Question for you all...

Brief update on my story:

Wife is beginning to see my changes. She's reacting a lot more receptive towards me, but she is still certain she can't be with me the rest of her life. She wants to share her happiness with the OM and not with me. Every now and then she turns back and is very cold/distant towards me.

Last week we had a wonderful talk where she asked me about what I was feeling. She cried many times and asked me how does she do it, meaning make our M work. I think her point is that she *loves* the OM and can't take him out of her heart for this M.

Last night she said that as of Nov 16th she meets the residency requirements in TX to file for divorce and we could be divorced as early as January 16th but she hasn't done it yet. I don't know why she told me this.

Anyway, I told her yesterday that I remembered her question to me as to how she can be part of making the M work and asked her if she would be willing to go to the Retrouvaille weekend program. I had mentioned this to her right after the first d-day in March and after reading the brochure said she really didn't want to. To my surprise, this time she didn't say no, but neither did she say yes. She told me she would consider it because of me so I can have peace within me and accept that our M cannot work. She asked me if after going through this program I would stop looking for things to make the M work. My answer was that my hopes are still there and that I will not give them up until the divorce and maybe sometime after that. I also said that if I thought there was something good, program, website, book, etc. I was still going to suggest it but that I would respect her decision if she said no.

At the end of the conversation she said she was going to think about it.

What do you think? Is it too early to do this? The next one is Dec 6th and then I would have to wait until Jan 17th. Is she not ready to go to retrouvaille? Is this program ONLY for couples where both want to work on the M?

I'm interested in all opinions especially those who have gone through it. I want to make sure the timing is right.

Thanks.

Utterly,

I am a big Retrovaille fan, it was our first step and we are coming up on one year in pretty good shape. I'm not Catholic or particularly religious, but it didn't matter, it is a great program. The one thing they ask however is that if there is a third person involved or drugs being taken etc that those things be given a rest while the program is under way. I vote for going, just hearing some of the horror stories from the presenters is enough to convince you that anything can be fixed. Let me know will you? I wish you the very best, your situation sounds hauntingly and painfully familiar.

Jack

Dear Utterly, I enquired about this program some time ago (in Australia, where I live). They suggested the affair should be over before entering this program. Is the A over? I can't really tell from your post. You might want to talk to someone at Retro... re this.

Generally you will get more benefit if both want to work on the marriage. If you force it too soon it may
a) get the results you want
b) be a totally frustrated because only you are serious about it and your not getting results or
c) it may push the ws away further.

Good luck with it.

Dear utterly, I realised later that my post may not have been much help to you.

Could I offer this suggestion for you to think about (you may have already done this).

Make and appointment with Steve Harley for yourself, your wife or both (if she wants it) to see where to go from here.

SH

"She told me she would consider it because of me so I can have peace within me and accept that our M cannot work. "

Hmmm... that's a common WS trait maybe. I'm struggling from something similar at my end; at the MC, WW said that we are way too different and that the MC program will help me understand that the relationship cannot work therefore. Well, she didnt put it that harshly, and that was sort of the bottom line of the first session.
But interestingly, her actions didn't match this statement at all.... I think this attitude is more of a protective shell to justify past actions.

In your case, I would judge her by her actions, not by her words... and let her know how you feel about her actions (positive & negative)

UC-

If I were you, I'd definitely go the extra mile to get her to attend Retrouvaille. From what I've heard it's a very dynamic and emotional program./

A close family member and her spouse attended this program and they were both VERY impressed with it. Their M was in serious trouble and apparently this Retrouvaille was the turning point as they are now doing much better.

I've tried as recently as a couple of weeks ago to get my wife interested in going (without success) Anyway, good luck to you!

UC-

I just LOVE answering questions about Retrouvaille <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I truely think it is the best program around for learning how to "stay married and fall back in love." My H and I made our weekend in October of 01 and we were the "angel" couple for the October 02 weekend. We also help out with post meetings and are even throwing around the idea of becoming a presenting couple <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The one caution I will give you is: your W has to be willing to try. If she isn't, this weekend will not help you much. She has to be willing to be open and honest. You may want to tell her there is no talking or fighting about past or present "issues" at the weekend. There will not be anyone there telling her she is awful or bad. She doesn't have to talk about the problems you guys are having at all. As a matter of fact, one of the first things you are told when you get there is leave your problems at the door, they won't be needed for the weekend.

If I can help more, let me know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thank you all for your advice.

Her EA is still going strong, in fact she's coming up next weekend to spend Thanksgiving with him. She will stay at a friend's house but he paid for the airfare ticket.

She keeps telling me she just knows this is the love of her life and that it is not infatuation and that she's not "in love" with him but it is real love. She wants to share everything she has, give herself totally to him. She wants to share her happiness, her being, etc.

She says she's enjoying her *single* life. It is something she did not have a chance to do because she married when she was 21. Also says that even if the R with OM does not work out she rather be alone than with me (ouch!), and that even if our M could work out she simply does not want to anymore.

So, that's why I have doubts about doing Retrouvaille right now. If she's going to be thinking about him all that weekend and drop off the follow up sessions than I think it's hard it will work out. But I keep having hopes that maybe something in this program will clear up part of the fog.

I have a decision to make. Any more advice is welcomed.

<small>[ November 21, 2002, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: utterlyconfused ]</small>

Hi again UC,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She keeps telling me she just knows this is the love of her life and that it is not infatuation and that she's not "in love" with him but it is real love. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">huh??? you know when you hear this stuff and you say "huh???" its fog. Try to learn to not take this stuff too personally. I know it hurts, I've heard the same speil, we all have.

In fact going through what you said she said in the first post, a lot of it dosen't make sense.

Look utterly, I've been where you are, in general, unless she is a willing participant and the A is over, this stuff is not going to work. For marital recovery to work, the affair has to be over. Hopefully some more experienced MBers will jump in here if they think I'm wrong.

Can I suggest again you contact Steve Harley? Maybe your wife will speak to him about how you two could fall in love again.

I'm not saying Retro... isn't good at what they do, its obvious by what others are saying it is, but I don't know that you will get what you are hoping for from it. Why not contact someone there and ask for their advice?

The positive things you have said is that she is seeing the changes. That is good, keep working on that. Just keep letting her know you don't want the divorce, she hasn't done it yet, so that's something.

What do you think? Is it too early to do this? The next one is Dec 6th and then I would have to wait until Jan 17th. Is she not ready to go to What do you think? Is it too early to do this? The next one is Dec 6th and then I would have to wait until Jan 17th. Is she not ready to go to retrouvaille? Is this program ONLY for couples where both want to work on the M?
This program is for couples who want to go to this program. If she doesn't want to "work on the marriage" why would she go to retrouvaille?

After reading my response, it sounded a bit sarcastic. It wasn't meant that way.

As a bs, we want to and are willing to do anything we can to fix stuff and get things back on track. However, the ws may not have the same idea, thoughts and feelings, especially if they are still involved with the op. Even if the affair is over, they may not want to do anything. This is the reason you are in "doormat mode" Plan A. So they can feel comfortable with/around you and eventually they will see you are taking this serious and not just a "ploy" to get them into the marriage again.

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris (CA123):
<strong>
This program is for couples who want to go to this program. If she doesn't want to "work on the marriage" why would she go to retrouvaille?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know what you are saying and I am puzzled why she told me she would consider it and think about it. Her reason, pretty much, is so I can have peace and finally accept the inevitable (divorce).

My hope is/was that this may start lifting the fog. My plan A has started doing this but I thought that Retrouvaille could be a wake up call. However, reading what others think, my best bet is to call the Retrouvaille leadership, explain my situation and get their take on this. I am pessimistic that it is a good idea because as she put it to me today (and before) he is the one, the love of her life.

I revised my post above.

One of the things ws may do is to agree to counseling so they can help the bs "just get over it." Either they come out and say they want to work it ou (with the actual plan only to help you) or they may just flat out tell you it is ONLY for you.

IF you choose a good counselor, this plan can backfire on the ws. If the counselor is actually interested in saving the marriage, then (counselor( can actually turn the ws around.

From what I have heard of Retrouvaille, this is possible because the concentration is on each other and good stuff, not on each others faults and why the marriage couldn't work.

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

I am beginning to think it is not such a good idea. Listening to her it does not sound like she's getting out of the fog any time soon. Today is a day I feel like throwing in the towel.

How do you find out about the dates, etc for Retroville... it has been reccomended to me, and I never followed up on it...

Definitely GO!

Please let me know how you got the dates, etc. I am about to leave for church, but really want to know when it is...

Thanks- I am in Houston, tx.

Thanks a million.. sorry for asking on your thread, but it seems to have the Retrouville talk.

Also, my h an d I started counseling again, now that the A is over last week and he is going next week... the counselor sd the best thing that we can do is rebuild the love to save the M, and my ws is responsive to doing that.

THan ks for the topic, believe, anything is possible.
Hugs, H

Oops, I just saw your post about getting ready to give up. DON'T. Be strong and believe in her and the M. The fog is thick and it comes and goes...

My H was saying awful things to me yesterday... foggy fog fog... then later sd the sweetest and kindest things... I see him returning slowly.. it has been 13 months for us.... we will survive and make it IF I KEEP BELIEVING... If I don't we are doomede... I have to believe for both of us now... love him unconditioanlly with agape lvoe.

THe ws is not capable of that right now.. show the ws what love is and can be.

Hugs, HONEY

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>show the ws what love is and can be.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW!

These few words are so powerful! Thanks, Honey.

I have told my friends as well as my W that if what I am going through and doing does not prove my love to her, I don't know what else could. The fact of the matter is, this week she told me that she's beginning to see that I indeed love her but is still not convinced.

Part of the problem is that our definition of love is different. To me, love is a verb, an action a decision. I could feel something for you but if I don't act on it then that's not love. Also, love just doesn't happen overnight, it takes time and CARE like a plant or a flower. To her love can happen overnight and it comes to you, you don't look for it. The feeling is so intense it is unmistakeable. There is ONE person in the world you are meant to be with. It is wanting to share everything you have with him even if he does not return it back. It is the one you want to give yourself totally. In fact, she believes that if this time around things don't work out between the OM and her, years later they will meet up again under more favorable circumstances because HE is the love of her life (kind of reminds me of the movie Serendipity).

Initially she disagreed with my love is not a feeling it is a decision, now she's revised her definition to fit the love is a decision part. She says that what she feels for the OM is so intense, she *decides* to act on it by giving herself to him.

My question is if God is love, would love destroy a M and steal a child the chance to grow up with his two parents (working on the M, of course)? What makes them so special that they are entitled to cause so much hurt around them (family and friends) so they can be happy?

btw. here's the link to Retrouvaille Retrouvaille. Click on weekends to see the schedule or if you prefer click here: Weekend Schedule

Thanks for the info on Retrouville, sp? I am excited and asking ws to attend in Jan.

Healing a marriage with infidelity is a LONG process, because they have decided we just aren't worth it - and that is all part of the justification of the A.

I for one am willing to give it more than 200% to make my M work. It has been 13 months and things are better than before in the seperation and since I found out... My h is not who he once was to me, and I miss him dearly, but I hope and pray we will be together... we spent most of the wkend together and there is no ow...

He lb'd me several times and I responded in love..> i think i had one lb..

Fight for your M. It is worth it.

Hugs and luck, I will be following your story.

Honey