Honey -

Sometimes an analogy is the best way I have of describing your situation. I would like to offer one to those who post to you and see if it fits -

Honey is gaining strength and confidence as she emotionally separates from her H for the first time in some 15 years. It's like someone who is walking on an iced over lake for the first time. She has seen and heard of others doing it, but until she does it.... will it support her weight or not? Gently taking small steps until she feels confident in the lake (ie. her self confidence) to make the next bigger, bolder steps.

God made us all different for a reason. Some of you would have walked away from this M long ago. Maybe that is right, maybe that is wrong. But, do not place those expectations on others. IMHO, you can not judge Honey as a mother, wife, or person based on what is typed here. And that is all we have to go on. Therefore, your opinions are welcomed, but don't get those opinions confused with judgemental tones and words.

Note how Honey's steps are getting bigger and bolder:

1. Writes down her boundaries
2. Gets H to agree to counseling
3. Files for CS
4. Gets written agreement from H to not drink and drive with kids
5. Gets back into Alanon and is working her steps
6. and on... ?????????????

Honey, you know the people here mean well. But just remember, keep your side of the street clean. Others may tell you how to do it, but it is YOUR decision as to how it gets done.

Remember the Rocky movie where he runs up the steps? You can see the steps a comin'.

Drink a couple of raw eggs each mornin' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !

Gib - Functioning Alcoholic

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Gibby1 ]</small>

Thanks Gib,

It has been hard these last few days.. deciding to make that written agreement with H.. but in some ways it empowers both of us... HE GETS TO PROVE he is NOT SO BAD now.. with boundaries and rules. I get to trust him to do what he says he will do- which used to be almost gospel at one time.

Rebuilding trust is a big issue for most of us mbers, and I do agree with my counselor.. if we can't start doing that... how will we ever be togehter and having a good marriage.

Thanks for all the opinions.

I realize sometimes my venting and all the bad I type here... does not at all mention the good man I did marry, and that makes some of you more apt to think he is a bad man.. based on the actions I have gotten lately.. which are typical of alcoholics and wspouses.

I am doing way better, and some of that is in response to a lot of the input I get here.

Thanks for being supportive and helpful... ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> even parts of the harsher posts help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am even getting more functional in my life and at my job, etc. I am getting back to being me.. without hitting h over the head with a club and telling him how bad he is- I am detaching with love and building boundaries that work for me.

Thanks, H

Honey, you keep talking about wanting the man you married. Face reality - the man you married does not exist anymore. The reality of it is that you do not like the man that your husband has become or is.

I would imagine that every criminal, drunk, drug addict was/has been a good person at some time in their life. They chose not to develop that "good" person. And yes I know, I have an alcoholic brother and a drug addicted brother. They do have good traits even with their addictions. I've never heard you post even one good trait of your alcoholic husband as he is today. Just that he USED to be a good man.

There is no one here that is the same person they were 10, 20 years ago. I would like to think that I have grown and improved with age. Some improve and some don't through the course of life. I look back and see a LOT of faults and problems with the woman that my husband married. I guess that is what 20/20 hindsight is about. I feel that I am much more patient, kinder, mellow, etc. in our marriage and in life in general.

I guess you could say I am content in my life. I have no desire to go back to my highschool years, early marriage, or any other time or phase.

Whether you save your marriage or not, you need to quit seeking the man that you married and look for one that can become an equal partner TODAY.

Becontent- My h has a million good qualities- here are a few current ones:

1. He wants to work on and save our marriage and is committed to indefinite counseling to do that.

2. He loves our boys and wants the best for both of them.. including an environment that is peaceful and happy.

3. He is extremely intelligent.

4. He has treated me better than anyone I have ever known- I admit this is in the past currently... but it tends to build a strong case for who he is capable of being.. and why the FOG... and other problems... have affected who he is to me right now.

5. For 17 of the 18 yrs I have known him has been willing to lay his life down for me.

6. Still available if I need him for emergencies for me or the kids.

7. He has never stopped telling me he loves me.

8. He has celebrated even special occassion there is with me this yr even in the seperation.

9. We have seen each other the whole time throughtout the seperation.

10. He has and continues to write me love songs.

11. He is continuing to look for good employment.

12. Very fun to be with.

13. Takes kids and me to park- even now.

14. Takes me to lots of nice dinners, etc.

15. Romantic

16. Has given me a foot bath.. now this has been a while... he used to treat me like a complete princess.. sorry I can't forget it.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

17. I happen to be the woman he has loved the most for most of his life.

18. He is the father of my children.

19. He is my husband.

20. He is the love of my life.

Sorry about my ventings here that make him sound so bad... he is wonderful.

There is lots more... jewelry, candlelight dinners
- everything a woman would want...

<<My h has a million good qualities- here are a few current ones:

1. He wants to work on and save our marriage and is committed to indefinite counseling to do that. Huh? Did I miss something here? A man who's committed to counseling DOES NOT threaten to skip appointments when he feels slighted by you. He doesn't dangle the lure of him actually going to counseling in front of you like a carrot .

2. He loves our boys and wants the best for both of them.. including an environment that is peaceful and happy. This is only true as long as it doesn't get in the way of what HE wants...he loves himself more and is more concerned with HIS happiness then his boys. Otherwise he'd step up to the plate and support the boys instead of shirking his financial (let alone emotional) responsibilities.

3. He is extremely intelligent. Perhaps. But what does intelligence matter if you fail to use it?

4. He has treated me better than anyone I have ever known- I admit this is in the past currently... but it tends to build a strong case for who he is capable of being.. and why the FOG... and other problems... have affected who he is to me right now. It's time to STOP thinking in terms of who is capable of being. This line of reasoning is akin to saying that "I'm CAPABLE of winning the lottery at some indeterminate point in the future, so I'll refuse to get a job to earn money NOW."

5. For 17 of the 18 yrs I have known him has been willing to lay his life down for me. But at what price Honey? Because right now he's willing to lay down YOUR BOY'S lives, all because he'd rather drink and drive. Think about it.

6. Still available if I need him for emergencies for me or the kids. You don't need him...you are a bright, capable woman...depend on YOU!!!

7. He has never stopped telling me he loves me. So what? Back the words up with actions buddy, then maybe it will actually MEAN something.

8. He has celebrated even special occassion there is with me this yr even in the seperation. Why should he get a special pat-on-the-back for this? This is basic stuff...I mean, how much of a strain is it to be around foir the fun stuff?

9. We have seen each other the whole time throughtout the seperation. Perhaps it would have been better to NOT see each other throughout the separation...otherwise what is the point of a separation? Could it be it just freaks him out that you can take care of yourself?

10. He has and continues to write me love songs. Again, I say so what? Words are only words...whether or not they're in song form. Back it up with actions and then I'll be impressed.

11. He is continuing to look for good employment. Oh really?? Ask to see a record of where he's sent his resume...where are the rejection letters from all these places who've turned him down for "good employment?" Shouldn't he, at this point, just be concerned with ANY job...he needs to support his children for God's sake. Right now, even flipping burgers would be a good job...because he'd be doing the right thing.

12. Very fun to be with. You've got a weird sense of fun...enough said.

13. Takes kids and me to park- even now. You seem to be grasping at straws. The park?? You're kidding...what about giving you some real child support?

14. Takes me to lots of nice dinners, etc. If this is true, tell me again why he continues to shirk his responsibilities by making you support the boys on your own??

15. Romantic Threats, manipulation, childish behavior, drunk driving, sleeping around, no job, need I go on? This man is playing you...NOT romancing you.

16. Has given me a foot bath.. now this has been a while... he used to treat me like a complete princess.. sorry I can't forget it.... This is what day spas are for...treat YOURSELF. Oh wait, I forgot...you have no money because you're supporting the house, kids, all of it and he doesn't help.

17. I happen to be the woman he has loved the most for most of his life. He sure has a funny way of showing it.

18. He is the father of my children. I don't think the word "father" is appropriate here...fathers bear their portion of child support happily, fathers don't get drunk in front of their children, fathers don't drive drunk, fathers don't cause 10 year olds to get so twisted up about family dynamics that they start to lie, fathers don't go out and screw other women, fathers do more than go to the park, fathers RESPECT their children's mothers.

19. He is my husband. No, right now he is another one of your children.

20. He is the love of my life. He is the love of your life...SO FAR. I get the feeling you are in the trap of thinking he is/was the best you'll ever have. Not so.

Hi Honey,

I've been following your saga for a long time...been an underground lurker. But your refusal to take a REAL, hard, honest look at your situation has finally gotten me off my behind and prompted me to register and write to you. Yes, I know you've come a long way in figuring your situation out...the boundaries, alanon, etc, and you are to be commended so much for that...but I (and probably LOTS of others here) would love to see you soar...to see you celebrate the person YOU are and who you can be...WITHOUT crapping all over yourself for Jim.

It's time to quit taking baby steps towards improving your life. And as much as I hate the thought of jumping on the Dr. Phil bandwagon, it's time to GET REAL...no more excuses. And your previous post is just one big, head-in-the-sand excuse. I know, I know...it hurts to hear that. But you know how the general consensus has been that Jim needs a can of whoop-[censored] opened up on him? Well, YOU DO TOO!

I know you'll probably b***h and moan and hate what I have to say, and want me to understand and quit being mean and that I just don't see the whole picture. And that's fine. Hate me all you want (hey, that's the beauty of internet anonymity, right?). If any of what I'm saying will GET YOU MAD, GET YOU OFF YOUR REAR, SPUR YOU TO ACTION, then you hating me is worth it.

All the best - miss wakeup

Honey:

Since Miss Wakeup addressed most of J's good qualities, I will pass. But I want to make another effort for the kids. You can build J up all you want, but What you have said about your 10 year old speaks VOLUMES. Please listen to him if you will not listen to anyone else.

Quoting you about your son (and there's more):
"he lies"
"tries to get his father in trouble"
"wants you to divorce him"
"hates his neighborhood"
"calls them freaks"
"hates his church"

What that tells me and should be telling you is that this kid has seen a bunch of crap, and he is SICK of it. No doubt, he has seen more in his 10 years than I have probably seen in my 47. But you know what, I do know it takes a whole LOT to make a kid (or anybody) say and do these things about a parent or loved one. It just isn't normal to hate your father.

At the very least, he needs some help in dealing with his feelings. Surely if you can find marriage counseling, you could find something or someone for your son(s). There is FREE help out there for kids - FIND IT. You son is fast approaching an age where he will resist help but he needs it desparately. Hate and anger are destroyers as you well know.

Please help your son(s). If your 10 year old is where he is, there is no doubt that you 4 year old has issues. Jim can help himself if he so chooses.

Forgive me - Is this site called Marriage Wreckers?

Thanks, H

Honey you don't have a marriage, but you do have a son that CANNOT get the help he needs without you.

becontent,

My son is getting the help he needs thank you very much. I am not here to get advice for my son or negativity vibes from you. I wish you the best and would hope you would see that your comments are harsh and hurtful. Thanks for your insight.

A few words I have posted about my son's attitudes... does not tell you my or my son's life story. I appreciate your guise of concern, however, I do think there is some reason why you are so overly concerned- Were you raised by an alcohlic parent? I don't know.....?

H

Thanks for asking, but my parents are teetotalers. I was raised in a very "normal" (if there is such as thing) Christian home. About as perfect as parents can get.

Honey which is it - he is getting help or you can't afford it. Do you want me to link to all the posts where you have said you could not afford help for your son.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am trying to get older son back into counseling </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Posted Dec. 2nd

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am also about to get insurance again- hopefully by January for me and the kids, halalujah! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">posted Nov. 25th (this was posted in regard to counseling

Just like one posted in a previous post:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what frustrates everyone Honey...your 180 degree flips as you try desperately to force reality to fit your self-will. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> fantastic contortions </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really don't see that my words are harsh or hurtful - you know the saying about the truth hurting is quite true.

I agree (what do you know I AGREE with you) that the few words you have posted about your son doesn't tell it all. BUT, the few words speak VOLUMES.

If you think I am overly concerned, I may very well be. If the adults in the world don't protect the children who will? I will do my part to help you see that YOUR kids are affected by your choices (and Jim's), and that he is showing BIG RED FLAGS about needing help. I will take everything and anything you want to dish out in order to help YOUR son. He is the INNOCENT victim in this, and his chances to a successful and rewarding life are nil unless you CHOOSE to help him. At least it will be a rough ride to a successful adulthood. You know the odds are in his favor to be an alcoholic without all this anger and hate towards his father.

<small>[ December 05, 2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: becontent ]</small>

Becontent- Be content with you and leave me alone... as you can tell for another time around here.. your advice is not all that helpful to me. Picking a person apart on a support forum.. where you do not have the full picture.. but lots of venting for support- is more the full pic.

I do not appreciate your taking a sentence here or there and some of the worst parts of my life and trying to make me feel bad... which you aren't... I do admit... I WONDER WHY YOU ARE HERE?

BTW- you are not helping MY SON and NEVER WILL- if you care so much about him... stop aggravating his mother. Thanks.

U have no affairs posted under your name and here to learn... WHY? Are you studying for a thesis or are you a pocket therapist with bad advice?

Which is it. Why bother me, when you tone continues to aggravate?

Thanks and good luck in your perfect life with your perfect family... from your judgementalness.. I can only imagine where you came from...

Luck and goodbyes..

H

<small>[ December 05, 2002, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

It's simply ludicrous for anyone to keep replying. Honey is not listening to ANYONE, nor will she listen to anyone, she only wants to hear what she wants to hear and none of what she wants to hear will help her any.

Honey needs lots of attention and any replies she gets here are simply feeding that need and not helping. It is clear as day that Honey doesn't want help she just wants attention.

Her situation parallels that of a battered woman who won't leave her abuser. Nothing anyone says or does will do one iota to get her to do what she needs to do. She's got to get to the point of wanting help all by herself. Nothing any of us says will make a difference. She's shown us that loud and clear for quite some time now.

I tend to be a cynic but from all the conflicting, inconsistent information she gives and the way she chases her life in a circle I am really starting to wonder if this whole charade is for real. I've seen MBers have their chains yanked many times in the past and this has been looking like one of those situations for quite some time now.

If she is for real then we certainly aren't doing her any good by continuing to do what we have been doing . Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Replying and pleading with Honey makes no differnce. Oh, maybe for a few days she will post that she's "changed" but when push comes to shove nothing's really changed at all. It's back to the same old thing. This has gone on for a very, very long time.

Again, if she's for real she's way beyond what help a message board can offer. There's lots of newbies here that want and need help. Please those of you with wonderful insight and the energy to post here, help them, they want it and need it.

If she is for real I feel so sorry for her children. To have both parent be so screwed up those poor kids aren't going to stand a chance.

I agree but her kid really does show signs of needing some help. Honey, you are back in the cycle of slamming the poster when you really don't like what they have to say. Heck I am so honored she started a thread just for me.

Just one more point, this place is called Marriage Builders, and I have yet to see where an affair is a membership requirement. If you don't mind, please point it out to me.

Mthrrhbard,I will take your advice and devote my time elsewhere. By the way, I like your name. I only have two kids, one stepson, and another that I call mine but I have been motherhubbard to hoards of kids. They even call me "mom" when the come in.

becontent - I believe you have wonderful advice - even if you are only here to learn - I think you can offer much help to people who really want it - I always - felt the people who give the "harshest" advice is really the best advice - the advice that you don't want to listen to but when you read it - you like duh - that is what I need to do... I don't think Honey is going to get the message either - she gets really, really angry - and starts telling people off - then bam - someone posts something to agree with her and she is right back saying thank you - they just don't understand....Sometimes - Honey people outside of the situation have a much clearer picture than the people involved. Actually some of the best advice I ever received regarding my husband came from my nine year old because she saw things so clearly...

Honey,
I posted earlier that the contract is good, and I think it is, because, done correctly all your expectations are clearly defined.

My H & I used a contract in 1/99. His PA went on another 9 months. We separated 5 more times.

The contract obviously was broken...but the expectations in that contract were among those things that my H finally did as we did reconcile in 5/00.

It really is Jim's & your follow-through over weeks and months that is important here.

Lor (Lor).

With all due respect, I believe that the contract is too risky. Your contract being broken did not run the risk of two innocent lives being lost. It would only take that "1" time of that contract being broken for those boys to be in a vehicle with a drunk behind the wheel. That "1" time could be the time that a contract is not simply broken; but, that two young boys lives could be lost. Is it really worth that risk?

I believe that is what all the posters are trying to say in regards to that contract. It is a useless piece of paper when the one time being broken results in such a disaster. She can talk all she wants about dealing with it when it is broken; but, hopefully not while planning funeral arrangements for her children.

It only takes that "1" time for a life (or in this case, 2 lives) to end.

She is not simply giving him "1" chance. She is willing to risk her children "1" time. I don't know about you, but that would be 1 time too many for me.

JMHO
committed

<small>[ December 05, 2002, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

Committed,
I tend to think of "starting places". This contract seems like that to me. In no way do I believe that the contract is the answer. In reality, I have no faith in it at all (my experience) but it is better than not defining what is and is not acceptable.

It's in black & white, witnessed by the counselor, and neither can say "I didn't mean THAT".

My advise to Honey is to go to a lawyer to get sole custody, or to have the transfers take place at one of those secure places--that will check if he's sober.

She doesn't want to do that.

The boys have to be safe.

So...a "starting place". Reality check. Awareness. Options. Legalities.

Lor (Lor)

My advise to Honey is to go to a lawyer to get sole custody, or to have the transfers take place at one of those secure places--that will check if he's sober.

Wonderful Wonderful suggestion!!!

2 thumbs up for that one.

Always,
committed

Lor- a thanks for your ideas and suggestions. I appreciate all your insight.

Anyone I am not mentioning ... I also appreciate except for those throwing arrows at me. I am a real live human being, I make mistakes... I want my marriage.. but not at my children's expense... .. etc. etc. etc.

Thanks,

H