. I am in IC (Cognitive Therapy&#8230;GREAT stuff), I am reading every book from &#8220;mood therapy&#8221; to &#8220;co-dependency&#8221; to &#8220;marriage&#8221; to &#8220;Infidelity&#8221; to &#8220;separation & divorce&#8221;. Trying to educate myself on every situation I have been in or may be entering. I am on anti-deps. I&#8217;m not spending many nights partying with friends or getting phone numbers like H is. I can&#8217;t see how he&#8217;s trying to change himself or this M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I truly am sorry that funkedup has love busted you so much but I cringed when I read this part of your e-mail to funkedup: He(OM) was a nice part of my life</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see how that would make one cringe. But I&#8217;m being honest. He was a big part of my life. I learned a lot from that experience. At best, I learned how I should be feeling about my M and I don&#8217;t feel that right now. I learned to laugh without having someone ask me WHY I&#8217;m laughing. I could be myself for once without inhibitions. I don&#8217;t hate him, and I probably never will, as much as H would want me to. I&#8217;m not saying it was all peaches & cream&#8230;I had just as much joy as I did pain from that R, and 50% happiness just doesn&#8217;t cut it for me.

I never claimed to be a 100% believer in the MB principles. H did. There are some things I find over the top. I&#8217;m sure they work for lots of people, but when you&#8217;re dealing with someone like H, they tend to get warped.

Thanks for listening, all...

IAF

<small>[ November 13, 2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: inafunk ]</small>

bumping

Inafunk and Funkedup, you might be interested in the following advice from Dr Phil. I hope it helps.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dealing With Control Issues

Is control a problem in your relationship?

Start taking responsibility for your actions. It's time to examine how your behavior might enable your controlling partner.

Negotiate boundaries with your spouse — not when you're arguing, but during "peace time." Agree to have a consequence if these boundaries are crossed. For example, if your controlling partner starts to dominate a discussion, call a time-out. Revisit the conversation only when you're ready.

If you're being pushed to your limit every day and you think about giving up, you will someday cave in. Giving up cheats you and your partner if you haven't both made a concerted effort to improve your relationship.

Ask yourself, "What is it costing me to be in this relationship?" If the answer is your dreams, identity, or dignity, the cost is too high.

Controlling people often participate in emotional extortion: "Agree with me, or else...." For the good of your relationship, sometimes it's best to agree to disagree.

Look at all of your options. You don't have to engage in explosive arguments when dealing with a controlling partner. Refuse to participate when your partner is trying to control you.

Suffering in silence isn't love. By not dealing with a controlling partner's behavior, you're only enabling it to continue, and are therefore cheating the relationship</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Advice About Affairs

Whether you're the one who has strayed from your relationship or you're the partner who feels betrayed, Dr. Phil can help you move forward.

It is absolutely vital for you to move forward with life and love. Being willing to trust again is key. Take things one step at a time.

Don't try to make sense out of nonsense. Rationalizing your cheating spouse's behavior or sympathizing with him/her is pointless.

In order to resolve your relationship, contact with "the other person" must be cut off 100 percent. You can't work on dealing with the consequences of the affair while you're still having it.

Make the hard decisions. Either leave the marriage to free your partner, or commit to stay.

The best predictor of future behavior is relevant past behavior. Was this something you saw coming?

Ask yourself: What are you doing to help your partner get past the affair?

Help the partner who did not have the affair find emotional closure. You must do whatever it takes until your partner finds it.

Time heals nothing. It is what you do with the time that matters.

Don't think the healing will take the same amount of time that the affair lasted. Healing can't start until the hurting stops.

Remember that it is better to be healthy alone than sick with someone else.

If your partner wants back in, he/she will have to earn his/her way back into the relationship. Make a plan together to renegotiate the relationship.

Do you know what a healthy relationship is? Figure out what you want and behave your way to success. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by inafunk:
<strong>Orchid,

Ultimatums may be acceptable to you & your H. I&#8217;m not trying to be right here&#8230;I just have some belief systems I&#8217;d like to keep in place. My history with H, has not been one to brag about. There were many control issues before we moved in together (before we were married). Many infidelities on his end, one on mine. We had broken up for about 9 months before we got back together. I told him I would never go back to the way things were before (controlling me) and he agreed. It was fine at first, then he became more jealous, etc., although it never went back to being as bad as it was before.

I can see it going back to that now. I know I was at fault, but no one should have to live like a prisoner, or feel like she&#8217;s answering to her father, or feel like she&#8217;s under the interrogator&#8217;s spotlight every time she walks in the door. I should have some dignity & respect left for me. So if I&#8217;m given an ultimatum to work on myself or work on my M, of course I&#8217;ll choose me first. It may sound selfish, but I do have to worry about #1. Like I said in my letter, I&#8217;m no good to my marriage if I don&#8217;t dig deep to find out why this all happened in the first place.

.........

Thanks for listening, all...

IAF</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">INAF & HofINAF,

INAF, just wanted to clarify........I surely don't want you to misunderstand what I said.

Please, please hear this out:

Certain words make people jump to certain conclusions: Love, control, independance, etc. However those words have more than one meaning. There is good and bad love, good and bad control, good and bad independence, etc.

So when these words are used in a 'bad' sense, yes they can be wrong.

ex: - Love in an A is bad for a M.
- Independance causing one to take
drugs, get drunk, commit crimes, have
an A is bad for the person and all it's
victim s.
- Control causing one to mistreat others in
various forms of abuse is bad for all
affected.

* Love in a M and family is good for all
but bad for an A.
* Independance is good when the trust
and love factor guides the person.
(when we give our children
independance in a controlled
environment and watch them flourish into
mature adults - it's a beautiful thing)
* Control serving as a protection is an act
of love as when we step between our
children and danger. Set guidelines for
our families and those we love. Yes even
in a work environment. At times, safety
and control work well together.

Can you see where these same words can have totally opposite viewpoints? It is often dependant on the receiptant's attitude.

What are often viewed as 'ultimatums' are really meant to bring one to their senses. For example: Telling our children that if they don't stop a bad habit, privileges will be taken away...... is that an ultimatum? Yes. Warranted? Probably. Is it wrong? Not neccessarily. This system makes everything debatable. It has caused families to lose their rights in fighting for the life of their children and mates. The right to choose does not always work in the benefit for the family.

Just like the words above, there are good ultimatums and bad. The OM can give you an ultimatum also.......anyone can. Your boss, the police, the government, friends, family, neighbors, the bank, credit card companies.......anyone....... so what? It is not all a bad thing. What should you really be paying attention to? Please read on........

Just as our children may not appreciate the efforts of the parents and call them 'over-bearing', invading one's privacy, too controlling, old-fashion, etc., should the parents just stand by and watch their children ruin their lives? Let the children run around with no guidelines, no control have all the independance they 'think they want'? Be there only to 'bail' them out?

Now think, Really INAF, if you were to watch another person display your actions, would you consider them the same way you consider yourself? Be the type of person, you would want to be around. Let your H do the same.

The self-examination course is one we all must individually do. Your H needs to do it also.

You know, my mom is a great lady but at times her method of communication was bad. It was hard to obey (yes obey) her. Even now though I am over 40 years old I still listen to my mom and dad, they have a lot of wisdom and I take to heart what they have to say. Now that I am older, well the decision is mine and so are it's consquences but I do not rebel against their wisdom. But even with my mom's sometimes intolerable communication skills, I knew that she loved me and was saying it (maybe not in the best way but in her best way) what was for my ULTIMATE good/benefit. Knowing this made it more palatable.

I have learned to apply that lesson in life with others. It has allowed me to grow and benefit where others may have been too stubborn to learn. As a result, I have learned that criticism is not always a bad thing and to look for the good of what someone says even if I don't like it.

The real blunt message: Both of you need to straighten up your attitudes toward each other. Stop making excuses for your bad behavior.

'You will find more happiness in giving than receiving' and 'keeping an eye, not in personal interest upon just your own matters, but also in personal interest upon those of the others.'

That last sentence are partial quotes from 2 great men....... please pay attention to it. It might just save your M.

JMHO,
L.

<small>[ November 13, 2002, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Good stuff, Orchid!

It's certainly difficult at times recognizing the width of the gray areas here. My W interprets these words and things that I might still say that sound like ultimatims from HER end of the gray zone, and I interpret them from mine.

Communication is still the key... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Elequoently said Orchid...very very good stuff there!!

2long and H4f,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Between what was said by all (by the way, I like what Coffeeman quoted), I hope something will sink in.

You know the funny yet repeatative thing is that the WS tend NOT to like their actions when seen in others. For some reason it just looks dumb to them and some of them get quite upset! Go figure. They don't call it the fog for nuthin!

INAF and HINAF kinds have been seen here before. The endings have gone both ways. I certainly hope that these two have a happier ending but the choice is up to both of them.

I hope they are not both mad at me. I had strong words for the both of them, when there is a marriage, what hurts one hurts the other also......that union of 1 thing goes both ways. So I hope they understand.

JMHO and sure glad MB is back up and running!

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I never claimed to be a 100% believer in the MB principles. H did. There are some things I find over the top. I’m sure they work for lots of people, but when you’re dealing with someone like H, they tend to get warped."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting. Could you be more specific?

LOL, Orchid. Don't I know it.... When I was a WS I was the Queen of Hypocrasy. I acted one way, but I expected OM or H to act differently...when I acted badly it was due to the stress of the situation, but when anyone else did they should have been stronger or known better...yadda yadda yadda. I really WAS trying to change myself and my terrible actions...but I was working under the assumption that if everyone else would act perfectly, I would too. LOL!!! Gawd...it sounds like craziness to me now. Basically I went from being 40 at age 4, into my teens and twenties...then I guess I decided to slip in acting like I should have when I was 4?!?! I like being 31...it feels so much more stable.