Hi Honey,

I didn't forget about this thread - I just don't have enough hours in the day to do

everything I want to.

First off I wanna reply to Gib real quick ok?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BR said:
Asking them to respect your wishes regarding your children is like asking an alcoholic to

stop drinking, or a WS to stop the affair, or asking the WIND TO STOP BLOWING!"

Gibby said:
Well, I'm an alcoholic, yet I quit drinking.

My W was having an EA, I asked her to stop.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to tell Honey, and I'm making a point
of straightening this out because too many co-dependents struggle daily with attempts to
control and change others, and I'm afraid your words may convey support for that futile
excercise!

YOU made a choice to stop drinking. YOU made a decision about your own behavior. There is
absolutely no one who could have excercised any kind of control over your choice. My point
to Honey was that she had absolutely no power to make anyone else make those choices either.

Yes, you asked your wife to stop her EA and she stopped. Not because YOU had any power or
control, but because SHE made a decision about her own behavior.

Anyone can request that someone else change their behavior. In a marriage where there is a
healthy POJA in place, this is the norm - but again, its not because anyone has any power
over anyone else. It's because each spouse chooses for him/herself to surrender themselves
to that rule of love. Each person makes a choice to love the other.

I asked my husband repeatedly to stop drinking and to stop his affair and I begged him to
come home. My requests fell on deaf ears. My marriage is in recovery because I changed MY
OWN behavior and then my husband chose to change his.

We have the three C's in Al-Anon: We didn't Cause it, we can't Control it, and we certainly
can't Cure it.

SO the short of it is that I want Honey to start to recognize that the ONLY person she can
change is herself and her own choices and behaviors. Asking others to change is OK, but
expecting them to do so is not. Honey has to learn to draw boundaries (change herself)
instead of asking others to change.

Ok, anyway, HONEY, back to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your parents. The things you wrote about your parents on this thread are extremely
interesting.

Have you gotten the book "Survival to Recovery"? It's an Al-Anon book. You and I have
something else in common - we both grew up in extremely dysfunctional families, where active
alcoholism was not present. My parents are not alcoholics, but both of my grandfathers
were RAGING violent, destructive alcoholics. Many of my aunts and uncles (my parent's
siblings on both sides of the family) are also alcoholics.

In MY own opinion - alcoholism has three sides. There is the physical addiction (which I do
believe is genetic), but even more insidious are the other 2 sides: spiritual and emotional
dysfunction. One does not have to have the physical addiction to experience the spirtual
and emotional destruction of alcoholism.

So, in my childhood home, there was no physical addiction. But let me tell you - the
emotional and spiritual dysfunction of alcoholism were absolutely rampant. From what you
describe about your parents and your childhood, you had a similiar experience.

As an interesting side note - I am the oldest of 10 children. 5 of us have reached
adulthood - and all 5 of us are either alcoholics, or married to one, or both. One sister is married into a ragingly alcholic family. One of my brothers, a recovering alcoholic in AA, is married to a wonderful woman who sadly also came from a severely dysfunctional
alcoholic home. Out of the other 5 siblings, one has died, and the other 4 are still in college and highschool. It remains to be seen how they will turn out, but already it doesn't look good, even with a fairly healthy message AA/Al-Anon message being passed along to them from 3 of us older siblings.

The reason why I am taking this so seriously, instead of just saying: "Don't sweat the small
stuff" is because I think that your parents behavior sheds alot of light on your choices in
spouses, your behavior in those marriages, and also on some of your husband's legitimate
complaints.

I'm gonna share with you alot of my background, so that maybe it can help shed some light on
your situation.

Honey, my dad did something horrible to all of us kids. He beat down even the slightest HINT of a boundary that he spotted in any of us. Emotions, especially hurt feelings, were ridiculed. We learned to stuff, stuff, stuff any type of vulnerablity to keep our father from spotting it and exploiting it. My father called this behavior "affectionate teasing".

Believe me, as an adult, who has spent many years learning what healthy emotional behavior is, I now am completely appalled at what he did to us. He kept us completely isolated from reality (the world was evil and bad and he had to protect us from it). I was controlled every second of my day, told what to do, what to wear, never allowed any individuality, never allowed to ever think anything that wasn't approved by my dad. All of it done under the guise of raising me to be a good girl, all done out of "love". Boundaries? I didn't have them, they'd all been stripped from me as a child. All I knew how to do was control.

When I became an adult, I had a terrible time adjusting to the real world - and I was attracted to many "bad" boys. My parents had fits - their sweet little girl that they had raised so perfectly was attracted to scum! It never occured to them or me, that the reason I liked these terribly dysfunctional boys who treated me so badly was because their behavior towards me felt comfortable - it was the same thing I'd grown up with, just not as well disguised under trappings of religion and morality.

My parents agreed to my marriage to my husband, not because they thought he'd make me a good husband or that we were compatible or anything else....they agreed because he met the "approved" background test. He was from a "good catholic" family (my parent's definition of good catholic, to this day they still don't approve of even most catholics) and his mother was the president of our state's right to life organization. So my husband had the right credentials, so my marriage was blessed by my parents.

I thought I was compatible with my husband, gee he felt so normal! Of course, the enourmous amount of booze he consumed was rationalized away by me - but to give myself a bit of credit, I had no clue what alcoholism was - I had never been told or exposed to the rampant alcoholism in my extended family (it was all deep dark secret).

Lucky for me, my husband joined the Navy and we moved far away from both of our families.

After he left the service, we moved back to NJ, where his family is, but still far away from my family. Today, I recognize, that my life might have been much worse had we moved near my family. When we got married, I believed that my family was perfect. It took many years for me to realize just how sick they were. But in the meantime, I carried out my own behavior in my marriage the way I had learned all those years in a very sick family.

Of course, my husband has more than his share of dysfunctional background. So with our marriage commenced the sick treatment of each other. I, being ultra moral and responsible, set out to fix my husband. On the other hand, I was emotionally needy, and full of alot of very unrealistic ideas of what love was and how our relationship should work. So I set out to cling, beg, and demand my husband's love and attention. Well, with all the self-righteous demands, moral superiority, my "rightness" in all things - because of course, everything had to be done in MY way on MY time line. I was terrified of the world, terrified something bad might happen if I didn't remain vigilant to any and all possible breach in my control of everything around me. I now understand how much of my behavior was rooted in pride (only *I* knew the *right* way to do things) and my fear (if it wasn't done MY way, horrible unnamed things would happen). Critical and controlling, self-righteous and demanding was how I treated my husband. And because he didn't lift a finger to help me with the house, the bills, or the kids, and he didn't respond to my very high need for love and affection (who would?) I became resentful, angery and horribly depressed - so depressed that I became literally unfunctional.

When I started trying to figure out what was wrong with me after 2 years of this, I came across Melody Beattie's book on co-dependency, and read about myself on every page. I made a common mistake though - I blamed my husband for my problem. If HE would change, then I'd be ok and I could stop being co-dependent. I didn't look at MY family or my childhood, or even imagine that any of our problems could be rooted in something besides HIM and his disease.

Well, it took his affair to make me start looking at myself and my own behavior in our marriage. I had to recognize how many times I had acted like my parents toward him. And I had to recognize how many times unconsciously I sided with my family (they were right of course! :roll: ) against my husband. This did extreme damage to my husband.

Does this excuse his drinking or affair? No. But regardless of the way he chose to deal with my behavior, it does not change the fact that *I* was wrong, and contributed in a HUGE way to the problems in our marriage. I wasted so much time focused on his drinking and blaming him. I also spent alot of time focused on HIS dysfunctional family and blaming them for our mess of a marriage. I blamed everyone and everything I could...to avoid having to look at ME. I mean, seriously, I was the "good" one, I didn't have an affair! I was the "responsible" one, I didn't drink and waste our money and time on hanging out in bars! How could any of it have been my fault?

Now, reading over your thread, it struck me that your parents don't respect you, and they still have the same sort of relationship with you that you had when you were their child and responsiblity. The problem is, you are an adult now, and they haven't figured that out yet.

Now you can do a couple of things. You can ask them to change. I doubt this will happen. What you can do is change how you relate to them, and draw boundaries in your own choices and behavior that keep your marriage protected from them. Because I suspect that your relationship with your parents, and your willingness to let them walk all over you, has done grave harm to your marriage.

THIS I think, is what you need to learn how to do most importantly. I suspect that if you want to save your marriage, you are going to have to learn how to protect your husband from them. I suspect that they have interfered, bossed, controlled and manipulated you and your husband to the point that he will NOT come home to face that again.

I suspect that Honey, you are going to have to resolve both the childcare and the house situation with them in a fashion that your husband is comfortable with. The problem of course, is what he wants may not exactly be a healthy or reasonable answer either. So you are in an extremely difficult position. Which is why I and others keep talking to you about taking care of HONEY and Honey's kids, first and foremost.

I suggest that in the counseling, acknowledge and affirm the problems that your parents may have caused in your marriage and express willingness to negotiate and work with your husband to resolve those issues. I think you are going to have to prove to him that your parents are not going to come barging in and interfering with you and Jim's parental decisions. You are also going to have to free yourself from financial ties also. You are going to have to demonstrate that you are on Jim's team, not your parent's team and that you are no longer going to choose to make them happy over Jim's happiness.

Again, I say this with the cautionary statement that Jim is also sick and his needs and expectations and demands probably aren't the best (as in wanting to take the kids out of state). So you are going to need stay on a very fine line, putting yourself and your kids first. And trust me, getting your parent's intrusions out of YOUR life, regardless of the outcome of your marriage, is going to be very important.

You also need to really start exploring YOUR issues, which clearly precede Jim. The abusive first husband is a screaming red flag. If you can fix Honey, then you might have a chance at saving your marriage.

<small>[ November 28, 2002, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: BrambleRose ]</small>

Dammit Rosey, you could quit your day job and be a therapist! Everytime I read a post of yours I learn something so valuable. Thank you.

Honey, sorry for hijacking your thread, Just couldn't stay quiet. You are getting some very excellent advice. And you're always in my prayers.

Love,
Jo

Happy Thanksgiving to you both.

WOW BR, Wanted to say thanks. I too, was raised in a morally and religiously rigtheous situation! My husband was a bad boy, and I was a rebel too when I met him... but knew I wouldn't act like that as a MOM.....or for the rest of my life... anyway I am over to my parents.. for thanksgiving lunch, just a few hours... running late.. and stressing as my mom will be mad... gee? does that sound familiar.. she always wants things her way... and will get mad and even give me a dirty look when I come in late... so rush I go, - I am bringing a healthy dish as I still want to lose weight! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Haven't spoken to h, he hinted there is a chance of dinner together.

Terribly frightened abuot filing with the state attorney general.. he will get a letter in 3 weeks about paying 25% of his income... to which he might do... well he will have to, but I am sure will still get under the table money... I found out yesterday he has been getting 1300 a mo. in unemploy, enough to live a college style life and do a side job here and there and tell me he has no money??// Well I filled out the ap>? I am scared he is going to blow and refuse counseling, etc. now.... Should I call and try to cancel this?

Anyway, off to tday, will ck in later.... definitely. I want to reread what you wrote bramble.

Thanks. Thanks to evreryone here... I appreciate the support... even though I was a stubborn one.

Honey

Honey,

Unemployment income is taxable. It is not under the table like his side jobs might be. It will have to be reported on his tax return as income and therefore subject to 25% CS.

I don't know that is is possible but you may want to check into this. Can the CS agency attach his unemployment check just as they would an employment check? That might be a far reach but worth checking into. Regardless, if you don't collect it now, it may come to you in the future as a delinquent CS or "arrears" as they call it.

I think it's a very wise step to file for CS. I hope it generates some responsibility on his part.

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

BR -

Quite simply put, you're the best!!

The depth of your opinions and the eloquent way in which you express them from your keyboard are a gift. Thank you for sharing it with us..

Gib

Hi Honey,

No I don't think you should cancel it.

Yes, he'll be angry, but thats because he's gotten comfortable with you taking care of his responsibilities.

Enabling can be defined as "Doing for others what they can and should do for themselves." This is especially important to think about now, because you are basically shouldering HIS financial responsiblities to his children, which has NOTHING to do with his relationship with you.

Enabling can also be defined as "Creating a comfortable environment for unacceptable behavior." As long as you are busting your behind to support yourself and the kids without his help, he avoids the consequences of his choices. Which means he's pretty comfortable being selfish - it sure isn't hurting him is it?

The fact of the matter is that he is responsible for his children. You've been shouldering it for him, enabling him to continue his behavior.

You can't control his reaction to this Honey. All you can do is draw a boundary, and this is one. You will no longer quietly shoulder his responsibility.

He probably will cancel counseling, he'll probably call you, raging that THIS is IT, and he's never coming home after you betrayed him like this!!!! All you have to do is read ahead in the script Honey! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But just because he says it, doesn't mean its true. Since you already know from reading ahead in the script, you'll be prepared and calm when he reacts badly - with an all out assault on your buttons (which you will have moved and hidden, right?) to get you to react to him, in order to regain control of the situation.

You'll simply say: Jim, you are obligated to support your children. I'm sorry that you feel betrayed by my filing, but I can no longer continue to bear the full financial burden.

He'll probably say that you should carry it all because you forced him out of the house and forced him to have an affair, yadda yadda yadda.

Simply say I'm sorry, thats not how the State Legislature see's it.

Good-bye! and hang up.

Then give him some time to cool off.

Don't make your choices out of fear right now Honey, fear will NOT guide you well.

BR- Still want to digest your earlier reply and reply to it some. I will stick to my guns on the cs.

Jim is angry now b/c I have called him too much this week and says he doesn't want to see me today, but is interested in seeing the kids.... I called a few times regarding the change in our counseling appt and also tday and plans... he had sd he might come over for dinner...

Anyway, I will let him have his happy day with his new friends who are the party guys.... whatever... his new landlord looks like a stoner himself... whatever...

Anyway, I am saddened that I am getting lashed out at.

I will just tell him of the filing soon.. perhaps in counseling on monday if he comes , the next appt. But since I hung up today when he got rude... I sd sorry gotta go, talk to you later- that is prob. another big mistake of mine in HIS BOOK.... so he might not go to counseling monday..

Big loss , right?

Anyway- he will get something in the mail from cs soon, in 3 -4 weeks and I want to give him a kind warning, to which he will explode.... I will say I care about him and don't want to hurt him and am only doing this so the kids will get the support they deserve from him or something like that.... He is and has been lying about his income 4ever... I didn't get much of his 50k severance ck he got last Jan., and since then he's basically lived on that and unemploy. and side jobs.... here and there work. He tole me unemploy was only around 100 or so a month... maybe 200- shows what a sucker I am after the one call yesterday to unemploy to find out what he wuold get based on his income...

Anyway.. I would of loved the 300 that would of legally brought me, and half of the severance too....

Anyway- I am tired, tired and more tired... of the saga- and don't want to enable him not paying for his kids support... He says well, you make more money, and half of that is legally mine.. yada yada.... etc.

It is just bizarre- who knows he may run out and get the next ow now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

If he does I don't think I will be caring much, but feeling sorry for her.

I still have love for him and some respect, for who he was... who he is??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

My parents were fine and respectful of me today... but my mom did overstep one boundary.... I thought anyway... she had sat my younger son by her and not me... I was a bit offended... funny it was solved when he pushed to get his brother to move and he sat by his mommy... I was glad.. he didn't stay at the table long,.... I think this is b/c she feels so close to him b/c she is his caretaker... granny... m-f while I work... which is 10+ hours a day at time... at least 10 usually... I hate this, but I have to work.... She is better with him than a childcare would be, and he is doing real well and is very smart b/c she used to be a teach er and diagnostician... and she does a great job with him... she may not of even realized I would be offended that he was not next to me, but he is 4.... Anyway...

I will be back later after I reread and digest BR- I want to respond more.

Thanks for your kind and loving response.
Happy TDay! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Honey

OK, Have reread and thought some more.

I want to thank you again for your thoughtful response BR.

I definitely was not allowed to FEEL as a child... or DEMAND... or anything that was not ACCEPTABLE... RULES were the way things are, and still are in some areas... at least my mother thinks they still are.

I am now an adult , in case some of you were wondering <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> hehe, and do draw quite a few boundaries with my family... in fact in the beginning of my marriage.. I was thrilled to be living in GA...

I had escapted the CONTROLLERS...

They have not at all been controlling about the house being in their name... except for one incidence which was a real blow to my h and even me... but I kind of knew things might turn out better their way....

We had a fire... well since my parents legally own the house, but it was OUR house... etc. Anyway, My dad is experienced in remodeling, etc. and took over as the general contractor on the house for the repairs to save us money ... and get us more bang fr the buck and get a good job done... it was true... it all happened, and the results are a much nicer house and much more done with the insurance money than had we hired a company to be the Gen. contractor, etc.... but my h... had a blow to being the man... My dad took charge and got me all kinds of things I wanted, the right paint, the right floors, etc. Now my h helped quite a bit with finding and getting the right floors, as he had floor expereince... but had we owned the House... my dad would not of been doing all of this... and he really , in a nice way, insisited that he help us... this is a talent of his.. he has added onto his own house in the past with his own hands doen much of the builders - is an engineer and just good at this kind of thing ..

Anyway blow to h... other things they do for me are a blow to him... much of what they do is nice. I think he feels bad he can't do this for me, and wants to... but truth is, he can't.... I don't know that he wants to anymore....

Anyway..I still have a strained relationship with my parents who aren't good at emotional connection.. they GIVE ME STUFF...

that has been their way of communicating love to me thorugh out my life... I now see this,... they are kind and nice.. and not total ogars.. but they have HIGH expectations of themselves and me... and are quite successful... they do do a lot right...

But were never there for me as an emtional shoulder.. even with the seperation going on- they aren't my emotional support.. they expect me to have the stiff upper lip, and SURVIVE and thrive....

I was always punihsed severley if I did not conform as a child... and I was never listened to about how I felt... etc.

Now this is a big issue.. you have helped me reidentify.. I 've thought about this stuff before but your post is bringing it up br.

I cried for the first time in my life after Jim and I married.. I was always a strong one, the oldest myself.. and never cried..> i was tough.
Well no one would of listened.

Anyway... Jim did listen some... so I got needy- and did do like you BR and be extra needy to him.. and he was there for me... in ways my family never was... I guess this is a big reason I hate that he is gone... HE was my best friend and someone who really understood me... Now he has turned on me... period... I guess because I got cold and demanding to him LIKE my parents when he messed up.... I got tough and wanted him to FIX it and suck it up... and do right... and I demanded it..

Anyway.... I am losing track a bit,- of what I am thinking... on this track.. but it helps to go here and think on these things.. the parents who helped me get to be me, and why I want to be with a man like this...

My parents never cussed at me, or each other.. they did yell.. well mother did... I had no control over her harshness as a child.. it does remind me of my H... My mother is the one who def. has an alcoholic grandfather... although a succesful man, who everyone loved, and was known to give the shirt off his back to a strnager.... much like my h... in a good mood... I am wondering... was he mean to his own, my great grandfather... and I don't know? Is this deep dark secret something I will never know. I knew this man as a child, and everyone loved him.

Although his runnings with women were sad... he had a somewhat 'trashy' gfriend in his old age after his wife died.... everyone didn't like that... there was a suicide over a woman by one of my grtgrandfathers sons.. my grandfathers brother... now there is an issue? but all even before my mother was born... At his 90's bdays... everyone would bring the man liquor.. and I was there... as a child- that was just Pa.... and he was the sweetest man in the world according to my family.. everytime I visited as child he ga ve me money to go to the store and buy candy... I don't even know anymore.. but I( know he had to be alcoholic... and it had to cause some issues...

Well- you do have me thinking br.... my grandparents did not drink a lot that I know of... on both sides.. but perhaps there are missing links...

My mother used to pull me aside and warn me I could become alcoholic if I didn't be careful b/c it was in my family... haven't heard that in a while... but she did bring it up in my teens...

who knows?

I am thinking on this.

Thanks BR.

Honey

I told him nicely ... I am not trying to hurt you, I just need you to pay your fair share for child support.. and you can't just make me take care of your responsibilities...

He sd... well we are married, you have more money than me... that is one comment.

Also sd.. I will just go ahead and file for a D. I want half the furniture now... - he knows this is a button-

sd he won't go to counelsing now... just doesn't want to be with me , period.. this shows him... another reason...

---- In the end we agreed he could pick up the kids fri = sun and he now claims if I have good enough behavior during these interchanges he will consider counseling...

woohoo ,... I am jumping up and down expecting the man I married to come out of the alcoholics body any minute now, right? I am also sure there will be no more money until required by law.. but I will survive.. not that the 100 a month was a whole lot....

he went into how the courts will see that I have way more than him and that he lives at poverty level and his substititue job will only yield 65 a day- for a man far more capable..> i wonder what the problem is... it is that he can survive on the low income and side jobs and be lazy and drink... I do think???

Anyway.... I am upset that he threatened divorce over this... I sd I just think it is only fair, and you want to support hyour kids , right?

Anyway, very diff.... we'll see if he goes on monday at 5pm.

I just got brave and told him... wanted him to know.

thanks for being here. H

Just had to add.. he told me I am so stupid , emotionally stupid for doing this. Whatever? Had at least 2 cuss words in the converstation... to which I responded, you cannot and will not talk to me that way... his answer... what ya gonna do, hang up on me? What ya gonna do about it? Great guy, right?

H

Honey,

Happy Thanksgiving

Just some comments ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">his answer... what ya gonna do, hang up on me? What ya gonna do about it? Great guy, right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what did you do ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am jumping up and down expecting the man I married to come out of the alcoholics body any minute now, right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not just an alcoholic body, it's an alcoholic's emotional makeup and an alcoholic's spiritual condition.

D.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect that they have interfered, bossed, controlled and manipulated you and your husband to the point that he will NOT come home to face that again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suggest that in the counseling, acknowledge and affirm the problems that your parents may have caused...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BR,

I know it's easy to blame others for our situations, especially our parents, but Honey is accountable for her own actions. She is a big girl. Honey has allowed her parents to be overly involved in her life so why should they not feel obligated to control it. They must feel that she is apparently incapable of controlling it herself or she would have weaned herself from them years ago.

Honey,

Your parents will always control your life so long as YOU allow them to. They will continue to control your life so long as you are emotionally and financially dependent on them.

Until YOU can show the ability to stand on your own two feet you can expect to be controlled by your parents.

You continue to receive finacial support from them and they have put a roof over you and your childrens heads. Your WS is making NO effort to provide you with either of those things.

I'm sure I'll get a little backlash from this comment but, so long as your parents are contributing to your life by providing you with money, food, shelter, babysitting services, etc. they have every right to have a say in how you lead your life. If you don't like it...wean yourself from them and be accountable for yourself. The situation you are in is no ones fault but your own.

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ November 29, 2002, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

delete

<small>[ November 29, 2002, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

willgetthru this... I got off the phone and sd I could not talk to him.. if he was going to cuss, etc. We arranged for him to have the kids..

SOmehow my feelings are just going away for him....

I don't like who he is now... I am tired of the meanness and tired of trying to prove I can be a better wife.. Tired of a man who will not work hard to provide for his kids... and leave me with a credit mess and financial mess due to his irresposnibleness--

Unfortunately I was raised to believe my husband would provide for me financially... I am awakening... I certainly do not mind working and enjoy it.. but time with my kids has been something I wanted, and has put me back fiancially.

Ba has still hit a nerve.. I am tight financially to provide the standard of living we have had before... DO YOU ADVISE I pay childcare and tell my mother , a loving mother... albeit with boundary issues... NO THanks mom.. even though my 4 yr old is reading and you drive him to a wonderful day care 2 days a week that I could not .. b/c of my job... preschool that is... at a nice church... NO THANKS MOM.... you got his haircut .. and JIM IS MAD that you help me with the loan situation on my house????? And JIm is so irrespsonible that I think I will leave my nice home to go live with him in the getto?

ANyway...

thanks... HOney

Honey,

I'm not advising anything to you. YOU know what you need to do to gain control of your life back. YOU know what you need to do in order NOT to be dependent on WS, Mom or Dad for ANYTHING. YOU just don't want to go there because then YOU will be accountable for everything that you do in your life.

All I'm saying is that your parents are no more to blame for your predicament then I am. As adults, WE choose our paths and YOU chose yours.

Your parents didn't put you in this situation. Your WS didn't put you in this situation. You walked right into it fully aware that this man that you married was an alcoholic. His first marriage failed because of it. When he could no longer support you, you began to rely on your parents and you still do.

You seem to want this faery tale, lived happily ever after marriage with your high school Sweetheart who simply doesn't exist anymore. That's not who he is any longer. You've said it yourself, that he is not the wonderful man you once knew. He is married to alcohol.

Start depending on yourself for a change. (oops! that's advice isn't it?) But guess what? You can always count on your parents. Right now they have every right to control your life so long as you are dependent on them.

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

BA---- You don't get it... you are being harsh and I don';t want to argue...

My parents do not control my life... I have a good and bad relationship with them.. getting better all the time...

My husband is an alcoholic.. NO I did not know the seriousness of his disease when I married him.

I understand you have alcoholic relatives, correct? I am sorry you choose to take out your anger/ resentment at them... your issues, etc. on me for how I am dealing/ living.

Yes, I am working on getting house in my name.. yes I do pay the mortage and have for the whole time I lived here.. the financing is all my parents helped with.. my parents do not CONTROL me... they are controlling, and I have boundaries.. my financial predictament because of an alcoholic husband places me in the place of needing some help temporarily... YOu are talking to an independent person... who is more of a caretaker than a taker... always....

I am sorry your posts offend.... I don't like taking loan assistance/ or even the free childcare from my family... but they do love me, and are not trying to control from those perspectives... they just do too much. I am drawing boundaries.. and yes, there will be no more haircuts without honey's permission....

My mother has issues... but I am not going to tell my family to go away and I don't want or need their help.. when life is hard.

Seriously BA- have you ever been a single mom?

Thanks, I know you are trying to be kind... my whining about my problems may make you think I am doing nothing about them... but you don't know me that well... I am making progress and doing a lot to change things...

My sin and mistake is LOVING MY alcoholic too much, and being willing to be too much of a doormat to make it work... he wants someone to take care of him.. not be an equal partner... at least not for the standard of life I want and expect... If I were willing to live substandard to my standards, and let my kids suffer too.... which they still do... due to his lack of resposibility and alcoholism... then .... I would be even worse...

For now, in transition to complete financial indepenendece... ie.. home loan in my name... which I cant do until I decide if I will be married or not... b/c jim will try to take my home????? Ok?

It is a mess.. and some of your words sting and hurt... I am not sure if you realize you are seeming to attack me. I am doing the best I can one day at a time... God is not finished with me yet, and I am a work in progress....

I am not some big loser... and my relationship with an alcholic who has backset me finanically, bad credit situations, etc... I am paying off my h's repossed car.. a bmw mind you, that I cosigned on.... Was I stupid to believe him that he would make the payments? YES... WOuld I believe him again, NO.

I am sorry you don't see my progress.. and like to attack my revealed weaknesses.. perhaps I am too sensitive... it is just you may not see or know the whole picture... here I am trying to explain more... so you might.. but it doesn't really matter... I am progressing a nd doing well... I miss him, I love him... but HE IS BAD FOR ME AND THE KIDS... sad, but true.

Alcoholism destroys families and lives. Hugs to you and your pain as well... I am sorry for being a bit emotional..

Your words are true, and I do want complete seperation from my family due to the loan.. but the childcare ends as much... will be much less a my younger son starts kindergartern soon.. My mother is a retired teacher and my son reads and writes thanks to Mom.... etc. He is doing better... only better person to care for him would be me.... in truth. My mom and dad love me, just have boundary issues.... yes, this is a work in progress.


Thanks for the input. Honey

Honey,

I may sound harsh but it is not my intent to take "issues" out on you. That would be inappropriate. I reply based on what I read from you yourself throughout your many threads.

I think it's great that you have FINALLY filed for CS. I would support your plan A if I didn't continually see you spinning your wheels. Your WS seems to dictate your plan A and what HE would like to see change in you. What about HIM?? What is he doing to improve himself? Certainly, he is not giving up alcohol and making any effort to become the financially stable, loving husband and father that you would like for him to be. What is HIS plan A?

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks for the response again BA-... I appreciate your input and thanks for recognizing my progress with filing for CS.... Yes, he is mad.. and maybe he won't want to be married.. who reallhy wants a h who won't support his kids, right? Claiming, oh poor me - can't make as much as you... I have no choice but to work....

Sorry I am so upset at H... not you BA- the family issues do pull a nerve for me... b/c NO, I do not want help from them... but my STUPID love for this man .... and my CONTROLLING family.... are issues for me... and I do have to work to get out of the fiancial hole I am in, due to continually placing my trust in a man who shouldn't of been trusted.

In truth, he probably married me so I would take care of him. SAD.

One counselor told me it is not a mystery that a dependent man would marry me... a caretaker, a hardworker... a usually succesful person... he wanted that... A MOTHER.

Anyway, I hate to face that... as he has professed.. in the past undying love and romantic love to me... but do I get that anymore? NO.

Thanks for supporting me, I apologize if I am sensitive on the family issues.. the last thing I want is help from anyone.. but due to my mistakes.. I have having to take some help for the time being so my kids don't suffer too much....

Thanks for being here... I will be financially free again.

I have my apps into law school and may be returning and I am working daily to get a higher pyaing job with the mba.... I am growing out of my depression over this MAN... who I thought would be my husband and my partner... who instead chooses alcohol, women or blame on me... as his life.

Thanks again.. I know I am quite emotional and still stressed over this. I appreciate every input, even that that hurts..a bit... I need it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I appreciate the help... and apologize if I come off defensive, I am growing out of it! I just want my life back! and I am reclaiming it one day at a time.

Today I am putting up beautiful vinyl that looks like tile in my kitchen on the backsplash.. tomorrow my family.. dad and sister are coming to help wallpaper.. my sister and I are learning.... to wallpaper.. so we can help each other after my dad teaches... one day in my kitchen....

I am going to see how many copies I can afford at the kodak picture maker copier to copy some family albums for ws... One today if I can afford.. he has two of my albums he has held hostage since early plan a.... when I wanted to be nice.. I advise only giving copies to ws. He returned one of three albums claiming / blackmailing that I make copies until he returns the others... GEE WHAT A NICE GUY? I took and mad e the albums... yes they are of happy days of us and the kids.. but the man is being cruel.. I have asked him to pay for the pic's/./// of cuorse he can't afford to.. or won't...so here I go making copies to get my albums back.... UGH... but I want them back! I am tired of his manipulations.....

Anyway..... thanks again... I see him at 6 to pick up kids.. and frankly. I am SO ANGRY that he is destrying my family I wanted.. but without major CHANGE IN HIM... he couldn't be a good H or dad even if he came home... it is the drinking.. he needs help.

Thanks... H

I'm so proud of you Honey, you've given yourself a wonderful Xmas present...yourself and your life back. You'll get to were you want to be, you have it in you. You sound great, bravo! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Honey - As I just sat here reading your posts a question came to mind - And I thought I would ask - because it comes to me all of the time - Here goes - Do you really want Jim?? I mean I know that you love him and you thought that you were going to be together forever ! But really if he wanted to come back tomorrow - would you take him back?? Would you trust him?? Would you be able to live with the person that he has become now today?? Are you afraid to let him go?? Are you afraid that he is the only one for you or the only one that you want??? I know that I can honestly say that is how I feel and that is why I get so upset - I miss my husband, I love my husband, But in all honesty - I could not take him back tomorrow - he has lied to me, cheated on me, I don't know who he is now??? I think you are starting to sound great... I think that it is time for us the WS - to become selfish for once in our lives.... Don't you think ?? Wouldn't it be nice to have someone care for us once in awhile?????