He will tell me he’s “sorry he hurt me,” and “sorry he neglected me,” and -- most of all --
“sorry he wasn’t paying attention.”

Well, okay, but long ago I realized what I was *not* hearing. I asked him to please tell me it was wrong. To please tell me he regretted putting her in his car. To please tell me he wishes he had spent his extra time at work with me instead of with her. Things like that.

He WILL NOT do this. He gets VICIOUSLY, VIOLENTLY ANGRY if I dare to suggest he should. It ENRAGES him that I want him to apologize like this. It INFURIATES him that I want to hear him tell me it was wrong.

I am at a total loss to explain this. How can you love someone, and look at them and tell
them you’re “sorry” in the general sense, and then react like this when something more is
needed to heal the damage?

I know you are all sick of hearing this from me. But I do not, not, not, understand this. It
makes no sense to me. He’s acting like he would rather walk out on me than have to tell
me that what he did was wrong.

I hope someone can help. I feel like my whole life is on the line here.

Does anyone want to admit they are wrong or that their actions are wrong? They don't!!! Demading it from him does not probably help or get you any where you need to be!!! So stop!!! Let it come to him naturally, it may take awhile, be patient!!! Hard I am sure!!!

Stop making him react and allow him to act!!!

My 2 cents for the night!!! Take them or leave them that is the choice we all have here at MB!!!

Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

PB
Trust me your H regrets his actions but telling you and admitting to it is not easy. He will have to truly accept responsibility for what he has done but he may not be doing so because he may still be foggy and is justifying what he did. You need to give him time to sort this out in his head. By you pushing him to tell you certain things the way YOU want to hear it will only drive him further away.

If you are making the atmosphere around your house the way it sounds in your posts, I would RUN RUN RUN if I was him. How can either of you heal if you are contstantly enraged with him and demanding he apologize for things with certain words and all, just to make YOU feel better.

What is the goal here? Maybe I missed something? Everything I did I accepted responsibility for, aplogized for and so forth but my H never demanded I do so, never demanded I hate the OP, or anything. I don't see how this is helpful to healing.

Do you forgive your H? He probably has not even forgiven himself for what he did. How long have you been in recovery?

You are making your life a living hell worse than it has to be. Do you want to save your marriage or do you want your H to get so fed up with your demands/behavior that he walks out on your for good. Think about this. I know that is not what you want. I hear your words PB and know you are in a great deal of pain and want to scream for 100 hours straight but doing all this is going to do what for your marriage and your well being???
A big fat nothing. Please Please...are you in any counseling? Your anger is evident. When was D-Day for you? Check on you later okay.

Please pray about this.

Zoey

<small>[ November 18, 2002, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Zoey ]</small>

I finally confronted him about this in May of 2000. Nothing really changed until many months later, when his job changed.

It is not all "demands" on my part. As recently as a week ago we were able to go out to a movie and dinner and have a good time. I am even allowed to ask questions about the places they went and the things they did, *as long as I do not expect to hear any regret or remorse attached to his answers.*

Often there will be a reasonable explanation, too, of why these things were no big deal and really ok and I should not have felt threatened by them.

If I say anything about how they were a big deal to me and I had every reason to feel threatened, well, he didn't mean to hurt me, and he really thought this was all normal business behavior, and he never planned to *permanently* replace me with any of these women, so I should feel much better now and that should be the end of it.

When this is clearly not the end of it for me -- because I have to live with knowing that this was the lifestyle he really wanted and that he honestly thought he could convince me to accept his being married at home and single at work -- that's when he gets furious.

Him: "I don't know how to fix this."

Me: "Of course you do. I don't understand how you can be sorry you hurt me, but not sorry you spent all the time you could at work with other women instead of me and lied to me so you could go off alone with them."

Him: "I don't know how to fix this."

Me: "It would mean mean everything to me to hear you say you wish you had never put her in your car and driven off alone with her."

Him (two inches from my face and snarling with rage:) I'M SORRY I PUT HER IN MY CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If anyone has any suggestions on how to live with a man who is clearly not sorry for years of fun he had with other women at my expense, I'm listening.

<small>[ November 18, 2002, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: psycho_b ]</small>

Should I send him something like this?

I am sorry.

I wanted the truth, and I got it, and I had no right to demand anything more.

I will never ask you about these things again. I know you don't believe that right now, but it's true.

It's true because I don't want to see our marriage destroyed and because I believe you will leave me if I don't back down.

I am sorry I interfered with your work life. I am sorry I enraged and infuriated you. I am sorry you hate the sight of me. But you will never have to worry about these things again.

I had to try. This was my marriage and my life. I had to try even if that meant fighting very, very hard. But that simply doesn't work.

Please don't expect me to be happy about this. The truth is extremely painful. It will take me a long time to find a way to deal with it. I will not ask you to help me with it ever again. That is simply not the way to go about it.

Please, please, please just leave me out of your work life so you don't have to deal with my pain ever again.

I will never ask you about these things again. I'm sorry I hurt you and enraged you.

PB
First off, I owe you an apology. I don't think Im fully aware of your situation and should be before I dispense advice...sorry

Just how many OW have there been? I was thinking only one. Tell me a brief summery of your story. I will try to help you

Let me say this. No matter how much we want to hear certain things whether we are the WS or BS, (IM THE WS), we may never get to hear them. You cannot force someone to say certain things, if you do, you will get the very reaction you get when you push him to say those things. Don't ruin your relationship before it has a chance to heal.

Tell me more and I will try to help you
Zoey

Psycho_B

I understand a little of where you are coming from, and as a BS you the right to ask questions to satisfy yourself, but there does come a point where the questions and asking for apologies becomes a punishment to the WS and a constant ever "throw it in your face" and "I'll never let you forget" type of dialogue. I can imagine my WW reacting not too pleasantly if I asked her to apologize for each and every time she decided to bed-down with our mutual friend, or for every bad decision she made in the process of her A's, but to what avail? She is sorry and she regrets it and I got the answers I wanted during the first couple of months after D-Day, so why beat a dead horse? If you trust the sincerity of your H's apologies and his efforts to heal and move on and make the marriage better, why keep throwing wet-towels on this?

I am not totally familiar with your entire story, but that's what I see here in this posting. JMO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by psycho_b:
<strong>
I asked him to please tell me it was wrong. To please tell me he regretted putting her in his car. To please tell me he wishes he had spent his extra time at work with me instead of with her. Things like that.

He WILL NOT do this. He gets VICIOUSLY, VIOLENTLY ANGRY if I dare to suggest he should. It ENRAGES him that I want him to apologize like this. It INFURIATES him that I want to hear him tell me it was wrong.

I am at a total loss to explain this. How can you love someone, and look at them and tell
them you&#8217;re &#8220;sorry&#8221; in the general sense, and then react like this when something more is
needed to heal the damage? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Boy, PB, I sure can relate to what you're saying. It was not long ago that my FWH and I had this same type conversation. There are very specific things that I feel I need to hear, apology-wise. What I feel I have gotten thus far is the general apology as well. I need more than this. I really do. I need to know that he is sorry for the specifics.

D-Day was about 1-1/2 years ago, contact continued after NC, which was about a year ago. I believe contact actually stopped some months back. While I do have a hard time dealing with the earlier stuff, the hardest stuff for me to deal with is what happened since the initial NC, because my FWH was the one who initiated that renewed contact. We were (supposedly) in recovery then. While he wasn't going to be with her at that point, he still felt strongly that he had to be in touch with her, and said many things that just about kill me to this day. THOSE are the things that I especially feel the need to be apologized to for.

I don't necessarily feel that he's really sorry for all of it - perhaps only sorry that he had to make a decision (eventually) and call it off with her, sort of. Sorry that he hurt me, but not sorry that he did it. Still needed/wanted to remain in touch with her, though. When I was just trying to learn to trust, he was lying to me all over again about continued contact. That's the part I don't think he understands for me, and the part that I really feel I need to hear regret and remorse over. And either he gives a general apology, or whatever, but I don't feel that he feels that remorse.

I've tried (on many occasions)to tell him that I need to hear reassurance. To me, reassurance includes letting me know that you are remorseful for what you've done to me. How can you claim to care about me now when I am not sure how you feel about having hurt me in the worst way possible? I guess reassurance means different things to the two of us. I really want him to acknowledge just how wrong all of this was. That in wanting to be with me, he does feel remorse for doing the things that hurt me so badly. This is where I relate to you so much, PB.

As I read on this website, I am continually struck by the FWS's who would say or do whatever it takes just to make things work. That is the WS's job. But that's not where I feel my FWS is coming from. And that hurts me. I finally tried to tell him the kinds of stuff I need to hear, and he got upset and angry that I am trying to tell him the words to say. He won't do that, and I don't blame him - it wouldn't be genuine. And I want it to be genuine - I genuinely want him to feel these things, and to say these things. He did say that he does want to say these things, but not on command. I know I need to be patient, but this has been going on a long time. I wind up feeling that he may just never say these things. Let's face it - if everything is going along fine, what are the chances that he's just going to decide to tell me how sorry he is for all the stuff he's done to me??

I just wind up feeling that the things that are important to me are not that important to him. I don't see the emotional attachment that I need to see. I don't see him caring about what I specifically need to hear.

I guess my biggest fear is that he's really not sorry about it all and never will be. Sorry that it caused me pain, yes, but not sorry that he did it. I find it nearly impossible to live with that.

Doesn't something we feel the need to hear in order to try to heal and move on count as a need?

MT

<<<I guess my biggest fear is that he's really not sorry about it all and never will be. Sorry that it caused me pain, yes, but not sorry that he did it. I find it nearly impossible to live with that.>>>

I am so glad you posted. At least I know I am not the only one. I feel exactly as you do. I could have written every word of your post. You said it much better than I did.

<<<Doesn't something we feel the need to hear in order to try to heal and move on count as a need?>>>

I sure thought it did. That's why I told him about it. I wanted him to help me through this, but I got almost literally kicked in the teeth instead.

I know there will never be anything I can do to change this. I feel he would rather leave me than have to say he's sorry when he's not. Yes, I wanted the truth, and I got it, but I was hoping somebody can tell me how I can live with a truth like that.

Zoey, the short version: my husband has a 10-year history of "inappropriate friendships" with the women he works with. I don't know how far any of them really went, but I do know he went to some lengths to hide them from me and would lie to me if he had to. He was married at home and single at work and very, very happy with this arrangement.

He says it has stopped now. I'm inclined to believe this. And it's not so much that he stupidly got mixed up with some office trash that hurts. It's how he tried to handle it once I finally started to object.

He spent years trying to convince me these things were really okay and I should not be worried about them because:

1) He was not in love with these women.

2) It wasn't physical. (The jury is still out on that one. He gets violently angry if I dare to bring it up.)

3) He wasn't planning on replacing me with any of them.

4) He never meant to hurt me, so I have no reason to feel hurt.

5) He has provided me with a very nice lifestyle.

6) He always came home to me at the end of the day.

For a long time after I confronted him he was very, very nice to me. I very stupidly thought it was because he was sorry and was trying to make me understand he would never do these things again.

I was horrified to realize that nothing had changed, all of his activities were still going on full-blown, and he had just been trying to reassure me I would still be in "first place."

He had no intention of stopping anything. He thought the solution to my being upset was to show me that all of this was really ok and these women were not a threat to me.

He was just trying to convince me I didn't have to worry about what he was doing at work, since he still loved me and would always come home to me at the end of the day.

The thought of this horrifies, enrages, and agonizes me to this day. And he still doesn't see what the problem is.

The women he thought were so wonderful are the usual complete and utter trash who dated a married man and cared nothing for what it would do to his family. But with the way he acted at work -- as if I didn't exist -- what were they supposed to think?

I swing from rage to despair because, as I've said, he'll never admit he was wrong. He'll never own up to what he really did. I told him I needed his help to get through this, but he can't help. You can't apologize when you're just not sorry.

As far as what I've learned from this -- people always say, "Why do you put up with this? Boy, I wouldn't!"

Well, I didn't put up with it either, and you know what? It didn't make one bit of difference. They will still go and do what they want to do, and do their best to convince themselves and you that their case is different and special. If you still don't like it you will be bullied and shouted down and threatened with abandonment.

That's what I've learned. And now I've got to learn some way to live with this, because I'm not willing to leave and there is nothing I can do to change the way he feels. And most likely he will be the one to leave if I can't back down.

Just curious as to why you won't divorce him? It seems like staying in a marriage like yours would be an awful way to live.

I don't advocate leaving someone.

BUT

10 years of this behavior. Thats abuse! Sorry but that is how I feel about it. He has made ZERO attempts to change or do anything to prove that he is NOT doing it.

His anger I see now what that stems from. He KNOWS he is guilty of alot. Perhaps he is scared you may find out more than he has told you.

Sorry to upset you but really. I think that this is grounds for moving on and no looking back. This is terrible.

Im so sorry I sort of jumped you for how you were towards him. Now I can clearly see why. I know my H would NEVER and I mean never put up with 10 years of this stuff. Oh my. I feel so bad for you.

Why won't you leave. May I ask..What is keeping you there other than you like torture. I don't know PB. I know this is not good.

I also don't know why your login name is PB. You are not a PB. You should change it to something that really reflects you. I bet you are a really sweet person and has been through hell and back in 10 years.

Change your name if you can to something more positive. Take care of yourself. I feel so sad for you. No wonder you are wanting him to say something concrete

Just how much can a person take. Im shocked you have stayed this long.

Are you in any counseling. This is really abusive to you. You deserve better, don't you think. Unless of course he has worn down your self esteem so badly that you don't know your own self any more.

Praying for you
Zoey

<<<He has made ZERO attempts to change or do anything to prove that he is NOT doing it.>>>

To be fair, I don't think he is doing this kind of stuff now. He and his last pal drifted apart after two years of fun when he got a different job and wasn't working with her anymore. It had little or nothing to do with my feelings, though he knew how I felt long before they finally cooled off.

I never see him at work, though. It's one of those big secure places where you don't go in if you don't work there. Not that I'd make it past the parking lot without throwing up anyway.

I have access to his work email and voice mail, but I never check them anymore. Why bother? Even if I do find something that is hurtful or humilating to me, he will just give me a carefully reasoned explanation of why this is really ok and normal and then get furious if I can't accept it.

I asked him to help me and he refused. It's like it's ok to betray me, but he will *never* betray these women by saying one negative thing about any of them or anything they did.

I can't fight him anymore. My work is suffering -- I am a novelist -- and so is my son. He is 14 and I need to be home for him.

Only have a minute will get back to you in the morning but thinking about you. I hope that you can find some peace somewhere in this mess. You deserve it. You should not have to suffer so much.

Praying for you
Zoey

bump

My take from reading this thread is that you cannot recover because you cannot trust him, because without remorse for what he has done, you have NO reason to believe he won't do it again, unless his desire not to hurt you is reason enough. Since he has not shown that he cares for you in ways you understand, and continues to verbally abuse you, you have no reason to believe his desire not to hurt you is reason enough. Your lack of trust is completely reasonable and rational.

If he is willing, I would suggest working through "Torn Asunder", by Carder, together. You might find "The State of Affairs" by Mulliken helpful, too, for you. Both books stress the place of and importance of remorse in recovery much more than Harley's SAA. Of course, if your H was doing a better job of protecting you from his anger now (as required by an SAA-compliant recovery), maybe you could trust him more and remorse would be less of an issue.

He has told me that because I was angry, it is my fault that HE is angry. If I'm going to show him my anger and pain over his actions with his women at work, then I can expect to get that anger right back because that's how it makes him feel and I had better understand that.

Yes, I am angry. I am angry because my husband spent ten years lying to me so he could spend time alone with other women. This has absolutely devastated me because I trusted him and, like everybody else here, never thought MY husband could do this to me.

But this is NOT a good enough reason for me to be so upset, according to him.

He says he didn't tell me about his harmless activities because he was afraid I might be "pissed off -- " you know, annoyed the way I might have been if he'd bounced a check or let the car run out of gas. He is furious with me because I have no right to be "this" upset with him. I am overreacting, there is something wrong with me, I'm the one who needs help and not him, I should have been over this long ago, he said he was sorry he hurt me and that should be the end of it.

This reaction leaves me even more frightened and angry. Since he wants nothing more than to feel good about what he did with his female friends and get away from the damage he has caused at home, why not start up again with his company full of women? How would I ever know? And wouldn't he be justified now because his wife is such a crazy psychob*tch? This is what I have to live with hanging over my head each and every day.

So, naturally, he is the one who is the victim here and not me. He will only say he is sorry he hurt me and he should have been paying more attention -- but I am convinced he is not sorry for what he did and never will be, and this causes me more agony than I can express in words.

But I am supposed to remember that all of this is my fault and he is the victim here. He "doesn't understand the depth of my anger," so therefore I have no right to feel that way.

I guess I would have been allowed to be a little angry and annoyed, like the women who get cheated on in the sitcoms, but by no means devastated and heartbroken. That's too damned inconvenient for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong>
If he is willing, I would suggest working through "Torn Asunder", by Carder, together. You might find "The State of Affairs" by Mulliken helpful, too, for you. Both books stress the place of and importance of remorse in recovery much more than Harley's SAA. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am going to check out these books as well, John. I had heard of Torn Asunder, but was not aware of the fact that it deals more with the remorse aspect of A's. I guess some of us must feel the need for that remorse more than others. Thanks for passing on that information.

MT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Zoey:
<strong>
I also don't know why your login name is PB. You are not a PB. You should change it to something that really reflects you. I bet you are a really sweet person and has been through hell and back in 10 years.

Change your name if you can to something more positive. Take care of yourself. I feel so sad for you. No wonder you are wanting him to say something concrete

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PB- I agree with Zoey. Please, think about changing your login name. It's so negative. It's so sad to see you refer to yourself as the Psycho B**** as you did in your last post. You really shouldn't think of yourself in that way. (Easy for me to say, I know.) I think you've been conditioned to think of yourself in that way, but it's not right. Can you try to come up with something more positive, or inspiring? I know, you may not feel like that now. But just posting under a negative login has got to drag you down too! Please think about it.

MT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by psycho_b:
[QBI know there will never be anything I can do to change this. I feel he would rather leave me than have to say he's sorry when he's not. Yes, I wanted the truth, and I got it, but I was hoping somebody can tell me how I can live with a truth like that.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PB - This is not an acceptable way to live. Has he ever told you what he felt was wrong that would make him want to spend all this time with other women? I'm wondering what makes him feel that this has been justified. Has he told you why he remains with you? If there are things you can work on changing, that's one thing. I'm left wondering if there is anything you might be able to change that would make any difference to him. I am so sorry you are in this situation. Our situations are similar in what we'd like to hear, but I did know what had made my H unhappy, and was able to try to change those things. I am afraid that in some cases, however, when they REALLY think what they've done was justified, they may never want to apologize the way we seem to need it.

I'm wondering if you actually have any hope of making things better. There should be a reason or reasons in his mind that he found these other people better to be with than you. Do you have the gut feeling that he actually wants things to be better between you? Or do you have the feeling that he really doesn't care? I think that that's important. It's hard to fix something when both parties really don't want to fix it. I mean, initially you can plan A, but at some point the other party has to come around.

I feel so badly for you.

MT