Okay here's the situation:

WW calls off A with OM, then OM gets severly injured in accident, then dies the same day that WW says she wants to recommit. Obviously she's sad and I don't care one bit about it. Two problems here: 1)I don't care that's she upset about it, and 2)What do I do knowing that I don't care about it.

I've been plan Aing for three months and she's in her own place. Should I be understanding if she wants to go to funeral? I know I'm sounding selfish, and that's another problem. Usually I'd be empathetic with my W and her feelings, but I just don't care.

Any insights into this would be helpful as only two days ago my WW was wanting to start the path to recovery. Now there's another landmine in the way. Thanks

Not letting, (infact i would encourage it if om is not married) Wife go to the funeral would be a big LB, and in plan a, you know. anyway. Its a funeral, how very tramatic for w. Try and be wonderful to her right now. You will earn brownie points.

Was om married???? If so, did spouse know of A?

I would kill her with my bare hands if she came to his funeral.

Wow, that was strong.

Bandit - ditto notgoingtodothis unless OM was married and his grieving widow knows about the affair and your wife as the OW.

How long was it between the accident and his death? The reason I ask is because if your wife re-committed to your marriage on the same day he died and he didn't die right away, then she did this despite maybe having sympathy for him. Or did she wait until he died and then came back to you because, well, he was dead?

Regardless, I'd suggest you support her in a big time Plan A. You don't have to pretend to grieve for him. If it were me, I'd go to the funeral myself just to make sure he was dead. Heck, I'd even want to throw dirt into the grave on the casket.

BTW, how'd you arrange the accident? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Disclaimer: I am not ashamed to make light of this guy's passing. While I don't necessarily wish for any one's untimely death, if my XW's new husband got hit by a truck today and died, I'd conclude it couldn't have happened to a more deserving guy.

The responses in this thread alone have convinced me that the HATE exhibited at this forum for PEOPLE WHO ARE PEOPLE AND MAKE MISTAKES--yes, HAVE AFFAIRS--is shameful to say the least, and I think this severe vengeance mentality has to be reexamined if we're going to jest at the expense of a dead person and put THAT little value on human life. It sickens me.

Do you think that most WS's CHOSE to develop emotional feelings for their OM's??? This OM was a person with feelings, fears, the ability to feel pain, sorrow, make mistakes, do wonderful things, too---JUST LIKE EVERY ONE OF YOU. The difference is that as the BS's you failed your spouse at some point and they developed feelings for someone who offered them what you couldn't or chose not to at the time. THEIR MISTAKE TO NOT PUT UP SAFEGUARDS/BOUNDARIES, granted, but this OM is gone and no physical threat to your M anymore....so allow your W to grieve and have some compassion for her, for God sake! Bandit, the way you talk shows no care at all for your wife and her feelings...affair, or no affair, I still think you sound COLD, man! NO BS SHOULD EXPECT HIS FORMER WS to hold back the grieving for someone she at one time considered a friend, let alone be cursed with a spouse who openly expresses a who-gives-a-damn attitude.

As far as attending the funeral, I wouldn't suggest it if there is a wife or if the BS is strongly opposed...as it sounds like you are. If I were your W and truly wanted to salvage my R w/you, and you strongly opposed to my attending the funeral, I wouldn't go, but I would send the OM's parents a card...for they are probably feeling the greatest pain at this time. But don't expect such a negative, uncompassionate attitude to win you any Brownie points....in fact, if you keep it up, I'd say count on some resentment coming your way, instead.

By the way, I am a former WS who was in a 2-yr. EA w/someone who was a family friend for 9 years, but I initiated NC before PA could take place. But he was still a friend first for a long time; I still maintain lots of good memories of this good person that can't just be flushed out of my mind automatically, regardless of my devotion to my H. And I've already considered this possible scenario of my former OM passing, myself, as I've had enough friends die of AIDS and other diseases at young ages that I know that life is fragile and we can go anytime. Grieving the loss of a friend is the most excruciating pain and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I have great compassion for your W. Good luck to you....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
<strong>Do you think that most WS's CHOSE to develop emotional feelings for their OM's???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, they all made a choice to have an affair. They chose to follow their feelings, fully knowing it is wrong, but justifying it out of selfishness. Period.

I do not feel hate or vengence. If I did, with the same emotion as a WS having an affair, I'd murder the OM. Same thing. I'd be following my feelings with selfish justification.

While I understand that since there was no relationship/friendship/anything between you and this man, except for the fact that he was involved in something with your W which caused you great sorrow...you wouldn't feel much or care deeply one way or the other at his death...he's a stranger to you.

Now, as for your W, regardless of her decision to return home and rebuild her marriage, there was a connection of some sort with OM. To deny her the right to grief will only backfire on you. Even if a betrayal had not taken place, since she knew him, she would grieve.

Yes, I understand that it would be difficult for you to be supportive of her at this time, as you can't share this grief in anyway. BUT...you can tell her that you understand her grief.

If she wants to go to the funeral, that is her choice. You had better be understanding if you want to continue doing plan A. I'm not saying you have to like it...but you must accept that she may need this to find real closure and put aside her guilt. (We do feel guilty when someone dies, even if from no actions of ours. She's going to be feeling extra guilty since she ended things with him right before he died. That's just how it is, no sense in fighting it.)

Yes, this is a landmine...now what do you want to do about it? Defuse it? Or step on it? You've got a chance of making some major love deposits...or you can make some major withdrawals. Up to you!

note...I am assuming that OM was NOT married.

Hey hey hey,

Lets all try to cool off here - while I hear what you're saying PP, about everyone being able to make mistakes and being upset about the intense feelings of "not caring" you have seen expressed on this thread, I think you are not quite appreciating where these guys are coming from.

WAT works really hard here with people who come to this forum for help - and he has a had a lot on his plate to deal with - his son became ill and died - throughout his son's illness, his neighbour comforted both he and his wife, and was a pallbearer at his son's funeral, then - made off with his wife! Go figure! What a friend! I can fully sympathize with WAT's "hard feelings".

Yes, a lot of WS who come on this forum have to brave the flames of the BS who respond to their posts, but I think if you read more fully, you will see many FWS here who receive a lot of support and are in turn very helpful to the BS on this forum - currently, I support Lisa in London, who is a FWW, and I have a lot of admiration for her.

WAT is right - yes, people who have affairs DO choose to allow their emotions to develop into an affair - they don't think they do at the time, but they do - they are lying to themselves and everyone else if they think they didn't have a choice in that matter.

Its not bandit's fault the OM was killed on the same day his wife decided to reconcile - its extremely bad luck - he is in the torrent of emotion of wanting to work on his marriage and finally having the chance, and you expect him to feel SYMPATHY for this guy - way off base, I think.

Yes, the OM was a person - and probably not an evil person. But he WAS intruding into another man's marriage, plain and simple.
If he was married, I would not in any way shape or form think it appropriate for bandit's wife to attend the funeral - she was the OW and her presence would be an offense to the OM's wife. But if he was single, then I think she should go if she wanted to, and bandit should grit his teeth and bear it - let her say her goodbyes.

These people have a lot to deal with - anger is certainly an appropriate part of their own grieving. Lets all try to be understanding and not so judgemental.

LIR

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong>[QUOTE]Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
[qb]Do you think that most WS's CHOSE to develop emotional feelings for their OM's???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, they all made a choice to have an affair. They chose to follow their feelings, fully knowing it is wrong, but justifying it out of selfishness. Period.

WAT & LIR,

"Following their feelings" and "choosing to have an affair" is different than having the emotional feelings and admiration develop after knowing an individual over a period of time. That was my experience, anyway, and the initial development of admiration was in no way something I had control over. "Following" feelings and choosing to engage in an affair, on the other hand, ARE actions that requires deliberation and a selfish spirit.

LIR, I recall WAT's own story (I was very saddened to read about his son's death many months ago, as I've been at MB actively since May). And I understand by his disclaimer that he's not ashamed of making light of the man's passing by joking to Bandit that he arranged the man's fatal accident. He has every right to have such hard feelings...and even vent that way, unfortunately. But it is still excessive, reflects hate and I would think would offend many WS newbies who might wander onto the site. It definitely saddened and disturbed me. Sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
<strong>... the initial development of admiration was in no way something I had control over. "Following" feelings and choosing to engage in an affair, on the other hand, ARE actions that requires deliberation and a selfish spirit. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my GOD! I swear, this needs to be screamed from the mountain tops!! This is the BEST way to describe the inner workings and responsibility of the infidel THAT I HAVE EVER READ ON THIS SITE.

Does EVERYONE see this?

Sorry, just had to jump in and say this...

Wow!

Aside from that, I don't even know what to say about the subject of this thread. It's sad that your wife is hurting bandit, and I can only hope that you aren't mocking her pain. Pain is pain is pain-- example: lung cancer for a smoker. Yeah, the person *caused* it by smoking, but pain is pain is pain, and we need to be compassionate about the pain - especially if it's someone we LOVE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Two problems here: 1)I don't care that's she's upset about it, and 2)What do I do knowing that I don't care about it." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you don't care about your WW's feelings then why do you want to remain married to her? Don't say it's because you still love her because true love is empathic of the painful feelings, right or wrong, of the loved one.

I have not been here for quite a while, but this topic hit close to home for me. My WW is involved in an EA with her old college professor, whose health is very shaky. He had a close call recently, and almost didn't make it.

I found that I had deeply ambivalent feelings about his continued existence. On the one hand, if he were out of the picture, I feel that it would be easier for my WW to re-engage with me in counseling and otherwise. On the other hand, I felt sick at heart that I could actually wish another person dead.

I do believe that it was important to allow myself to indulge in these feelings, if only for a while, instead of repressing them outright. I eventually made a consious decision that holding such hatred only demeaned me. This is not to say that my heart is full of love for the SOB. I just won't lower myself.

This said, I am afraid that I totally understand the anger.

First, let me say bandit, if you love your W (and you wouldn't be here if you didn't), support her through this. Fake it if you have to. It will mean alot down the line. This is a time to put your feelings aside and give her inconditonal love.

That said, I have a few words for PacificPrincess:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
<strong>Do you think hat most WS's CHOSE to develop emotional feelings for their OM's???....The difference is that as the BS's you failed your spouse at some point and they developed feelings for someone who offered them what you couldn't or chose not to at the time.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To answer your question, yes. You don't develop feelings for someone through osmosis. It happens by opening yourself up to that person.

In my case, my W developed feelings for her OM because she shared things with him that she never TRIED to share with me. There were no subtle comments or subliminal messages. She was unhappy for a long time, long before she met me, for reasons that have nothing to do with me. She hid them from me. Why? Because she didn't feel she could talk to me. How would she know if she didn't try? Her answer to that, "I don't know". It's not always as simple as a BS ignoring the WS's pleas or failing to see the signs. Sometimes there are no signs.

Sorry to hijack your post bandit.

sad dad

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
<strong>He has every right to have such hard feelings...and even vent that way, unfortunately. But it is still excessive, reflects hate and I would think would offend many WS newbies who might wander onto the site.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Princess, I must not have communicated well enough.

I don't have any emotion toward OM. I do not hate him. I feel nothing for him, so I don't have hard feelings. (So nothing of something cannot be excessive.) Quite the contrary, I feel nothing for him which is how I can have no concern whether he lives or dies. I care about every other living creature on this rock - even you. I even care for my XW who sought refuge anywhere (obviously!) to escape the pain of the loss of our son. A cockroach deserves to live. To me, OM deserves nothing.

If this offends WS newbies, so be it. If they're still infected by moose brain worms, perhaps they need to feel offended in order to see a little reality or gain some humbleness.

My track record towards WSs here is crystal clear. I have stated over and over that this forum could not be as effective without the participation of WSs. We need to communicate with unreformed WSs for two reasons. First, to give us practice and reminders that when dealing with affairees in heat we don't have to suspend disbelief as much as disengage our cerebral cortices to keep from going crazy ourselves, and secondly, to maybe, just maybe, reach them. This is EXACTLY why I am not shy about telling it the way it is or unabashedly communicating my thoughts and ideas. I have come to know many "recovered" WSs here. Just yesterday I received an e-mail from a former WS, whom along with her H I have met personally, announcing the birth of their first child.

Sorry Bandit, for hijacking this.

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

<<<The responses in this thread alone have convinced me that the HATE exhibited at this forum for PEOPLE WHO ARE PEOPLE AND MAKE MISTAKES--yes, HAVE AFFAIRS--is shameful to say the least>>>

2+2 = 5 is a mistake. An affair is a choice.

<<<and I think this severe vengeance mentality has to be reexamined if we're going to jest at the expense of a dead person and put THAT little value on human life. It sickens me.>>>

Never been through this on the other side, have you?

<<<Do you think that most WS's CHOSE to develop emotional feelings for their OM's???>>>

Yes, they do. They have the same choice all of us have -- to open up to an attractive person regardless, or to keep the boundaries in place to protect their own marriages and those of the fellow human beings you keep talking about.

<<<The difference is that as the BS's you failed your spouse at some point and they developed feelings for someone who offered them what you couldn't or chose not to at the time.>>>

Sorry, hon. In my case he wanted to be married at home and single at work. My failing was that I couldn't be five different women for him. Yeah, I should have tried to correct that.

<<<THEIR MISTAKE TO NOT PUT UP SAFEGUARDS/BOUNDARIES, granted, but this OM is gone and no physical threat to your M anymore....so allow your W to grieve and have some compassion for her, for God sake! Bandit, the way you talk shows no care at all for your wife and her feelings...affair, or no affair, I still think you sound COLD, man! NO BS SHOULD EXPECT HIS FORMER WS to hold back the grieving for someone she at one time considered a friend, let alone be cursed with a spouse who openly expresses a who-gives-a-damn attitude.>>>

Yes, it's all about you, isn't it? Let us know when you have sit in our position, and then tell us how good it would make you feel to do something like this.

<<<As far as attending the funeral, I wouldn't suggest it if there is a wife or if the BS is strongly opposed...as it sounds like you are. If I were your W and truly wanted to salvage my R w/you, and you strongly opposed to my attending the funeral, I wouldn't go, but I would send the OM's parents a card...for they are probably feeling the greatest pain at this time.>>>

Yes, I'm sure they'd be thrilled to hear from his married girlfriend. That would leave his family feeling so very proud.

<<<But don't expect such a negative, uncompassionate attitude to win you any Brownie points....in fact, if you keep it up, I'd say count on some resentment coming your way, instead.>>>

You're right. No husband should resent his wife wanting to go to her boyfriend's funeral. He shouldn't have resented her having someone in her life who made her so happy. What kind of people are we?

<<<By the way, I am a former WS who was in a 2-yr. EA w/someone who was a family friend for 9 years, but I initiated NC before PA could take place. But he was still a friend first for a long time; I still maintain lots of good memories of this good person that can't just be flushed out of my mind automatically, regardless of my devotion to my H.>>>

It's too bad your wonderful memories aren't less important than the torment you have put your husband through, and no doubt still continue to do, with attitudes like this.

But it's ok. My husband does the same thing. Everything is great at my house as long as I fully understand that:

1) There are some things we are never going to talk about.

2) There are some things he is never going to be sorry for.

3) I will be met with rage and bullied into submission if I dare to suggest otherwise.

I have no doubt he reacts this way because he feels the same way you do. He has wonderful memories of the terrific women he shared so much of his life with and he is not going to do anything that would betray them and his memories of them.

He can put me through the torments of hell, but that's ok. The important thing is never to say he was wrong and never to say one negative thing about the wonderful women who were such a delightful and important part of his work life.

It sickens me to think of how he would react if something happened to one of them. To think of how sorry for him all his co-workers would be.

But it's okay. I should have the same attitude that all unrepentant WS seem to have: hey, it made YOU happy, so it should make ME happy too, right? Shouldn't I be glad that you found something that added such joy and sunshine to your life? Shouldn't that make me happy, too?

Apparently so. That is exactly my husband's attitude. And I will be shouted down and have glass bowls thrown in my direction if I don't agree.

I'm so happy for you.

Hey Peeps,

Thanks for the posts here. The OM was not married but was involved in another A with another married woman at the same time as my WW, was having the A with him. Soooo...hopefully you can all understand that I wouldn't have any feelings either way about his demise. He's a compulsive home wrecker! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , here's my resolve: Let her go to the funeral and let it be done. That will be the ultimate closure I could expect I guess. I'll let it take it's course. Whomever questioned if I didn't love my wife must be crazy! Plan A is the ultimate sacrafice of love, enough said.

To Pacific P, I can honestly say I have absolutely no idea why you would have posted as the WS. Unless your the BS, you cannot possibly understand it, period. I pray that you never have to experience it either. (How's that for compassion?)

The rest of ya, thanks for the thread. As a side note, the day before the accident I told my wife in a MC appointment that I felt that both her and the OM would pay for what they had done, even if it wasn't in this life. (By the way, I didn't plan it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

take care, and WAT your situation is effd up!

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Psycho_B,

I missed your post as I was posting myself. Bottom line is this: couldn't have said it better to PP myself!

Rock on!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
<strong>The responses in this thread alone have convinced me that the HATE exhibited at this forum for PEOPLE WHO ARE PEOPLE AND MAKE MISTAKES--yes, HAVE AFFAIRS--is shameful to say the least, and I think this severe vengeance mentality has to be reexamined if we're going to jest at the expense of a dead person and put THAT little value on human life. It sickens me.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that "mistake" can shred the very fiber of the BS being, devastate them like they never thought possible, bring up emotions they never knew they were capable of, bring aonce strong person to the verge of a breakdown. Just as the WS and OP often have very little empathy for the BS, the BS often has very little empathy for the OP. Seems like a pretty even street.
Thank God the A is long over in our case, but if I found out tomorrow that the xOW died and my FWH went to the funeral he wouldn't have a home to come back to afterwards.
Want to hear about the heartwarming empathy that the kindly OW showed for me? She told me that when she found I that I was pregnant she "prayed every day that you'd have a miscarriage". And after my husband would no longer take his calls she left heartwarming messages on his voicemail like "I wish that {Fairydust} would get killed in a car accident" which progressed to "I wish that both of you were dead". She would have been dancing a jig on my grave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
... the initial development of admiration was in no way something I had control over. "Following" feelings and choosing to engage in an affair, on the other hand, ARE actions that requires deliberation and a selfish spirit. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pacific Princess - I have "admiration" for ALOT of people and find MANY people physically attractive. That does NOT mean that I DO NOT control myself and say 1) I am married; 2) I made a promise to my husband in front of God and all of our family and friends; and 3) As a mature adult, I may REALLY like someone, but I have enough self-control to know the limits of any relationship with that person. Simply because you might "admire" someone does not mean you let it go the next step. Also, "admiration" is one thing - allowing another person to meet EN's that your spouse should be meeting is absolutely, positively WRONG. When it gets to the point where a WS is allowing another person to meet EN's, that is where the selfishness comes in - your need to "feel good" overrides and obliterates your spouse and the vows you made to your spouse. Rather than allowing this to happen and let that "admiration" grow, you should be going back to your spouse and address why he/she is not meeting your EN's sufficiently. In MANY MANY MANY cases, it is purely a matter of selfish instant gratification that is the key factor. Please, do tell, are you and your BS in recovery? What is your BS' view regarding your "observation?" You sound to me like someone who is still trying to justify to yourself, your spouse and everyone else that your actions were justified. Get a grip.

With regard to the issue at hand - If my FWH's OW died, I would be sad that it happened and, if necessary, would be supportive of my FWH in anyway I saw possible. I think that is the "higher road" here.

Brit's Brat/BS-41
WH-43
DS-13 months
Status: One Day At A Time