I am new to MB and would appreciate some advice. I have been reading these discussion boards for some months but it is intimidating to post for the first time-I hope someone will reply!
I found out about my H's affair in May after 6 months at least(he admits to 6 months) of gradually becoming aware that things were not great between us.The clues were all there,increasing trips away,late night walks around the village to " clear his head", he even told me that work had questioned his mobile phone bills as he had the highest of anyone at work-this from a man who used to never turn it on and didn't know how to access his messages! I discussed it with a friend who had suspected her H was having an affair after she heard some suspect messages on his voicemail.She asked me if I had checked his-so I did one weekend after having to hunt his phone down-and voila! Of course he still denied it until I played him the message.
Anyway he confessed,told me a bit about her and the affair and said he didn't want to leave...because I would take his kids away(i am living in UK but am Australian). He says he told her the next day that it had to stop.But then I heard another message 2 weeks later and believe me it was not the voice of a jilted lover! Plus his mobile phone was engaged every am and pm on the way to and from work-and so was hers!
Eventually he saw her at a Conference,came home and said he had ended it.So I started to be the best wife,friend,companion,mother,I could,whilst trying to make my mark in a new job.! We went out a lot,he sent me all his emails about where he would be when he was going to be away,we planned weekends away, we even went ahead with our 2 week summer holiday with another family and had a great time. Then after we returned work got heavy again and he had a meeting in London or away every week for about 6-7 weeks. Initially I was suspicious and needed a lot of reassurance and he would phone me when he could,late at night,early am....in retrospect he changed again and stopped doing those things...late October he went to a fancy hotel where I knew she would be tho he said he didn't know.He didn't call and even said he wouldn't because he would be up late with his colleaguse as it was a Black Tie affair.Didn't call until 3pm the next day.The old instincts kicked in again and I realised after we went out for our regular Wed evening "date" the following day that he was cagey again.I had been talking about how I was beginning to feel that my life was pretty good again despite the discovery of the afair-and he looked away and said "how is your fish?" He is a terrible liar at least.
So I checked his voicemail again the next day and there was another message from OW who was cooing and crooning to him the usual nauseating love messages including confirmation that they had spent that night in the Hotel together-and he had previously looked me in the eye and said he had seen her but only talked to her in a group.He said he felt sorry for her as she thought her longterm BF might kick her out.And he felt partially responsible.!
So again I told him it had to end and he said it had. But then just when I was starting to believe that this was a one off and there had been no contact between June and Oct-I decided to phone her BF. Turns out he had known about it for 2 months and could match up all the dates H had been away with when she had admitted to meeting up with him.Only she had told BF that they had just met for drinks or dinner and my H had driven home or stayed with his brother. I knew different-even the hotels thanks to H's kind keeping me in the loop!
She has been with BF for 10 yrs and he left his wife when she was pregnant with 2nd child for this woman.Interestingly she has not told my H that-he thinks they have been together 8 yrs. I can see no reason why the BF should lie to me about that-puts him in a bad light too after all.
Neither H nor OW like me and BF talking .And it wa winding us both up in that we found out too much hurtful info so we no longer communicate.
But I have to deal with the fact that after my initial discovery of the affair and working on PLan A and feeling that we were starting to get it together-planning Xmas etc-I now have found out that it was either ongoing all along,or that they tried to end it and couldn't keep away from each other.They don't work together but are likely to meet at meetings and conferences.She lives close enough to London to be able to meet him anywhere work permitting and she travels around the country a lot for work.She has no kids.And the BF assures me that they are finished so OW will be single soon!They can email and speak at work without me being able to check it out.He is away again this week.
He has told me that it is finished,that he doesn't want to talk about it and will never want to, and that I have to accept that.He won't go to counselling.
I told him 2 weeks ago that he had to leave so I could decide what I wanted.But after 3 days I missed him and invited him to dinner and he stayed in the spare room for 4 nights until I told him he could come back to our bed.But how can I move on when this is such a big thing for me ? How can I ever get over this blow and I feel I can't even trust my own instincts now? And how could he betray me again,knowing how hurt I was after the first d day,how could he speak to her,see her,whilst be with me? He even drove 5 hours to a meeting when he had the flu so he could see her atfrewards, and drove out of his way to find her car in a motorway car park to leave a note on it saying "I love you".That was a week after we returned from holiday!He says he has had lots of opportunity to be unfaithful but has never been interested until he met OW-says he has only ever met 2 women who he knew immediately were right for him-me and OW.He says he wasn't unhappy at home-tho in retrospect he may not have been but I was! And another time he said I pushed him away ,was cold,withdrawn,disinterested ,refused sex etc.I have to take some responsibility for those things but have tried so hard to make up for it since D day 1.! And now I have foundout that he had dinner with her 2 nights before our holiday,and then spent the night with her in London when my parents were staying from Australia-no wonder he couldn't look my Mother in the eye!
Last weekend I found out my Mother's breast cancer has returned -she is not at death's door but she is unwell and a long way away and he suggested I go and see her and offered not to go to his conference so I can go.He was really nice and helped out loads at the weekend. I am suspicious that he wants me out of the way or is trying to do this so he doesn't feel so guilty. And then he booked his conference anyway and I can still go to Australia but he is going to get his Mother to come and stay-so he can still go to London no doubt!We don't need her,our kids have a great Nanny who has agreed to stay!
I guess I just feel that we can't move on unless we are honest with each other and I can't accept a policy of closing a chunk of his life off from me for good. I don't want to be without him but feel that the only way he can decide what he really wants is to go to Plan B. I know that he doesn't want to leave his comfortable home and his kids. OW lives 240 miles away so shacking up with her is not an option. Financially we would both lose out if we split. And I might want to return to Oz if we did,one day! But I don't want to use that as a threat-I want him to stay because he loves me but even though he has said that to me it doesn't ring true-this man has told me he loves me before and I rememeber what it was like.! So I told him at the weekend that he should stop saying it as I didn't believe it. But I really wish he would ignore it and say it lots!
One more thing I don't understand.Last Dec he gave me an eternity ring for our 10th wedding aniv. When I found out about the affair I reasised it had already started then. So I threw the ring back at him and told him to give it back to me when he meant it.(guess it means to me "I love you and want to spend my life with you"). I fielded a few awkward questions from my Mother In law about it and then he gave it to me casually just as I was getting dressed for the evening on his 40th birthday party. So now he has given it to me twice under a cloud of lies and deception.I have asked him 4 times why he gave it to me-can only assume so as to avoid his mother asking more questions-but he refuses to answer. I haven't given it back-its valuable and Imay need to sell it one day. It has mixed sentimental value to me as he had it made long before he started the affair by a friend,based on a ring we had seen and loved in Paris 3 years ago.
So that is my story and I am stranded here wondering how on earth to move on? Can anyone help-sorry to be so longwinded.

Dear Deluded

Sorry to see you here on MB, but you've come to a good place for support and advice from many different people.

I am actually a FWS, but you will find that it can be really helpful to have opinions from both sides. You have clearly read quite a bit on the website here, but read as much as you can. Has your H read anything yet? You can order the Harley books Surviving an Affair and His Needs Her Needs from Amazon.

I think your H is being completely disrespectful. After my own D-day, contact with OM pretty much stopped straight away, and it is always beyond me how WS can be so incredibly cruel to continue their A's. How many d-days for you now, perhaps 3 or 4 is it?

Different people have different opinons on whether or not to demand that contact should stop. What you must realise is that this could be quite a lengthy process before things get better. Your H will probably go through withdrawal as well. Whatever you decide to do, try to give yourself and your emotions some time to settle - you must be incredibly hurt.

I don't have much else to say, but am sure that people will come along with some wise words. Keep posting, as sometimes posts can be missed. The other thing I've found is because this is a Yank website, quite often you get a lot of replies in the morning because of the different time zones.

Wishing you well from London

Lisa

I am so sorry that you are going through this pain. It is the worst thing you will ever go through. I don't have a whole lot of wisdom but I can so relate to what you are going through. My WH continued contact with OW long after original d-day. There were many more. I believe now that the fog is finally lifting and he is on his way back to me and our family. It has been a long horrible road that I wish no one had to experience. It takes time and a lot of Plan A'ing and strength. I was very weak when it came to my WH. I have now become strong and can stand on my own 2 feet without him. He knows now that I can live and make it w/o him. He respects me now. My guard is by no means down but I am continuing with Plan A and hope that he is truly coming out of the fog. It's hard. Extremely hard to continue to be slapped in the face with repeated A's. My WH did the same as yours. He would tell me he hadn't seen OW or had any contact with her. I would be making wonderful progress and trying to get peace back in my M and wham! I would find out that he had had contact with her. Unfortunately, he will probably have to know that he will lose everything and even then it may take him a while. I'm here to talk if you need too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dear Lisa and Stillcrazy4him
thank you so much for taking the time to read my post and reply!

Lisa, my H won't go to counselling and won't read anything,refused to do the emotional needs questionnaire...nothing, just really thinks it can be brushed aside. This really worries me but I feel that I have hit a wall with this and can't keep asking/nagging him to do what he doesn't want to. I had not thought of his behaviour as disrespectful but you are so right and it has really made me think. I think the worse feeling is humiliation right now.
Stillcrazy4him, it was both comforting and depressing to read your post-depressing because although I am steeling myself to accept that contact between my H and OW will probably continue for a while, every time I find out evidence it really is a physical impact and it feels horrible. And I hate myself for always checking and being suspicious. I find it so hard to see how I will ever get over that.
I wil try reading the books you mentioned Lisa-I have several already and they are all helpful in a way.
Thanks again
Deluded

Hi Deluded

I hate to say it, but it sounds to me if your H is continuing the A. I am no expert, but there are many out on these boards who could help you, but the fact that he wants to brush everything aside and not address anything rings alarm bells to me. If he were truly remorseful and wanting to rebuilt your M, I think he would want to look at these things, but perhaps more importantly, look at himself and why he had the A.

I am so sorry if this upsets you, and as I say, I am no expert, but I know from my own point of view, it is absolutely vital to try and find out why this happened. Please don't misunderstand me, I am still struggling with whether my H and I have a future, but what I did was wrong beyond belief, and I have to work that out for myself. I would also desperately like us to go to MC because it would help so much to have an independent third party to help us through some of these things.

Your H flat out refusing to discuss anything, read anything or be involved in MC will make it very hard for you. Could you book a session with Relate or find out about it in your area anyway? I know that it can take several weeks before you get an appointment, and also there is no reason why you should not go by yourself which may be helpful.

IMHO, if your H will not engage in any dialogue about why he did, and try to repair it with help, he is again being very disrespectful and selfish. It is difficult for any of us to own up to our mistake. BTW, do you have children?

Deluded keep posting here, and don't be afraid to bump up your post so more people may take a look.

Wishing you well from London.

Lisa

Hi Deluded,
Welcome to MB, and thanks for sharing your story. as you have found out, there are plenty of people here in the same boat! In my case, as you can see from my sig line, my WW's affair & contact continued behind my back (and I knew it took place, but it was consistently denied, unless proved black on white which I did to her every other week) for almost 6 months after D-Day. I'm in London, by the way.
What did I do to make her stop it?
1. plan A'd big time
2. monitored her contacts
3. confronted her every other week or so with evidence - not love busting, but simply saying "I know you are still in contact. It makes me sad. You know, time is running out for me - I cant put a lot of energy into our relationship if I know that you're still in contact" or something along these line
4. the above statements were actually true in my case - I simply *could not* bear it any longer, day by day. So, finally I've reached to end of the road where I said: I leave soon. I can't. (sort of pre-plan B announcemnet). I *would* have left - so my messasge was v credible (comparing with your story, it seems you kicked him out maybe too early)
5. ... and that helped! so contact was broken then. it didnt solve all our problems (see my postings), but one hurdle was taken.

Some on this board disagree with 'monitoring' and 'spying' as it makes you crazy. true. an alternative is to turn it upside down, so that he has to proof his innocence as opposed to you proofing his guilt. As you have found out, being taken once, twice, or many times for a ride makes trust difficult.

Hope that helps
regards
Nick

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Hello Nick ,thanks for your reply.
I haven't read your posts yet but will.I have read some of Lisa in London's.
Lisa I agree that it is likely that the A is ongoing. H and I had a long very volatile confrontation last night-sadly I became quite distressed and hysterical-we started talking about the A and I pushed him to tell me how long it had been going behind my back.It seems that he lied about ending it in June at the conference-he may have talked about it but they still slept together and he says they had no contact for "a couple" of weeks.Which probably means a week at best. And then it carried on relentlessly. He says he has been thinking about what I would do if I found out that it was ongoing,and says that even 3 weeks ago at the fancy hotel(the one after which she left the most recent messages) he was not intending to end it. He insists that he doesn't want to leave -accuses me of not loving him-I did tell him that I wasn't IN LOVe with him at the moment because of all the hurt but that I do love him. He refuses to see the difference. Also because of the eternity ring (its an emerald and I'm not supposed to get it wet!) I have been taking my rings off and forgetting to put them on and he keeps asking me why and says " it's clear its symbolic". At which point I usually ask him if he is pushing me to force him to leave.
He did admit that he only gave me my eternity ring back again because his mother and sisters in law would be there with their rings. Major blow for me as he knew what it would mean to me.
I suppose me losing it last night,hitting the wall(literally!) and screeching at him was a major LB but I just felt so tormented and shattered by realising that the affair never stopped at all despite my best PLan A efforts .
Nick I guess I did kick him out too early and that is why I haven't done it again as if I do it has to be full-on PLan B I suppose?
Part of me is desperate enough to do it to make him realise he could lose everything. He did actually say last night that he had started to realise that this is not a game (!!!!!!!!!) and that he could lose me and the girls-that he had spent long hours watching me and the girls sleep(this is a man who sleeps for England!!!)and that the affair hadn't been the same since the initial D day. A glimmer of hope or am I Deluded by name and by nature?
I don't think I am ready to Plan B yet-but I think I am pretty close. I might suggest counselling again and see how it goes down. We are going out tonight for our weekly "date",instead of H going to stay with his brother near London. Inconvenient for him as he has to get up v early tomorrow and drive to Basingstoke from Plymouth to catch a train to Waterloo. I said I didn't want him to stay overnight as he is away Thurs night as well-he said our date nights hadn't been much fun lately-largely because I give him a hard time with questions about OW and contact. He then said if it carried on like that I'll push him away and that's how the whole thing blew up last night.Sorry its all out of sequence.
He has phoned me today to confirm that I want to go out tonight so we will see...
Lisa I tried Relate for a few sessions wshortly after D day 1 and didn't find it v helpful by myself-after all I can see where I have failed to meet some of his EN's just by self reflection.I also saw a private counsellor but stopped seeing her as she was too overtly critical of H which in a way didn't help-I needed to find out why not condemn him as an ar***-I already know he is that!
I Have booked to see a solicitor next week also to find out where I stand. Information is power. I don't intend to tell H yet though.
Lisa I read your thread (is that the right lingo?) today and thank you for mentioning my post. Can I say something as a brand new MB? I told my H not to tell me he loves me as I don't believe it but I still wish more than anything that he would tell me and tell me and keep telling me like he means it! I know our situations are different but I wondered if your H might need that too? Sorry if that is out of line!
Nick,with regards to checking and spying-how did you manage to get your info-I feel a strong need to monitor him but apart from his mobile when I can get hold of it or storming/sneaking into his office there is no way unless I was to get PI to bug his office. And how do you feel so sure there is no contact between your WW and OM now ? I don't know how I will ever trust my instincts again
Regards from sunny Devon
and thanks
Deluded

Hi Deluded

New or old to MB, please feel free to make any comment you want!! I actually appreciate what you said - I think because it has happened more than once, that's why it is difficult to continue saying it. However, back to you...

I am glad to see Nick giving you some advice and as I say, more pepole will come along.

One thing I picked up on is that your H throwing the ball back into your court (you don't love me, the ring stuff), is just him trying not to take responsibility for his actions. I will never ever try and justify the A to my H. It was wrong, and whatever our problems it should never have happened. If I could wind the clock back and tell H that I was unhappy and on the verge of doing something so very damaging and stupid, I would. I think something along the lines of this as a starting point would mean a lot to you. He cannot blame your for what he did. He has to own up to it - you have already identified that you may not have been meeting his needs, but that doesn't mean it's your fault. Frankly, if you hated him right now, he should feel lucky that you actually have some feeling for him!!!!

With Relate, if it didn't feel right going by yourself (although people do), why not look for an IC who is Relate trained. The woman I see is Relate trained but does IC. It may be important for you and your well being to continue. Sometimes, although it is hard to explain your story again, it's necessary so you can find the right person.

Don't worry about loosing it last night - these things happen, you're human and it is still early days. Just try not to let it happen too often. As a sometimes vulnerable even though remorseful WS, too much ranting and raving can make you retreat and become defensive. Nick is also right, if you want to spy, you must be prepared for the hurt this may cause you if you find out your H is still in contact.

One final thing, he has said he doesn't want to leave you and he realises this isn't a game. Although very tiny things to you right know, they're positive signs of where he wants to be.

Keep your chin up and wishing you well from London.
Lisa

Hi Deluded

it takes a bit to start posting but from one who has only just started it will really help. I really feel for the fact that your H is acting the way he is. I don't know much but I do know that one of the hardest things for me during my wife's EA was her dishonesty. I won't bore you with my story (it's here in case you have time) but since we have managed to be honest with one another (straight after the PA started) it has made my life and my R with her a lot easier and better though we still have a long way to go.

So perhaps start by asking your h simply to be honest with you. Try telling him, calmly, that all you want is the truth, because however hurtful (and he will be afraid that if he tells you the truth you will throw it back in his face, start DV proceedings etc) it will at least allow you to consider your feelings and responses honestly rather than just blowing up beacuse you're scared. If you can get him to understand this then you have a start.

It is important though that when he does then tell you the truth - and at first it is likely to be very small bits to test the waters - that you just simply say something like "thank you for telling me the truth. I need to think about what this means to me / makes me feel but I appreciate your honesty". And then take time out to really think it over. If he can see that it is "safe" to tell you the truth then he might - and as you said "knowledge is power".

All this is of course just my thoughts - and hell knows I'm no MC - but I hope its helpful. You should also maybe think about a phone session with Steve Harley. I had my first recently (set up a pre-pay cheap calls deal to the US - only 3p per min) and it helped so much. How he manages to be so astute over the phone I just don't know. And it certainly isn't a "ping" your time is up scenario - I almost felt guilty about the amount of extra time he spent with me. It's not cheap but if you can afford it I'd say give it a try.

Hang in there - Devon is where I grew up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hello Bowd,
thanks for your post. I have read your story and am impressed by your fortitude-I could not tolerate my H openly spending tme with OW. But I do agree with some of the other posts-she is definitely a cake-eater-or at least was then. A week is a long time in infidelity-what is happening now with your WW?
I was interested in you having had a telephone session with SH. How did you set it up and how quickly did you manage to arrange it? I would really like to do that I think.
Bowd I was struck by your WW's strong need to have children as the need to have a baby can be very strong and compelling . Are you equally driven? Of course having a baby is no sticking plaster for a marriage but I assume you have explored the causes/possibilities regarding your subfertility as a couple?
How easy is it to Plan A when you are living apart? I find it hard enough when my WH is still living at home,with our busy lives,and finding time apart from the children is difficult also.I doubt we spend 15 hours a week just together. What would make you go to Plan B?
thanks again for your reply,
regards
Deluded

Thank you to everyone who has posted a reply so far. I have been reading these boards for ages now and wish I had posted earlier as already it is so comforting and helpful to be getting advice from people who are going thru the same thing. I would appreciate any other thoughts that anyone out there has!!
Thanks again
Deluded

Hi deluded,

glad to be of any help and thank you for your thoughts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I could not tolerate my H openly spending tme with OW </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I take her seeing the OM because it is her life. I can only control me and make decisions about my life. Right now (and yes it swings back and forth) I feel I can cope because they don't see each other very often (living on different continents) so I can't see any long term future for them. Of course that doesn't mean my WW will choose to come back and try again with me but at least I will have a clear conscience. As for coping when they are together I don't and just try and remember the sig of someone on here to remember to breathe...

And besides do you find it easier wondering if your H is spending time with OP? I know I didn't when I didn't know. In my opinion at least knowing means I can know my feelings about what is going are true - whatever they are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was interested in you having had a telephone session with SH. How did you set it up and how quickly did you manage to arrange it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I emailed Steve through the link in the main part of this site about counselling and got a reply in about 24 hours. Given the time difference setting up a (US) midday apt - probably not Steve's busiest time - was very quick - I think a couple of days. Do it - you won't regret it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was struck by your WW's strong need to have children as the need to have a baby can be very strong and compelling </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would love to have children with my wife. I think I didn't express to her how much it meant to me as I didn't want to up the pressure - advice from GP etc. We had all the tests - nothing wrong. Advice was IVF - which we looked into and jointly decided we didn't want to get into - the treadmill can be so depressing and the techniques phsyically very invasive. We started looking into alternatives - getting healthier etc but it was a little too late I fear - last nov. But I still hope.

I have to go sleep now - early train tomorrow - yeuch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Take care - I'll check in tomorrow pm

Thanks for starting this thread. You posed a question that's a big issue for me, too, about breaking the bond between the WH and the OW. How long can it take?

D-Day was 4 months ago for me, when he confessed to a series of affairs, the latest of which had lasted 2 years and was still going. I made the me-or-her ultimatum, and within 24 hours he'd decided he wanted to stay with me. But he was still clearly hugely attached to her, and although he told me that she was 'a terrifying woman', and that he'd never wanted to leave me for her, I couldn't get him to definitively end it. He refused to send an NC message, and still won't. He swore that he wouldn't contact her, but I discovered (by snooping) last week that he'd sent her a text message for her birthday, and then she left him a long and 'I miss you, darling' voice-mail (he told me about this.)

We've fought about this ever since, LBs all the way. He says I can't expect him to just forget her, that he doesn't want to meet her or sleep with her, but that he does want to know how she is, whether she's still with her husband, where's she's living, if she's OK. He says he feels guilty about 'misleading' her that they could have a future together. He insists that the books don't apply to his situation,and that I should show some flexibility on the subject. He says she's meant everything to him for 2 years, that he's spoken to her several times a day all this time, and that he misses her like mad. We went away for the weekend, and he was angry and bad-tempered the whole time, I think because I wasn't her.

Well, I can understand the withdrawal syndrome, and I can empathise with his pain. But I can't seem to get through to him that there can be no neat ending in this situation, and that for the sake of the recovery I can't allow any contact at all. This recent contact has stirred everything up again, and sent us back to square one. I feel that he's going to slip pretty soon, and find some excuse in his mind for doing it.

After 4 months, I thought the worst of the need for her would be over. Was that naive of me? How long can this go on for?

<strong>
Nick,with regards to checking and spying-how did you manage to get your info-I feel a strong need to monitor him but apart from his mobile when I can get hold of it or storming/sneaking into his office there is no way unless I was to get PI to bug his office.
</strong>

Touchy subject... I'm a bit of a computer geek; there is software out there which, once installed, logs every keystroke into a file which you can look at afterwards. That way, one can retreive passwords and everything someone else typed on the computer.

<strong>
And how do you feel so sure there is no contact between your WW and OM now ? I don't know how I will ever trust my instincts again
</strong>

it's a mixture of "gut feel" and not observing any contact (phone logs, emails) at all. By the time, I learnt to understand the reactions of my wife; e.g. when she's spoken to OM she would behave differently. Once I knew what was going on, I started to develop a gut feel - I didnt even have to check my "intelligence sources" to prove that WW had been in contact.
Now, since September, I'm pretty pretty sure that contact has stopped. Sure at a 100%? No. I can't. The element of mistrust will be with me for a long time, forever perhaps. Sometimes I'm haunted by thoughts of they simply being craftier and outsmarting me.... But no, I'm reasonably sure now that contact has stopped.

Hi TogetherAlone,it sounds like you are struggling with a similar situation to me.I think the answer must be that your WH and OW have had more contact than he is admitting to since D Day and that therefore even if he won't admit it the A is continuing though maybe not full on. I am sorry to say this as I know how hurtfull it is and that it will bring back all your pain of discovery again.
I know that I can't stop my WH from making contact with OW or receiving contact. He won't read anything either and sneers at my reading etc.But all the advice seems to be repeatedly to keep PLan A going . And I think a bit of snooping is a defence mechanism and in a way makes it harder for contact to continue. My WH has obviously told OW not to leave messages on his mobile.But she can't stop herself sometimes! But it means she can't contact him when he is at home now.
I think as long as a WS refuses to go to counselling or read anything and still talks fondly about the OW assume contact is ongoing.I've learned that the hard way.And hope I have impacted on WH a bit that he reallycan't be a cake-eater.The 6 months since D day 1 must have been great for him! A wife madly Plan A ing and meeting as many of his EN's as I could especialy SF and then his OW still providing EN's and presumably SF also on the occasions when they met!
Bowd, thaks for your post.OW lives a long way from us so they only have physical contact infrequently ie when he goes away to a meeting and stays overnight. Unless he is driving 4 hours round trip to meet her during a working day in which case I think I would know as he couldn't do his job properly! And he always denies contact so I never know.You are right though,the wondering is awful. I used to spend the nights he was away with afriend and a bottle of wine,being reassuured that it was all over and he wasn't with her. Which is why it was all the more humiliating to find out I was wrong every time(nearly).
Gotta go but hope the train wasn't the usual disaster!
Regards,
Deluded

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> hope the train wasn't the usual disaster </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope - only 20 minutes late <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You sound a bit more positive Deluded - I hope the posting / reading is helping - I know it does me.

Nick
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> software out there which, once installed, logs every keystroke into a file which you can look at afterwards </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Got to laugh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I use the same: when my WW asked how I had got into her "secret" email account and I told her, her reply was "that'll teach me to marry someone clever"

Interestingly I can't stand myself for snooping and try not too - it's why I have asked - and I think why my WW has agreed - to always tell me the truth now if I ask. It means I don't have to snoop. But if your H won't Deluded, then snoop away - just remember to breathe and be calm if you show him the evidence.

Take care

Dear deluded,

As always welcoming new people here...is sad...but welcome...

You can not change him or anyone else..just yourself...that mantra is not meant to drag you or anyone else down ...it is to empower you to find control in those things that you do control and can change....

Your spouse has said a lot of things that are fog talk..and deep down he knows it...but he has also said some positive things...things that some people would give thier teeth to hear...

"He did actually say last night that he had started to realise that this is not a game (!!!!!!!!!) and that he could lose me and the girls-that he had spent long hours watching me and the girls sleep(this is a man who sleeps for England!!!)and that the affair hadn't been the same since the initial D day"

Those are good...whoo hooo in a sarcastic sort of way!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Plan A is about you and you alone...it is about reconizing those things within you that you would like to change about you...it is becoming that person that you see yourself being....

There are posts on divorce busting and tips called 180's..these are just remindful guidelines of how to handle things...here are a few that could help on date night...

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
10. Do not spy on spouse
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.

These sound scarey and impossible..but they are just guidelines...and reviewing them can even just empower us a little to hold tight..they don't apply to everything/one...and they should certainly never be used to beat ourselves up when we slip up....you are facing true pain...

I would also plan some really fun family activities with the girls...invite him...and act very unconcerned if he doesn't come.(consider planning some fun things during time you suspect he may be with OW>....but if he does come, show him a great time...this is not to now or ever use children as pawns...but it is to remind him of realistic consequances to his actions of what he stands to lose...don't tell him SHOW him...also show him someone strong enough to make it with out him...but verbalize you want him not to be needy...but because you do love him and value him...

I think you need a good plan A..as well as some 180's so that help you find some control in your life....please read up on plan A...

It is common that the WS rejects the actions that are Plan A...
...It could be guilt (how come you(FS) are soooo good to me)
...It could be disbelief... consistancy pays off here!
...It could be anger with self(WS's self)... it happens...
...It could a misconception... that it is too late...
......it is almost never too late... if that is what your heart believes.

...give the WS some gentle breathing room...
...but... continue to be totally honest... and state your feelings... as well as your intentions to show your love through your actions.

Plan A is to focus on you... not your H...
You can do all the changes for yourself...
...and if your H doesn't see them...
...it's not your fault!
Plan A make you a better person... period!
Once you can accept that your Love Bank balance can and most likely will go to zero...
...then... and only then go to Plan B...
Anxiety can be countered with (medication to a lesser degree)...
...but counseling, therapy... and huge shot of "faith restoration"...
Focus on relationship building

relationship building is also founded on
no LBs,
meeting needs,
honesty and
time!
Then applying it to everyone else in your life...
...with a great deal of patience...
...(humans are fickle)...
...will lead you to your own peace!
It's not so much a "letting go"...
...as finding your way back to a healthier journey. **(Can't take credit for this a lot of cut and pasting

Acknowledge the discressions that you caused in the marriage..apoliogize sincerely ...Face that and move on...

Also read and think about disclosing his affair..he sounds protective of mom and sis even suspecting anything is a amiss...read WATS recent post on this as well as a search...It is not a decision to be taken lightly BUT it is a consequance to his actions..and you are not responsible for his actions.....

He will do what he will...you can only do for you...

much luck...much strength...
ARK

Dear Ark
Thankyou for your post. It was good to read it because it made me realise that what I thought was plan A was actually being quite needy and not at all me... and therefore unsustainable . I was scared to be myself and worried that I would backtrack to the conditions that led to the A in the first place. But I have gradually realised that a true Plan A is about being true to myself. After D Day 1 I tried hard to be a good wife,spent more time at home when WH was home,wouldn't go out if he was there,tried to be the perfect wife. But that's not really me and if the real me was good enough for him 12 years ago,that's what I need to find again. I WAS needy at first after D day 1-begged him not to go etc, So now I will be cool but not frosty,interested in him and his day but not obsessed, and plan lots of fun stuff with our girls and see if he wants to join in...I think he will.
Re disclosure- WH doesn't know that I have told his parents 2 weeks ago,after D day 2,about the A. They were very distressed for me and have been very loyal and supportive both to me directly and indirectly via my sisters in law who don't know the whole story. One of his brothers knows and is very supportive but is unfortunately going through the same thing with his WW! What a family-another brother is apparently having an A with his secretary and has been for 2 years! my WH has told him apparently. I initially didn't want anyone to know as I felt humiliated but lately have started to see that no one can judge me by WH's actions-only my own. I do feel though that I cannot tell my own parents-partly because they are so far away(in Oz) but mainly beacuse they are struggling with Mum's deteriorating health(cancer). I wish I could tell them but it would burden them too much. Should I tell our friends also?
Bowd, I do feel stronger now and I thank MB for that-reading and posting has really helped me so much!
Nick and Bowd, I do think that snooping has been something that has both helped me and wound me up more-but if I hadn;t how would I ever have found out? WH has been in the habit of lying consistently about OW so I feel snooping is fair game at the moment(even though I disgust myself for doing it). My WH works for the NHS so installing the software you mentioned Nick and then checking it would be nigh on impossible. Just more out of hope than expectation though, would it be possible to access his email from home? He does not have home email(I am sure about this).
Lisa in London,thanks for your comments. I may well try and find another counsellor-tried diazepam and sleeping tablets which helped a lot at first but can't rely on them-they make me a bit erratic in my reactiosn too and I think I keep control better without them. A question for you though as a FWS-when you first started your A,did you acknowledge to yourself that that is what you were doing, and do you think that there was anything that would have made you stop it before it became too serious? Just trying to understand what my WH was thinking really...BTW whereabouts in Somerset is your Mother moving to?We used to live near Taunton and know it v well.
Regards to all -raining like cats and dogs here today!
Deluded

<strong>
Just more out of hope than expectation though, would it be possible to access his email from home? He does not have home email(I am sure about this)
</strong>

unless he uses your home PC to check his work email through the web, there's no chance for you to check on this.
but be aware that it is v. easy to open a yahoo account or hotmail account somewhere and maintain secret conversations. that's what my WW did at least, but tracked down every last of their 20+ email accounts (!)
It's really sad to observe to what great length the 'loverbirds' go when they are in addiction/denail/fog stage. All while maintaining a family life, and complaining about "tensions in the house".

Regards from sunny London
N

Ok Thanks Nick, so maybe I do need the software as I can't trust anything about what H may or may not be capable of right now! Where do I get it from,any advice?
Have you and WW started counselling yet-how is it going?
Regards
Deluded