OK - I've been reading the "missaplication of Plan A" thread and could really use some advice.

When I spoke to Steve Harley he told me I should think about how and when I might want to Plan B if my wife's A continues. But I'm struggling and here's why (my story is here)

One of the things which was dragging our M down was our incompatible life. Whilst we love doing all the same activities (there is only 1 thing my wife does that I don't want to - and I'm sure other BSs can guess!) our work prevented it. I have been busy working a start-up company for the last 3 years - to try and provide us with the lifestyle we wanted - whilst my wife is self employed, working through various other companies on a project basis. That meant when sailing / travel opportunities arose she was able to take them (if she wasn't working) and I wasn't. It got to the stage where I was resentful that she could go and so instead of supporting her goals I begrudged her them. Of course this made her go out and do it more often - and hey ho down the slippery slope we went.

We both understand now that this was a big problem. My wife has just recently (with my help as I benefit financially) run a large programme direct for a client. It was very profitable and we would not need to get that many more for me to be able to give up my job. Obviously in terms of our R this would be ideal - plus I'm really tired of my job - 3 years of slogging away at the current business has taken the shine off it!

My W and I still do a lot together even though we live apart (and OM lives in another country). I don't want to carry on in a 3 way M and my W knows this. Neither does she want D although in her mind we are 'apart' now.

My dilema is if I go to Plan B without giving a shot at working together my W is likely to see this as an example that I don't want M to continue and that all my talk about working together (in all ways) was just that - talk.

So should I a) tell her that I want to but can't unless her A is ended as it would be too painful to invest in something that could only cause more pain if her A was ongoing? Trouble with this (as I see it) is that it's an ultimatum on the A plus I would like to get out of my job for me - and her business has potential.

There has always been a sort of "known" timetable between us: we had planned to emigrate to Oz and work over there (either duplicating the biz I am in at the moment or hers). I told her when we seperated that I want to be in Oz by the end of 2003 - either as a fresh start for us or for me on my own.

I see now (hence my worry with the above option) that her knowing my timetable means that her deicison making on whether or not she wants to finish the A and/or try again can (in her mind) be delayed until late next year.

So what to do with planning my plan B?

There are other complications in that we are still renovating and extending our house (which she lives in). I don't want to throw in the towel on this - and neither does she. But I can hardly Plan B before it's finished as I have to have contact with builders etc.

So - advice greatly received!

Thanks all in advance

any thought / comments greatfully received.

TIA

Normally you would plan A for a much longer time, did Steve suggest plan B, or are you just getting where you can't stand continued contact? The reason you should plan A ( 6 months or longer is suggested) is so when you do get to B, she has very good memories of you that cause her to wonder what the heck she is thinking being apart from you.

So, again, it seems early for plan B, tell us what is happening.
Actually, I re-read your post and see you are just doing research and getting ready for what may come in the future. I don't know what the time frame is for finishing your home but perhaps you could do plan A at least until that is over with. Remember that a good plan A will sometimes be enough. Are you still having some good times with her? Does knowing that she contacts OM hurt and is it affecting your ability to plan A?

SS

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bowd:
<strong> ...When I spoke to Steve Harley he told me I should think about how and when I might want to Plan B if my wife's A continues. ....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Usually thinking about plan B, as a discouragement, will help you stay in plan A and more commit to it. Specially when you can't control your LB'ed. The rule of thumb to go plan B are if your WW rejects your plan A or if you can't stop LB'ed (this will happen as LB$ goes to zero), otherwise you should try to stay in plan A. -rh-

Thanks for the advice... it has lifted my spirits already.

SS - I have been in plan A (well my sort of Plan A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) since April. My WW and I still have loads of good times together even though we live apart. So much so tht the OM gets upset by the amount of time we spend together. But likewise it does hurt that she is still emotionally involved (and physically when they get the chance to be together which is not often as he lives abroad).

Redhat - that's a really interesting POV. Like thinking about Plan B and how tough it will be if it comes to it might help me Plan A harder. I like that - and it does fit in with what I have been struggling with. One example is <admission> I'm a smoker (as is my wife). I want to give up - have done it before for 8 or so months - for me and for future health / having children etc (which has been a difficulty for us). But with all the other crap going on in my life it is easier sometimes to think "oh well, it helps me cope". But I really need to be focusing on me in Plan A and so really working on giving up smoking is likely to make me feel better. And I know my wife would like it.

I like it - thank you.

I don't on the whole have a problem with LBng though sometimes I get down I can usually come back - if anything my concern is that I am enabling the A - and that gets me down. But I think I want to carry on working on the best Plan A for me - though I will continue to consider the circumstances for going to plan B. If nothing much changes I guess it will be towards the end of 03 when I go to Oz.

Thank you again - and please more thoughts / comments / advice from anyone who can help.

I don't know if you e-mail her on a regular basis, but communication is often a greater need for a women than a man. If you don't, you might try it, if you do, perhpas a note telling your feelings every few months would help.

As a preface to a sample note:
Remember that one of the reasons (usually) they like OM is that OM doesn't LB. We tend to be whiney, sad, and angry because OUR W has taken up with OM. OM tends to be happy, laugh, and fun to be with. So you have to be better at this part than OM. (will get easier if OM is getting upset that she spends time with you. In fact he could start to make demands and that would be the beginning of the end for him. )

So anyway, you want to be happy as a general rule but you still need to communicate your feelings sometimes so she will realize that she is hurting you.
Sample note:

Dear W,
I love you and I want you to know that. I am happy when I am with you and I am glad we married and are man and wife. Sometimes I get to thinking about where we are and where we will be in 5 years and it hurts to wonder. I want to be with you but I hurt when I think about us being apart like we are now. I know have contributed to this, and I have been trying to make amends but it takes two. It would make me very happy if we could make it work.

Love H.

Remember, we just make suggestions, you have to decide if it is a valid one, and write a note that is "you".

Perhaps you could figure out how to do a romantic trip with her also. Sounds like that is a big thing for her. You know - Hon, let go away some where and see if we still have "got it." She may say no, but you still get some points for even suggesting it.

SS

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bowd:
<strong>.... if anything my concern is that I am enabling the A - and that gets me down. ....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you are in plan A and still working on plan A, you are a complete doormat <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> , I know it is not fair but it is not enabling. You become an enabler after you work on plan A and take out all past issues that your W has on you ... by then if there is no impact (your plan A is rejected by WW) you should stop plan A and move to plan B. Otherwise you are grooming a cake monster and you are enabeling A.

-rh-

BTW Bowd,

Redhat has had lots of personal experiance with this. His W never came back but he did the work and is much improved. He knows the way, having already made some of the mistakes and fixed them.

He gives great advice and is considered one of old timers here.

SS

Thank you again.

SS - we see each other probably 3/4 times a week. We currently live 5 minutes drive apart and in fact I have just had dinner there. We went out to a concert together last night - David Gray - a suprise from me for her; spent Saturday night together with friends (I stayed over) and had lunch together on Sunday. We have started tango lessons together and are going away to Africa for a 3 week holiday on Christmas Eve.

Side note: OM is going to be over for a week, a bit before we go away, on his way to his parents for Xmas(he lives in US but his parents live in Europe). Whilst I would rather he wasn't I am glad (in a bizarre way) that he is seeing her before our holiday and not afterwards as I know he will be really annoyed over the Xmas period and hopefully LB - terrible thought I know. I also know that my W is having real problems deciding what to do with him as a very good friend (a couple actually) of ours are staying with my W at the moment whilst in the UK studying and will still be there when he is over. Not many people know about her A so she doesn't know whether she should tell them - "oh this is my new boyfriend" or what.

I guess all of what this closeness points to is my concern over what Redhat is saying about becoming an enabler and grooming a cake monster. But whilst I have improved in removing some of my behaviour that led to our split and her A I still have some way to go. So I guess I keep on Plan Aing and hoping she will realise I am too good to lose forever.

I have found so much hope and help on here - from others posts as well as responses to mine. i just hope I can give a little back.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: bowd ]</small>

Hi B,

This would be a good time for her to break up with him. Things would be so much easier. Is there any way to tell her that without her taking it wrong? If she is leaning towards you, it's a great chance for her.

SS

bowd:

Wow, I just read your posts, and have 2 say it sounds like you've got a lot 2 be optimistic about. Yeah! Do the plan A thang. Do it indefinitely if you want 2! This is YOUR life.

Your W is an intelligent woman. It won't take her long 2 realize that having the cake and the frosting just won't do. You may get 2 the point where you might not be able 2 stand the hurt anymore, but my bet is that INSTEAD you will find your R with your W improving 2 the point that another OP (or this one) will seem ridiculous 2 both of you.

just popped in - can't stop as I have a train to catch. Will write later - I just wanted to say thanks.

SS </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This would be a good time for her to break up with him. Things would be so much easier. Is there any way to tell her that without her taking it wrong? If she is leaning towards you, it's a great chance for her.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have told her (the other night when we sat up til 9am talking) that she knows that she is hurting everyone - herself included - and that sooner or later she will have to take a decision. That if she truly wants to make a go of things with OM he is not going to be happy with her spending so much time with me. And that if she decides to try again with me she will have to end contact with him as otherwise it will be extremely difficult for her to commit to working on our R.

I tried very hard (and think I succeded) in not making it an ultimatum but leaving her in no uncertain doubt that she can not have her cake and eat it happily. Interestingly her response was "so if I want to make a go of things with OM you're saying I shouldn't see you?" I replied that she was absolutely right and that in fact that went for any new relationship. I know that may sound odd - but I know that she doesn't want to lose me completely.

It is a difficult one for me because my wife is still friends with all but one of her ex-bfs (she doesn't often see / contact them but is very friendly with them). I do not have a problem with this - they are all friends of mine now as well. One was an usher at our wedding - my choice - and another - though he has been a friend for many more years than he was ever a BF actually gave her away! Whilst this may sound strange he is in many ways more a father figure and has been for years. He also thinks she is being very stupid at the moment and told her she should watch out I don't get caught by someone else whilst she is spending time "thinking".

Becasue of this I had been struggling with the NC concept until I realised that each time a R of my wife's had ended she had (of her own volition) spent time having NC with her exs. I pointed this out to her when we were having the above conversation and I think it made sense to her.

2Long - I was going to quote from your post but would end up just having to quote the whole thing! You have managed in one short post to encapsulate my thoughts entirely. It's not that I'm going to put up with the situation for ever cos I won't but I am not ready to stop trying now It means a lot that someone else thinks that this a sensible move - even if we end up staying apart I think we will both have learnt a lot and might be able to avoid making the same mistakes again.
Thank you so much.

bowd:

Your paragraph about the ex-BFs that she's still close friends with brings up the whole issue of "opposite sex friendships" and the dangers thereof. But you know what? If your love for one another is "genuine", and the "love" for the friends is "real" (meaning, open and completly honest) and all parties involved KNOW the difference between real love and "imitation love" (in the case of As, requiring that one LIE and CHEAT 2 feel the immitation love), then there really is no danger in these relationships.

It's just most often frowned on because most people are susceptible 2 having As. Your W may not be ever again after this experience, if it goes well.

Good luck 2 you!