SS:

How 2-way is it? Hm... Well, I've spoken plenty of my own view of things. My W IS still here, still talking about the fu2re, still "trying" 2 end contact, still trying 2 "trust" me, and on.

I haven't heard the words "ILY" from her in a 2ple of months now, but plenty of "indications" when we're 2gether.

I'm just working so as not 2 assume things that aren't happening. That's pretty difficult 2 control sometimes. I assume all kinds of things about what RM is doing, because I get very little info from my W. Not that I want 2 know about his life, but I do want 2 be warned if he's "on the prowl" or if he's being tossed by his W. Last time we talked about RM, my W said he still wants a R with her, but he's trying 2 reconcile with his W! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Only other thing I "know" is that Mrs. Meat is using her maiden name on classmates.com, as of sometime around June.

But I don't need 2 hear from them or about them, just so long as they stay out of my life.

Hey, 2long, how are ya? I haven't had much time to be on the computer as of late, and I just saw your post of 11-19. I too feel like Still Seeking did - you sound like you're doing so well that we think you don't need the attention. I'm sorry... I know how hard this all must be for you. For those of us with long-term friend A's, it is especially hard, I think. Your wife is still "trying" to break it off? How long has she said she has been trying now? And how imperative is it for you wife to have contact with RM about this "report?"

I give you a LOT of credit, 2long. I know we only (!) went about 1/2 a year after d-day until what was supposed to be (??!) NC. That half year was miserably long for me. BUT, because they had been friends for so long, the end was incredibly hard for my H. Actual NC was a LONG (2LONG) time coming. The hardest part for me is the fact that my H would still like to be in contact with her, as they have been friends forever. It hurts him so much to have had to hurt her. I think this may be what your wife is going through. However, in our situation, the OW seems to not desire contact any longer, since my H has decided to stay with me. So we have NC, I think, not because my H wishes it to be that way, but because OW does. Oh, well, I guess you take NC any way you can get it. And I am hoping big time that at some point, my H won't be missing that contact too. I haven't asked him lately, kind of a big-time LB, you understand.

I guess I have to look upon it as a good thing that at least OW no longer wants contact. (I'm definitely appreciative!) I wish RM would begin to take the hint that he's not gonna get your W and decide to move on, hopefully with Mrs. Meat. I mean, really... at some point, doesn't he have to realize that she's not letting go of you? Why does he only want part of her, anyway?? I just don't get it.

Anyway, 2long, sorry I haven't responded more - you just always sound so together, you had me fooled!

MT

2long:

How long has it been since the two of you talked about things? Was it the drive where you listened to the Greg Bauer (sp) stuff?

My W and I often have very different ideas abut how things ought to be in marriage. I have noticed that if we are talking about them it means we are trying to understand the other, and that is much better than being hurt, angry or fighting. Do you feel like your conversations are helping now days? Or does it still hurt to much?
BTW - once upon a time, if we were talking it meant I was trying to convice her that I was right and she was wrong, and there is a big difference now.

Would it be easier on you emotionally if I left off asking questions for a while?

SS

Sent you some really raunchy jokes email ...

Mental junk food for you today.

Pepper

MT, SS:

MT: I think you understand my predicament rather well. Yes, it was a long-term friendship and so I can at least be simpathetic with my W's difficulty in breaking it off. I find myself getting more antsy with time, though. I don't believe in ultimatims, though, so I'm wrestling with my increasing urge 2 say something like "It's been about a year, now. I want NC, and I want it NOW!" I may do that, but I'll be gentler about it.

SS: By all means keep asking those questions! (I got distracted, so I'll have 2 post this and reread them, though!).

MT:

Sick as it sounds, I don't think RM ever wanted 2 live with my W. Though they may have talked about that several years ago, it's not a viable option, and they realize it now. My W figures she'll "just have 2 be alone", and RM says things like "I am happy that you can live like this" (pisses me off 2 hear that). My W even told me that last year he apparently asked her 2 DV me and move 2 his town, so that he could visit her more often, but not leave his family! I also think he's a pervert, from what I read on D-day, but at least I believe that they were only 2gether once last year, and "a few times" during the A before that several years ago.

SS:

You're right. That drive home was the last time we talked about our R, or RM.

I didn't know at the time that she'd emailed him 2ice while we were out of town, but found out a week or 2 later. It explained that odd question about where I pictured myself in 5 years. Again, I'm assuming, though. I don't know that's what they talked about.

I think my latest funk is directly related 2 the date - 1 yr since she thought she ended the A, and then TG, which she spent alone in our home out of state (RM was NOT there, though. He's apparently never been there, and it's such a small town that every one would know about it and so would I - I know my W is not THAT s2pid). But she wasn't with us on TG last year, and said that she enjoyed the time alone when she brought it up this year, so I felt down as a result of that.

I don't really believe I'm sitting on my hands, though. We have a LOT 2 deal with regarding the house, and she IS trying 2 get this report finished for good. She said she wanted 2 keep working on similar things with him in the fu2ure (the "comparable data thing"), but I think she understands that I will have a very hard time with that. I really can't see sticking with her long-term if he's in her life in any way, but if you ask me 2 put a number on "long-term", I am sure I couldn't do it.

A lot of what I do and when will depend on how WELL I do it when I do it (like bringing it up and making ultimatims, or anything like them). Make sense? Whether I "save" or "end" this M, I want 2 do it RIGHT. I need 2 be sure I CAN do it right, before I do it. Hope that makes sense.

In any case, by all means keep asking me 2uestions. They make me think. I need 2 think! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pepper!

I always have liked a good, raunchy joke! I'll check them out.

Did you use my new email below? I am going 2 let the hotmail account lapse.

Thanques!

Yes, I did.

They are bad .... just suited my mood today!

Sunday night I was going into Rite Aide about 9PM for toothpaste. There was a comotion in the parking lot. Then a swarm of police cars ... at least 30 cars. Police rushed me (and others outside) pushing us into the store. There is a Pollo Loco at the end of the parking lot. A 2-man armed robery was going on. There were hostages in the restaurant. Gunshots. The police yelled for all of us to get against the back of the store. The doors were closed and a metal roll-down door was locked. So, there I was with about 30 others... for about 2 hours. Finally, the police had enough confidence that we'd be safe, and they started letting us out one-by-one. Thet searched us and our cars (twice) before allowing us to leave.

I did not get toothpaste! (Hence, the need to send raunchy dumb [censored] jokes)

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>MT, SS:

MT: I think you understand my predicament rather well. Yes, it was a long-term friendship and so I can at least be simpathetic with my W's difficulty in breaking it off... I don't believe in ultimatims, though, so I'm wrestling with my increasing urge 2 say something like "It's been about a year, now. I want NC, and I want it NOW!" I may do that, but I'll be gentler about it.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey 2long - I know all about trying to be sympathetic while they (WS) try to figure out how to let the OP down gently. I think the problem is that there is no way to let the OP down gently. When they have cared about the OP for so long, it just seems impossible to them to have to have that person out of their life completely. However, there is no way that your wife will be able to continue contact with RM after a point (which YOU will decide!) if your M is to survive. Does your wife understand this at all, or does she still actually think you will be waiting around forever for her to break it off with him. Does she actually think that it'll be okay to continue to have contact with him regarding work issues? That will never be okay, and she is going to have to understand that, or at least understand that you will not tolerate this indefinitely.

I don't blame you for getting antsy... a year is a heck of a long time to be in limbo. And the fact is, as long as we tolerate the fence-sitting, they will sit on the fence. I did finally gently ask my H (very nicely!) for NC before he actually attempted to have NC. He at the time had already realized that this contact could just not continue, but couldn't bring himself to break things off. He actually did tell OW that there was to be NC for me initially. And I do realize that he then later re-established contact, but I believe that the first time he brought up NC with OW, she began to realize that it was time for her to move on with her life. SHE was respecting the NC rule, he later broke that NC rule. And 2long, just so you understand, it was much later that he tried to resume contact. Withdrawl was unbelievably hard for him - the fantasy was just so strong.

I'm not really sure what he was expecting to achieve by trying to continue contact. I really do wonder about that. He was not leaving me, or even saying anything negative about me anymore. He was staying. But I think he just felt so awful for hurting her. I just don't think he wanted it to end with any bad feelings, and I guess they are inevitable. In my mind, I think I have an understanding of why he kept trying to keep contact open, but whatever the reason was that he tried to remain in contact, it was terribly wrong. At that point, I was trying to regain trust, and he was still lying, or lying again. I believed there was NC, and there still was. He could not be in recovery with me while still in contact with her. It's too much of an insult to the BS. And you can't have moved on if you're still in contact...

I am bothered by RM's comments about your wife moving to his town so that he could have both his wife and yours (although at that point she'd be your ex.) How unbelievably selfish. And she'll be okay by herself?? What is up with that? I find it so hard to believe that even a WS would find that kind of talk to be enticing. What a fog they must be in to not see through that kind of crap. Did your wife think these were rational, fair thoughts coming from him? Or can she see through this? Was/is she considering this kind of thing?

Sorry, 2long, now I have too many questions!

MT

Pep:

Yikes! Well, at least you were after 2thpaste, and not birds for dinner!

Good 2 hear you're safe!

MT: More excellent 2uestions!

"Hey 2long - I know all about trying to be sympathetic while they (WS) try to figure out how to let the OP down gently. I think the problem is that there is no way to let the OP down gently. When they have cared about the OP for so long, it just seems impossible to them to have to have that person out of their life completely."

And this is where the problem lies, I'm sure.

"However, there is no way that your wife will be able to continue contact with RM after a point (which YOU will decide!) if your M is to survive. Does your wife understand this at all, or does she still actually think you will be waiting around forever for her to break it off with him."

I think she understands this, but I will admit that I have had 2 be careful not 2 LB in order 2 get clarification. It's one of those sitches where I'd bet she feels she's being very clear about what she means by "trying", and so if I ask her 2 elaborate 2 much, it could be a LB. Make sense?

"Does she actually think that it'll be okay to continue to have contact with him regarding work issues? That will never be okay, and she is going to have to understand that, or at least understand that you will not tolerate this indefinitely."

I think she "hopes" that it will be okay at some point when I've "gotten over" the A. But I can feel the need rising 2 have a convo about this at some point in time. I won't tolerate continued contact indefinitely, for any reason, if I'm 2 stay M'd 2 her. It's quite simple: I could never trust them in contact long term, and it would be easier for me 2 get over HER than bite my tongue about continued contact.

"I don't blame you for getting antsy... a year is a heck of a long time to be in limbo. And the fact is, as long as we tolerate the fence-sitting, they will sit on the fence. I did finally gently ask my H (very nicely!) for NC before he actually attempted to have NC. He at the time had already realized that this contact could just not continue, but couldn't bring himself to break things off. He actually did tell OW that there was to be NC for me initially. And I do realize that he then later re-established contact, but I believe that the first time he brought up NC with OW, she began to realize that it was time for her to move on with her life. SHE was respecting the NC rule, he later broke that NC rule. And 2long, just so you understand, it was much later that he tried to resume contact. Withdrawl was unbelievably hard for him - the fantasy was just so strong."

I think this is very similar 2 the case with my W and RM. It has ac2ally been RM on at least a couple of occasions that I know of, who said 2 my W (and she relayed 2 me) that "if you want this (the M) 2 work, we're going 2 have 2 stop talking 2 each other", and yet it's also RM who seems 2 want 2 resume their A (my W DOESN'T, but doesn't seem 2 want 2 let go of the "friendship" and "colleague"). I think she realizes that continued contact is very much a factor in MY behavior 2ward her. I'm banking on that, as we enter the holiday season (and our 27th anniversary 2 days after Xmas). I'm also continuing 2 work HARD on my behavior, so that I attract rather than repel her with it.

"In my mind, I think I have an understanding of why he kept trying to keep contact open, but whatever the reason was that he tried to remain in contact, it was terribly wrong."

I agree, and believe that "hurting the OP" is a big factor, not just an excuse, for most WSs.

"At that point, I was trying to regain trust, and he was still lying, or lying again. I believed there was NC, and there still was. He could not be in recovery with me while still in contact with her. It's too much of an insult to the BS. And you can't have moved on if you're still in contact..."

Agreed. My W has said many times (and I've repeated several times lately, I think), that she doesn't want 2 go back 2 the way it was before D-day. But that's exactly where we are, with the only difference being that I know about the A this time around. We can't keep this up - her lying about contact and me "lying" about what I know about it. One of us, preferably BOTH of us, has 2 give!

"I am bothered by RM's comments about your wife moving to his town so that he could have both his wife and yours (although at that point she'd be your ex.) How unbelievably selfish."

Which I pointed out 2 her when she told me back in March! Incredible. She's a very headstrong, independent woman, and if it weren't for RM being someone she thinks she cares about, she'd have decked him for a remark like that. I sure know I can't get away with anything that might sound even remotely like I'm dominating.

"And she'll be okay by herself?? What is up with that? I find it so hard to believe that even a WS would find that kind of talk to be enticing. What a fog they must be in to not see through that kind of crap. Did your wife think these were rational, fair thoughts coming from him? Or can she see through this? Was/is she considering this kind of thing?"

I think it was clearly fog, and she even admitted that it made no sense and was disrespectful of her. But at least she wasn't/isn't considering this "offer." Not that I know of at the moment, at least. If she were 2, I'd be "happy" 2 let her try it out, though, at some point. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be there when she got tired of it, though.

That "where do you see yourself in 5 years?" comment really leaves you with an opening.

I am much better at writing than I used to be before I started posting here. (duh, I wonder why) I thought I would write my W a letter last week. You know, I spend time writing here, why not write to her, and give her some of the benefit of my experience. So I did, and she liked it quite a lot.

Anyway, about you opening. It may be a good time to write your W and say something like:

Dear W, I have been thinking about your question about where I plan to be in 5 years........
List all the stuff that's important.
I plan to be in love with my wife, a wife who is in love with me, a W who respects me by.....
I plan on doing x, and y, and z, with you. I see myself continuing to improve my skills in knowing how to make you happy, and I get really good at it, so you are happy. More than you have ever been.
When I see myself 5 years from now, I am not sharing my W with anyone at all, I have her to my self in fantastic wedded bliss.

Anyway, you get the idea.

What an opener - after all, she asked, and it is hard to think of all if this stuff in the car while you are driving. It would be natural for you to continue to think about it and to want to respond.

I suspect with the anniversary coming up, you are wanting to talk, it would be a good way for you to state your feelings. Perhaps you could use it to discuss your boundaries.

I noticed last night that Mars had disappeared from the night sky. Did you guys have anything do to with that?
Oh wait, my wife says it was just cloudy, perhaps the two things are related. ?? I better think on that one.

SS

SS:

You can bet that, once I got over the initial surprise and confusion by being asked that question the way and when she asked it (and not knowing that she had emailed RM just before asking), I came up with whole HERDS of potential replies. Unfor2nately, many of them were sarcastic, and so I should never make them. But some were pretty much along the lines of what you're suggesting. I am cogitating on presenting her with one of them, or a variant, in the next month or so.

She also asked me, a week or so ago, "what do you want for Christmas?" and I stifled the sarcastic reply that came to the tip of my tongue and talked about tools and s2pid stuff I can live without, instead. Our 27th anniversary comes up just after Christmas, 2, and I want 2 have a well thought-out response if she asks me what I want for that.

But my response 2 both the "5-yr" 2uestion and the anniversary 2uestion right now stands at: "I expect 2 be happily M'd" (let her wonder 2 whom), and "a fully-committed marriage, and a promise 2 work 2gether on making it better". I will MEAN "without RM", but won't have 2 say those words, unless she brings him up.

No, we didn't do anything with Mars. If I had my druthers, we'd haul it in2 Earth orbit, so I could see it better! Right now, it's a diminutive 4 arc second red speck in the early morning sky. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>MT: "However, there is no way that your wife will be able to continue contact with RM after a point (which YOU will decide!) if your M is to survive. Does your wife understand this at all, or does she still actually think you will be waiting around forever for her to break it off with him."

I think she understands this, but I will admit that I have had 2 be careful not 2 LB in order 2 get clarification. It's one of those sitches where I'd bet she feels she's being very clear about what she means by "trying", and so if I ask her 2 elaborate 2 much, it could be a LB. Make sense?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, 2long, it makes a lot of sense. But I'm not sure that you should worry about LBing when you're talking about NC with RM. I mean, of course you watch the way you say it, but telling her that she needs to go to NC is probably inevitable - she may just take too long to decide to do it herself. You have to get to the point where you're willing to take the chance of "slightly" LBing by standing your ground and telling her that this cannot continue this way. I am a bit concerned that she thinks it can. Especially since she still wants that contact re: work. Are you pretty sure she's not just "trying" to change it to a more platonic relationship?
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"Does she actually think that it'll be okay to continue to have contact with him regarding work issues? That will never be okay, and she is going to have to understand that, or at least understand that you will not tolerate this indefinitely."

I think she "hopes" that it will be okay at some point when I've "gotten over" the A. But I can feel the need rising 2 have a convo about this at some point in time. I won't tolerate continued contact indefinitely, for any reason, if I'm 2 stay M'd 2 her. It's quite simple: I could never trust them in contact long term, and it would be easier for me 2 get over HER than bite my tongue about continued contact.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this completely. You will never have "gotten over" the A. She needs to know that at some point. Probably the sooner the better, so that will give her some time to get used to the idea that continued contact will not be possible within the M. Once they cross that line, going back to just friendship is impossible. Simple as that. And it's a complete insult to the BS.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"And you can't have moved on if you're still in contact..."

Agreed. My W has said many times (and I've repeated several times lately, I think), that she doesn't want 2 go back 2 the way it was before D-day. But that's exactly where we are, with the only difference being that I know about the A this time around. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right, so the situation is still the same, only now you're hurt.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"And she'll be okay by herself?? What is up with that?"

I think it was clearly fog, and she even admitted that it made no sense and was disrespectful of her. But at least she wasn't/isn't considering this "offer." Not that I know of at the moment, at least. If she were 2, I'd be "happy" 2 let her try it out, though, at some point. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be there when she got tired of it, though.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, I agree with you there. I think that would be about time to be movin' on yourself.

2long, have you ever talked to Steve or Jenn? I wonder what they would advise you regarding how to make your points with your wife without LBing in a big way. Or if you were both on the phone, they could make those points with her themselves? I just feel for you, just waiting like this. I know how hard it is, and how much it hurts. There is going to be pain inflicted somewhere, somewhere along the line. Might as well just get it over with, I would think. (Of course, that's me, the BS.) I'm not sure how prolonging the contact will make it any easier to end it later on... Someone just has to get your W to understand that. She's not even destined to have all of him, for crying out loud. That's just crazy. It just doesn't sound to me like your W is going anywhere anytime soon, she just can't break it off with RM. She needs to face the fact that she has to.

JMHO -

MT