"I'm so demanding and horrible."

..... another bullsh*t remark I need to point out to you.

Gadszooks ... I wish I were with you in person .... I could wrap you in my mothering arms and rock you like a little girl right now.

You never had proper mothering ... I can see that sooooo clearly.

(MY turn to say something pathetically dorky)

Well...you found the way to make me make the <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> face. No, I was never nurtured as a child. And the thought of someone wrapping their arms around me and trying to mother me actually tears me in half...on the one hand it's everything I ever needed (that inner child part)...on the other hand it's nothing I would recognize and therby feel extremely uncomfortable. I realized that during my counseling. The OM was constantly trying to get in and even though it felt like everything I wanted my defenses just kept pushing him out. Hubby was always safe because he never tried to get in. He's as closed off as I am in many ways.

Hope,
Have you read the book THE FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES?

I suspect you and your H have different languages, he's not speaking yours, which I'd guess from this thread is "gifts". I can't guess what his is...so I'll tell you what my H's is "service".

When he is loving, he does stuff, like caulk windows, wash the car. My language is "quality time". Caulking windows, or most "service" does not entail spending time with me, so it doesn't feel like love.

Except...now that I know his language, know my language, even when he's not speaking my language, but speaking his, I've learned to recognize his loving efforts. And, when I need "time", I get specific. "We need a date." Then I suggest a movie, or dinner out.

If you need gifts, I can see that would be a little more awkward to request. How about shopping together? If you point something out, will he say "go ahead"? Will that help meet your need?

Your last night, being sad because he didn't bring you anything...his taking off for most of the night...neither of you probably feel good about it.

It kind of made my hair stand on end, cuz a couple of our separations started with my H storming/escaping out the door...calling later to say he wasn't living with me anymore. So, I've instigated the kind of thing you did and have had it turn out the worst possible way, and have worked to learn how to speak languages, meet needs and have needs met.

Being sad and uncommunitive doesn't work.

It makes your H feel like a failure. True, he is, or at least might be, failing you. Sadness is a true emotion. But sad by itself is not proactive, it won't solve the problem. Telling him doesn't seem to spark him either, but that might be more of a resistant behavior in him?

If shopping together doesn't work...how about if you see something you love and ask him if you can buy it? Would that be a middle ground?

And, even if you hated what he did last night, which I know I would, I think if my H had done that, I would:
-go to him,
-tell him I love him,
-tell him he scared me,
-ask him how he would like for the 2 of you to solve this problem together in the future.

You don't want a repeat of this. I doubt very much that he deliberately wants you sad.

And if he says he doesn't know if he can meet your needs, don't freak (my H says this, too). Appeal to his natural male problem-solver. "what would help you remember to surprise me?"

Oh, and I missed the part where he walked out of the counseling office and asked you what the 2 of you should do.

Sweetie, just answer the man. Don't hole up and die...he's clueless, remaining clueless, but actually gets it together enough to ask, because he wants your input...and you feel despondent because he asks.

This just keep the circle of failure/disappointment spinning.

You could have said "diamonds, please." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Who knows what would have happened?

Or "the candle shop" if you really are a little more practical. Or lets go to the florest and I'll show you what I love.

I think he's teachable. Maybe? Worth another try?

Of course I'm the re-try queen with 7 reconciliations, so keep in mind another try tends to seem reasonable to me.

The counseling episode was 2 years ago...while we were seperated. I was just illustrating that nothing has really changed in that area and for whatever reason hubby really still doesn't get it as far as that's concerned.

Yes, we both read the 5 love languages. Hubby decided that my biggest need was recreational time so he started spending more time with me. I do appreciate that and we do go more places as a family...but I plan everything and make all the arrangements. He occasionally suggests something, which is nice, and he's enthusiastic when we do stuff as opposed to in the past.

I wasn't given much of an opportunity to communicate last night. I was trying to not make a big deal out of it and hubby was the one who brought it up. One of the things my counselor taught me was to let your feelings subside a little before reacting or saying something out of emotion. So that's what I was trying to do!!! I was just trying to relax after a really long day in a really long week. He made the decision to make a big deal out of this and leave...evidently in an attempt to fix the situation.

Anyway...I'm emotionally tired now and I still have tons of cleaning to do. So I'm going to try to drop the anger and just deal with the sadness. If hubby wants to communicate whenever he decides to grace me with his pressence again...I'll do my best to be understanding and open to what he says.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>I wasn't given much of an opportunity to communicate last night. I was trying to not make a big deal out of it and hubby was the one who brought it up. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could it be that you handled the situation differently than he was used to and that confused him? Kind of doing a 180 which caught him by surprise?

When he realized you were sad and decided the "answer" was to go out and get you something, you realized right away that wasn't what you wanted or needed. Instead of letting him leave, maybe you could have said "Honey, flowers would be nice and I know you're trying, but what I'd really like is for you to stay with me and hold me" or something equally applicable.
I can tell you as a man, we're dumb as rocks when it comes to this stuff. We honestly don't know what to do and subtlty doesn't work. We're programmed early on that if we feel sad or scared or vulnerable, we don't seek comfort, we do something to get our minds off the way we feel, working out, fixing something around the house, etc. Actually dealing with those feelings??? No,no,no! Men don't have those feelings. This last part is tongue in cheek, but there is some truth to it. He needs you to help him. His effort last night, though well intentioned, obviously missed the mark, and that's OK. Let him know that and let him know what you really needed. Maybe next time he'll be a little closer to the mark, and the time after that and......

Take care,
sad dad

Thanks SD. I know he meant well...he really did show incredible effort, albeit the wrong one, LOL!

I didn't realize it's not what I needed...I didn't even realize he was really going to go to the city. I wasn't making a big deal out of it, I was just planning on watching my movie. He shows up and puts his shoes on and leaves. I'm sitting there dumbfounded. It just didn't make much sense to me that he'd really drive that far to try to rectify the situation, yet not even acknowledge it with an apology before deciding that's what he needed to do?!?!

Anyway...with a bit more communication I think we might have figured more out...but he decided this was what would work and headed out to do it.

Cleaning the house is helping me to work out my frustration as well as filling a need for my H...so you can't beat that. I'd better get back to it...this house is a pit.

Communication lesson 101:

When someone pays you a compliment ... ("I think you are amazing. I really do!!!!." )....stop..... and actually listen ... pause, and take it in. Live with that compliment hovering in your nostrils for awhile, before you exhale.

You suffer compliments H4F .... enjoy them.

Pepper

Mother Pepper, it's spooky how well you know me even though you've never met me in person. How is that??!!!

Just cuz ....

YOU are amazing ... and I really really LIKE you........

By the way.....

I have a black T-shirt that says "YADDA YADDA YADDA" in bold letters across the chest.

Pepper

LOL, you WOULD pepper! If I remember correctly, someone said that came from Seinfeld? A friend I used to work with used to say it and it just struck me as funny...it's been with me ever since.

Well, hubby got home last night and it wasn't long before he came in and read what I'd written. You know, his first reaction was to TALK about it! WHOOPPEE!! THAT'S progress. Of course he defended his actions and himself and tried to lay it all on me again...all about how IF he would have done this or that or said this or that I would have said or thought or done such and such. I said...how do you know???

Unfortunatly I did get pretty ticked off and yelled at him...so I left the room to cool off. I realized that I was doing EXACTLY the wrong thing. He was actually talking to me...even if it was to make excuses and justify whatever...and me yelling was only going to shut him down. Thankfully it DIDN'T. He came out of the office and started to talk to me again and I tried to keep it together better.

Funny thing.... I told him I knew better than to yell and so that's why I walked out..to cool off. Well, he honed right in on that and started in on the "YEA, why can't you just have a conversation without yelling and getting mad??" Well, I told him it's reallly reallly easy for me to be romantic...second nature really. Thinking about, and pampering others is just not a problem at all. Ideas come by the droves even when I'm not trying to think of them. So why can't HE just be romantic? Probly for the same reason I just can't easily keep from getting angry. Romance isn't second nature to him and calmness isn't second nature to me...we've just got to learn to do better.

Anyway...I guess we atleast talked about it. I still don't think hubby gets the idea of romance or even simple dating AT ALL. He mentioned getting a screenname and getting some help. I think JD and SS might be able to explain it better...since you guys are GUYS and seem to "get it" a little better. H said he HAS been reading the books I bought on romance...and they say things like candy bars and going out to eat and watching a movie at home are romantic. Well, I suppose they are, but in a much smaller scale. I think those are everyday, every week kind of little things. I want a REAL date once in a while (it's been months)...and that to me doesn't mean a quickie trip to town to watch a movie and then get back cause H's mom has to get home to bed. He thinks driving to the city to go out is extravagant (but evidently driving there in the middle of the night to buy cactuses isn't???!!!) ugh...

So anyway, we're fine now and hopefully going to figure some of this out. His intentions were good...and his romantic idea was very cute...just badly timed.

Oh, and Pepper...just so you know...I love you (((SMOOCH))). You're wonderful!

h4f,

I'm glad the two of you talked and I glad your realized that what is second nature to you isn't for him, and vice versa. He IS trying, and that's more than alot of WS's get. Try to keep in mind that he probably doesn't know what to do in these situations, and when he tries something and falls on his face, he gets discouraged and his confidence takes a hit. But you've got let him know that's OK and encourage him to keep trying.

How about that "pepper"? She doesn't let you get away with anything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . It's good to have friends like that. Two steps forward, one step back.

sad dad

<small>[ November 24, 2002, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: sad dad ]</small>

H4F:

Sorry for not reading this whole thread, but you scared me and I don't like being scared! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Anyway, I like it that you talked. It's what the Dr (or maybe the Nurse, Pepper) woulda ordered!

I think your H and I must behave similarly (or at least I did be4 D-day), in that my W is so strong-willed and hot-tempered that I just ran away rather than deal with the wrath, and so I wasn't around 2 help with the hurt, either (and so *I* got majorly hurt in the process!!). Not fun. Don't wanna go there no damned more, either!

e.g.: (which stands for "egzample"): Sa2rday, ol' 2long's standing in a pool of sewage in the basement of the house we bought a couple months ago, frantically trying 2 find and fix a leak in the main sewage line. I pull a connection apart that's leaking, and have 2 hold buckets under it for the next half hour while I wait for the "flow" 2 subside. EWWW. Anyway, it finally does, so I run a snake (not mine!) through the line 2 try and clear the clog... ...no dice. So, I start 2 put the connection back 2gether, and my W asks me 2 run the snake down one of the vent pipes that's open and try 2 clear it from there. I try 2 explain that it won't work (it wouldna), but she gets angry and tries 2 get me 2 do it (I'm getting kind of tired of standing in wet hightops in 1" of sewage on the basement floor by this time), but I say that I'm not going 2. She leaves, calling me an @$$h01e, as she leaves. Well, I "responded" 2 that... I WANTED 2 say, "No, I'm not an a-hole, Rat Ahole Meat is THE prototype a-hole", but instead I said, in as genuine a tone I could muster "Thank you very much." Not a sarcastic tone, mind you, but a polite tone. It was hard, but it worked...

It 2k a while 2 work, like until the next morning, and the whole time I was thinking evil thoughts about RM and DV, and making piles of ultimatims and storming off in as dramatic a fashion as ol' 2long can imagine, but it did work. Next am, she said 2 me that she doesn't understand why she got so angry, or why she ever gets so angry about things like that. I made no excuses for her, but just said that I knew it would have done no good 2 get angry at her, so I didn't. ...then we had some most excellent SF! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But I was always afraid 2 arrange anything or even buy anything for special occasions, in fear of doing or getting the wrong thing... ...you see, I was afraid of not being able 2 live up 2 her expectations. Don't know if that's one of your H's fears, but it sure seems like a possibility.

Oh yeah, and one of the things I WAS successful with, before we were M'd, and for a while afterward, was buy her cacti! Then, a few years ago she said she doesn't really have an interest in them anymore, so one of the things I thought I could do "right" for her was gone. Along with a lot of others. But I'm trying 2 do things for her again. The best things are things that she either doesn't expect (nor do I, sometimes!), or things that NEED 2 be done (like the dishes), and that I do out of the blue. The rest of the time we're just 2 busy fixing our house and the "new" one and the guest house... ...2 rest on our laurels (whereever those are!) for very long!

Please be cheered up! We need ya!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi H4F,
This may sound corny but last week I was thinking about the anniversary trip troubles and wondering why you had never dealt with your feelings and I was about to post something to you about it, but I got busy with work and never did get to it, and now it doesn't have near the good effect it would have if I had done it before you started this thread, (perhaps I'm just like your Hubby. )
Whew !
Sorry, I needed to get that out.

I think you need to deal with the feelings in a more timely manner. You are holding things inside trying to "adjust your expectations" but I believe he is the one that needs adjusting. More later about that.

Maybe we could help with hubby too. If you were to tell 2long and I where you live and what brand of tractor he drives, perhaps 2long could bring a special laminated 2x4 and we could "speak" with him. I have a story about that.
In my youth I worked at a dairy milking cows. ( this is for real, don't laugh.)
Some of the cows would come into the barn by themselves, but some would stay against the back fence and we had to go out and get them every day. One of them was mean, and sometimes tried to run me over as I walked in pushing some cows to the barn. It wasn't fun to get knocked down because the floor......well, it wasn't very clean.( that's the nice way to explain it, you don't want the other way.) I mentioned it once to my dad at dinner and he told me what to do about it. He told me that you can talk to cows and they will listen to what you have to say, and they will actually do what you tell them to do. I was amazed because I didn't know this. He said the only thing was, you had to get their attention first, so they would be sure to listen.
( any one with weak stomachs, skip to the bottom )
He took me to the back yard and gave me a 2x4 about 2 ft long and told me to hold it under my coat when I went out to get the cows. "Pay close attention, and if she tries to run over you, turn, dodge, and hit her on the noise with the stick." So she did, and I did, and then I told her never to sneak up on me again and try to run over me. Know what, she never did again, so I guess dad was right.

Now the thing that worries me the most is that your H has been hit with the biggest baddest stick that a spouse could be hit with and he still won't listen. I admit I can't figure this one out on one level, but on another I can.

I am like him in many ways. See, I was 40 years old, and married 19 years before we started dating again, and I was 46 and 25 years before really "got" the flower thing. It seems easy now, and we are in love and having fun ( OK, we have bad days too, but mostly good.)

BUT WHY DID IT TAKE ME SO LONG.?
AND
HOW DID SHE EVER STAND IT THAT LONG?

I don't have the answers to those questions. I wish I did, but no.
Another one is "is there any way I could have gotten it sooner? "
I can't answer that one either.
It gives me great joy to find things now to make her happy, what was wrong before? I love shopping for flowers, and cards for her. I love dates, I love weekends away. What was wrong with me before?

There really are some answers now that I think about it. My older children can tend the youngest now. I don't have to worry about that any more. I have the money to go for a few days now, before I did not. My business can stand my absence now, before I did it all myself. He has more fears about something, than he does about you leaving again. "I am sure she learned once, I am sure she will never do it again." He is filtering everything through what he understands and knows, and he doesn't know about flowers, and dates, and he is afraid. Perhaps more afraid of doing it wrong than doing nothing.

Perhaps there are things in his mind like there were things in my mind? You would know this better than we would. You have gotten lots of good help, and you should continue to look at things from all angles, but he needs to step up and do his part now. If he was ever to get hit again like the first one, neither of you would get past it.
Years ago, I had a friend that was going shopping with his W. I said I was sorry for him, and he said, " What??? I am glad to go, I love being with her, any time, any place for anything."

How did he get it so well, and I did not? I have thought about it many times since. You know, there are some things that I can do lots better than he can, but I missed one that would have really strengthened my marriage. Perhaps lots of wives could take a clue from that too. ( I am not hinting, just thinking out loud as it were.)

I hope some of this helped in some way. Remember that all of us have faults, it just so happens that his is one thing that hurts you the most. I really hope he can turn it into a strength. Hope, don't give up yet, and please talk about it more, and more often.

SS

PS, I intended to post to justthewife on EN too, just for the record, but I never did get to her either.

<small>[ November 25, 2002, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

This describes how I got in2 my sitch, almost 2 a T! How did you know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

This is why it's so frustrating for me 2 see so many people, particularly men, go 2 plan B without finding out about THIS behavior, which is probably more prevalent than we'd ever hope 2 realize. And so it'll happen again... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

"In my youth I worked at a dairy milking cows."

I tried this once, but I was an udder failure!

2L ... your humor makes me cower. It also mooves me to tears.

Have a bovine day.

Yawl arnt Evn fny. My cow would give you the finger, but it doesn't have one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2long and SS, thanks so much for dropping in! 2long, hubby and I had a similiar sitch with the christmas lights last week, lol! I told hubby just to GET OFF THE ROOF and let me do it! It's just easier than arguing about it sometimes, hee hee. I do well not yelling and throwing things like I did when I was younger and dumber....but when I get extremely frustrated...well...the anger comes out and I yell. I working on it!! WORK IN PROGRESS!!

Still Seeking...I was hoping you'd pop by. It wasn't my intention to hold things in so long I'd pop again...actually I WOULDN'T have but hubby saw I was bummed and just went overkill on his "solution"...which turned out to make the situation worse from my viewpoint. Then he tried to turn it around when we did talk about it to be me and me and me. I wouldn't have been satisfied with this and I want too much of that. I've spent a lot of time over the last couple of years owning up to my issues...but I wasn't going to take all the blame for this one. I didn't make the big deal out of it...I did gently remind him something would be nice over a month ago (after 3 months of "waiting") and I was prepared to continue to be patient a while longer. I'd just had a long week, a super long day, and some other things were going through my head that added with an obvious missed opportunity bummed me out.

I will say in hubbies defense, over the past few years he's gotten a much better attitude overall. He used to do the turn your nose up at "women" shopping type thing...and he'd complain when we'd go somewhere that was a little different. He doesn't now at all. We go lots of places as a family and do different things, and he doesn't mind going shopping and spending time with me at all. We've become very close and the best of friends. He just doesn't get what a woman wants in the way of romance. The little every day stuff he finally gets...like remembering to get me a candy bar when he gets himself one AND actually knowing what I like!! But the thought of going overboard for no particular reason, or ESPECIALLY when he's in trouble!!!!...he just can't even fathom why you'd do that?? I also think he's somewhat confused on how much how often type stuff. He thinks I expect a dozen roses every week and a date to the big city...and all I want is SOMETHING a couple of times a month (like a card...doing something sweet...saying something nice...EASY stuff...gosh, flowers, how hard is that?!?!) and maybe a date once a month??? According to the Harleys that's the friggin bare minimum! I dunno...I don't want to have to draw up blueprints...but somethings got to change somehow. 4 months without even a few hours to ourself is pretty sad.

Wednesday we're planning on playing hookey from work and going xmas shopping together. That should be fun, although it's also somewhat of a mission...but we'll make a day of it...a LONG OVERDUE one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Oh, and in case you decide to drive out...he drives a John Deere (pray tell what else IS THERE???) and ours is the house with the screwed up christmas lights, LOL!!!

So, are you willing to wait as long as my wife waited?

Hope,
I do understand how communication can take a sudden difficult turn. Here's what happened to me last night.

H was tired, had a dark look to his eyes, uncommunicating, he'd been on the road most of the day for a meeting midstate (3hours there, 3 back). I asked who else had gone. "Marsha ______".

Bad feeling. I sat & thought, hours later, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I asked, "Who's Marsha?" He started laughing "MarSHALL" I did my best Gilda Radner/Emily Lettilla "Oh, Marshall, that's different. Nevermind." and laughed too. He told me I'm nuts and he loves me. And he laughed some more.

So, my imagination had run off and joined the circus for nothing. His bad mood was just being out of sorts.

One thing we do when we've had a bad day, is promise to start tomorrow fresh. It's helped many, many times to know I've got the grace of a "do-over".