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That’s what my wife wants to see.

To her sex will come naturally when the romantic is there. So far she was reluctant to have sex with me because she felt that there was no connection between us emotionally. She wants to feel special. She wants me to come up with the romantic plan and surprise her with it without thinking of sex because that’s how she feels about me. To her, what I have done is all about wanting to have sex in return (after 2.5 years without it, is that too much to ask for?)

I told her that I have been trying in the past but she was rejecting all the things I have done. Her response was she wasn’t ready to accept anything at that time. And now she wants to feel connected with me again but slowly. How slow can it be? It has been almost two years since her EA ended.

She said that it has been her and only her for the past 16 years of marriage who HAD to come up with the romantic plan and for me, she said, she has never seen me doing it or come up with it, ever. I’m tired of that perception and don’t see any point to even talk to her about it any more.

Part of me wants to try again, but another part of me wants to quit this marriage entirely. That’s what I told her last weekend that we shouldn’t be together any more and I was tired of her logical mind set that got stuck in this endless cycle about us. Of course she perceived as LB on my part to say that and I felt that I could careless about it.

I know, I know I have been through this road before and some of you have already told me to get lost and take a hike. Here is my last effort to hear from you before thing goes down the drain of no return. Feel free to jump on me or hit me with a 2x4.

Ladies and ladies WS, what do you think based on your experience?

Of course, everyone is welcome to send your comment, advice, and “harsh” opinion.

Again, thank you for your time.

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4O—
I’m not sure if I should applaud your resolve or tell you that you’re the biggest hammerhead I’ve met outside myself.

But I’ll give you credit for sticking in as long as you have. Not sure how you made it 2.5 years, but you have some sort of grit.

Look at what she’s telling you: She wants to reconnect SLOWLY. You say, well, it’s been 2.5 years. How much slower does she need it?
Dude, she hasn’t been trying to reconnect for 2.5 years. She’s been cakewalking, then withdrawing, then figuring out what she wants, then evaluating your changes, then formulating her strategy for living her life with you, and now she’s TELLING YOU HOW TO DO IT.

And you’re asking us for insight? It’s right there. On a freakin’ platter. Do something romantic.
You said;

--I told her that I have been trying in the past but she was rejecting all the things I have done. Her response was she wasn’t ready to accept anything at that time.

That’s what I’m saying here. She wasn’t ready. She was wrestling with a gazillion feelings, including her own sense of worthlessness. Think that would make you feel sexy?

--And now she wants to feel connected with me again but slowly. How slow can it be? It has been almost two years since her EA ended.

Uh, negative Ghostrider. It’s been two years since the EA ended, but not since she started recovering her feelings for you.

--She said that it has been her and only her for the past 16 years of marriage who HAD to come up with the romantic plan and for me, she said, she has never seen me doing it or come up with it, ever.

So, let’s see, for every one thing you did that was totally and completely romantic without any thought on your part that you might get some nooky, what’s the ratio of nooky-driven romantic efforts? 10:1? 20:1? Only you know, for sure, your motivations, but I have learned that we men are pretty damned transparent about this stuff.

--I’m tired of that perception and don’t see any point to even talk to her about it any more.

Now here’s the real rub. Just about every person on this board is begging their S to be more open, more honest – to TALK. And you say you don’t see any point in talking to her about it any more? Dude, if this has been the pattern over the 2.5 years, no wonder it’s taken so long.

Get your damned head on straight, man. Listen to the woman!

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OOOO,

I think you missed the point of many of my posts. It isn't what you W has done since her affair that leads me to recommend that you divorce her and move on. It is what she did BEFORE the affair that leads me this statement.

Her statement that she did ALL of the romantic things for most of the marrige is like
a child killing his parents that throwing himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan.

She is the one that slept in separate bedrooms from you because she felt the kids should sleep with her. She is the that controlled when and IF you ever got sex. She is the one that CONTROLLED you life and the marriage. And then she says that you weren't romantic enough?????

When most people talk about rebuilding a marriage, it is supposed that the marriage had a lot going for it BEFORE the affair. Yours did not. This woman has been in control of things her whole life, even her family cannot stand her. That my friend is a clue.

So you do what you want, but you are simply being controlled. When you jump this hurdle there will be another, and another. Pretty soon the children will be gone and she will divorce you and you will have wasted your life.

I don't know what else to tell you.

God Bless,

JL

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OOOO -
I'm going to speak to you from my personal experience. Although I was the betrayed spouse in my marriage (now divorced), you sound JUST like my XH. In his mind he thinks he did everything, although his attitude was "too little too late". I'm not flaming you here, but that is how your post sounds.

If you love your wife, try what she suggests. A healthy sexual relationship is an extension of a healthy relationship. I knew my XH was indeed very frustrated with my lack of SF, however, I wasn't attracted/nor wanted to have sex with a man who bickered, shook his head in disappointment, blamed me for everything wrong in his life, etc. What would make him think that when night came, I could just forget all of the bad/ugly stuff and make love to him? It just doesn't happen that way.

Typically (I'm NOT an expert) a man needs SF to feel more emotionally connected and a woman needs to feel more emotionally connected to give/have SF.

If you love your wife and she loves you - then what's wrong with trying what she has asked?

Some questions for you and your wife....

Are you in counseling, couples or individual?

What do each of you want in your relationship?

Is the emotional affair ended?

Are you still living in the house together?

Do you get along overall (aside the SF issue) - meaning are you two friends? friendly with each other?

Good luck.

Llama

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Thank you Chorus for dropping by with your insight.
Yes, you can call me the biggest hammerhead you’ve ever met on-line. It also flat straights 180 degree as far as your naked eyes can see. I’m and have been listening to many women for all my life, my mother, my sisters, my aunts, my female friends, my daughter and nevertheless my lovely **sarcasm on** “control-freak and self-centered” **sarcasm off** wife.

I know that she hasn’t been trying to reconnect with me ever since. As a matter of fact she had probably disconnected with me a long time ago way before her affair that I didn’t even realize it. I should have seen or gotten a clue right after my second child was born more than 12 years ago when she “kicked me out” of the bedroom and replaced me with the kids. But I thought that was a good thing for bonding between my wife and our kids. Yes, I listened to her then for trying to see for a few months that lasted 12 years. Damned flat head I have been.

The main reason why I feel reluctant to try to do something romantic again was because of the many rejections, shutting down episodes and blunt messages that told me not to do anything romantic with her again as long as I live. I’m talking about flip-flopping with so many twists and turns that I don’t even know what is exactly what she wants any more.

That’s why I want to hear from the experience of ladies WS.

Yes, I understand that just about everyone here wants to be more open and more honest to talk, I should be more than happy to see that. But the reality is she is flip-flopping to her advantages and coming up with delay tactic to buy her time.

And I’m tired of that. That’s why it could be my last ditch of trying to save my marriage.

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OOOO - I was ready to endorse Chorus' reply, then I read JL's and flip flopped.

I existed 8 years in a sexless and affectionless marriage. As JL would say, she had control of everything and, of course, argued (after her affair started) that it was my angry outbursts (frustrated by lack of closeness in the marriage) who caused her in-house separation. Chicken and egg - don't know which came first, but one begets the other. I never got any explanations prior to the affair.

Chorus and JL have polar recommendations (no "ice" pun intended). I honestly don't know what to suggest. Just wanted you to know I was here.

Dave

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OOOO

I agree with JL. You are being so strung along here. It could go on for years more. I'm sorry, but I do not go for that "it was all me, now it has to be all you" bulls**t. No matter how one-sided things may have been in the eyes of one party or the other, it still takes two committed partners to participate in a workable resolution. SF is like one of the top ENs that a man has and her cutting you off like that is like asking union workers to continuing working without pay while a new contract is hammered out. Whether her heart is in it or not, she is your spouse and physical affection is something that comes with being married. You know, in many states, and in many religions if I’m not mistaken, loss of physical affection is grounds for divorce. Both of your needs need to be met while you are both working on your relationship. She is acting as though she is the Queen and you need to prove your worthiness to her, not to mention that you do not know with absolute certainty what exactly it will take to please her romantic desires, so she can always declare your efforts as always falling a little short and please do try again later. I say walk away with some dignity leftover or make some nonnegotiable demands for some of your ENs to be met too! Good luck.

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IS IT MY IMAGINATION, OR AM I SEEING A CLEAR DIVIDING LINE IN OPINION BY THE MALES AND THE FEMALES RESPONDING TO THIS?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ November 13, 2002, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</small>

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Thank you Just Learning for keeping up with me.
I know how frustrated you would be reading my post. Perhaps, I did miss some of your points in many of your posts. I know and understand what you said had something to do with what my wife has done to me before the affair.

I have been trying to “bury” the past and work on the present toward the bright future with the woman I love. I know that there wasn’t much to rebuild this marriage from, but I have to start from somewhere even it means to stay floating on air for the time being.

I know that she was the one that controlled when and if I got to have sex, but in her point of view, she saw that I was the one who indirectly had control about sex. Why, because after our second child was born, she lost her desire to be sexual with me but still continued to have sex with me even on her schedules but nevertheless still had sex with me because she felt it was her duty as a wife and MEN need it. On top of that she resented that I had not gone through with the vasectomy and she ended up tying her tube because she didn’t want to have any more kids. To her If I like to have sex, then it should have been me instead of her doing the vasectomy.

I know that I will do what I want or simply be controlled by my wife, but is that what most of the men have been controlled by? Women!!! Sorry ladies.

JL, I know it sounds so easy to say, but it is hard to implement. Until it happens to you, you would never feel the raw deal. When you look at the picture, it looks nice, but when you are in the picture, you can feel it. Like a professor who is an excellent teacher with theory but never applies in “real world” would never know what the “real world” would look like until he/she tries it for his/herself.

That’s my take.

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OOOO -

Obviously I don't know your whole story, just going by what I had read in your initial post here. I was the BS - not the WS and our relationship lacked SF.

If you could answer the questions I had asked that would be helpful I think for the women and men reading this post who aren't specifically familiar with your scenario.

Thanks,
Llama

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Well, let this female input a huge agreement with JL. I know what Llama is speaking of...but I said the same thing and justified almost trashing my marriage over it. The truth was somewhere in between my insistance that my H was NOT romantic and refused to try and my H's claim that nothing was ever good enough anyway. We BOTH needed to drop the attitudes and expectations and work TOGETHER in a healthy way. Hey, it's not easy and we'll probably never have it exactly like we want it (okay, I KNOW we won't because I want to be pampered and showered with affection and gifts, and he wants a simple woman who doesn't ask for much, LOL!!) But we love each other, we're committed to keeping each other happy in this marriage, and we'll do what's necessary to keep it going.

I do wholeheartedly agree with JL, though. This woman isn't working with you...she's setting you up to fail. I recognize the patterns well because on a bad day I fall in to them myself. You don't have a marriage right now, you have a "jump through the hoops for me and I'll just be over here setting up more hoops" kind of arrangement. Let her go and move on to find someone who will love you for what you CAN and are willing to give.

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H4F -

I agree with you completely. My post about lack of SF was just one major issue in a long list of major issues that my XH and I had.

And, because I'm not too familiar with OOOO's situation, I asked him those questions about other areas of their marriage. LIke, aside from the SF issue, how well do they get along.

No one's perfect, this I know. My XH was pretty romantic - I did get gifts, flowers, jewelry, etc. However, I got emotionally abused when it came to the whole SF issue. And, days when I tried SO hard, I was the one who was pushed away from him.

Your post was great. Thanks for sharing your insight and knowledge.

Hugs,
Llama

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Thank you llama for your response and asking questions.

I’m so sorry that I have not had a chance to respond to your reply right away. But I did read your insightful information and will reply to you with the answers to your questions soon. Unfortunately I have to go right now and I will try to get on-line when I get home. If not, it will be tomorrow.

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Ok, OOO,
How about one more shot. Plan a big night, spend a week working up to it. Talk to her, play with her (you know, tickle, pat rub ect.) send her a note, flowers. Ask. ... Then if it doesn't work, dont just walk run away.,, you tried by the way im a female, so i don't know ANYTHING LOL

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So, OOOO,
You have been working on this a long time. JL has been posting similar things to you since last spring. I was wondering if something had happened that has given you a lot of hope, or just what was going on. Have things been happening that have made you think there is a chance for both of you?

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OOOO,

You know old friend, I really don't know what I do. I have always thought that JL is a very wise man but like Dave, I'm torn between the 2 sides here.

I do feel from my own failed marriage that everything my dSTBX complained about would have vanished if he had shown me even a very tiny fraction of the romance, time, etc he has shown to the slut.

However, if he left her & came to me today & wanted to work things out I have no clue what I do. Okay if Dave or JL are reading this I'm ducking here........No I really do have a clue it would take a lot before I would even date him

I guess what I am saying is that it really sounds as if you are ready to quit and if you are fine but if you want to give it another try more power to you.

I do think if you try & then leave your children will be hurt more the longer you wait. MY OS would have been so much better off, if I had refused to go Singapore & divorced his dad after the 1st yr.

My not very wise 2 cents

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llama,
I’m back. It may sound like I did everything and my wife didn’t do anything. The fact is I DID do my fair share of being responsible for my family. I did wake up in the middle of the night bottle-feeding my kids when they were babies. I DID change the diapers. I did shower the kids. I HAVE helped with their homework. I HAVE been the one who took the kids around for their activities after school. I DID do the cooking for more than 13 years out of 16 years marriage. I DID do the cleaning of the dishes whenever I had a chance to do so if she didn’t do them. I have been doing my own laundry and ironing my own cloths from day one into marriage. I have been doing the grocery shopping and running errands. I have been paying bills and taking care of any financial transaction. I fixed things around the house and was the one who waited for the handy man to come if I couldn’t do it myself. I have been taking care of the yard and the outside of the house.

I DID give her gift and card for the important occasions. I DID send her flowers, especially red roses and sometimes gave her flowers for no reason. However, I STOPPED giving her gift, card, and flowers after being told by her not to do any of these things for her any more during her affair and right after she ended it. She told me she didn’t want anything from me any more so I stopped after continuing and trying for a while even she said no and many rejections. But now, she wanted all of these back so that I can stimulate the romantic mood for her to feel connected with me again. The question is how real is it? Does she know what she wants or what she is talking about? What type of “sick” mind that I have to work with here.

OK, now about what she’s done for the family. She was taking care of the kids after she kicked me out of our bedroom at night. She took care of them when they got sick and 80% of doctor visits were her chores because she was just 5 minutes from where we live and school and 10 minutes away to the clinic. She DID the vacuum of the house. She DID do the kids’ laundry. She DID clean the bathroom until we added another one 6 years ago and I ended up cleaning one of them ever since because it became my bathroom vs. her bathroom and my bedroom vs her bedroom. She DID plan most of the romantic activities (twice a year, one for valentine and one for our anniversary).

I bought her a 1.5-carat “flawless” diamond ring for our 10 years anniversary, and I got nothing. We took the cruise to the Caribbean for her 40th Birthday. My 40th Birthday happened to be at the peak of her affair and I got the hurt and the pain, not even a card.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Typically (I'm NOT an expert) a man needs SF to feel more emotionally connected and a woman needs to feel more emotionally connected to give/have SF.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That’s where the problem is. My wife sees exactly what you mentioned here about the woman, but she doesn’t see it about me (the man SF needs to feel more emotionally connected.) All she sees about me is just the sex and not the romantic thing.

The question is I still love my wife, but she doesn’t love me any more. Because of that she thinks I should do what it takes to get her back without any expectation whatsoever from her in return. She said to just do it without thinking of sex and when the time comes she will come to me but when she doesn’t know right now. All she knows it won’t be any time soon and if I do love her like I said I should be willing to wait for that even it means for the rest of my life. How do you like to hear that?

I used to be in counseling, but now I’m not. My wife refused to be in one, period.

I want to be in a real relationship as a husband and a wife sleeping in the same bedroom and fulfill each other needs. My wife wants to be the taker, but the giver. She practically wants to stay as roommate helping each other raising our kids. That’s the reason of no sex.

Yes, the emotional affair ended 23 months ago as far as I know.

Yes, we are still living in the same house; even during my wife’s affair she has never spent a night anywhere else.

We get alone fine as long as I don’t ask to have sex with her. We do talk and sometimes spend time together for about 20 minutes or so doing thing together.

I hope I have answered all your questions.

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Hi OnOff

What you are saying is that you contributed your fair share, maybe more, of the duties. Also, that you gave, gave, but didn't get much in return. What you are NOT saying is whether your WW sees it the same way? Don&#8217;t forget - her perception of it is her reality, not reality itself. From her perspective, what you are saying, your romantic action - for whatever reason - haven&#8217;t struck home. You need to understand why they haven't worked and what could work instead. Try out different things, ask her what romantic actions then she would like! Tell her to help you in that, as all you did apparently didn&#8217;t work. From your side, I would also tell her that a live without our SN fulfilled is highly unsatisfactory & not sustainable. She probably knows that - but did it sink in? Does she understand that SF is usually men's #1 or #2 top EN, and that not getting any of it is not a sustainable option?

Nick

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OOOO,

Certainly, you have been given valid arguments from both sides.
It sounds to me, though, that you want to give it one more try and she's telling you what she needs. So, she's communicating more now. Ask her to give you a list of the things that she thinks are really romantic no matter what it is. Dont comment or make judgements about them. Take it as a guide of what you can do. If she wont write up a list, sit down and go through a list of things that you think she may like. Tell her that the only way for you (a man) to really know what she thinks is romantic is for her to just tell you in plain language.
If it makes you feel any better, set a dealine for yourself and when you reach it assess whether or not there has been any tangible progress. Then you can make a final decision.

AND, since she has been so forthcoming in telling you what she feels entitled to, you should set some boundries for her. Tell her that you are reaching your limit. That you love her and you want her to love you too but that you won't allow yourself to be treated like this. Tell her you will be making honest efforts to meet her romantic needs and that you expect her to be honest in her response and respectful of your feelings and efforts.


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