Crikey Lisa, I go away for the weekend and you play havoc on MB's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> What's a guy to do?

Seriously though I am very sorry that you have had this experience when you have in truth been trying so hard to make things right.

Firsthand I can acknowledge the pain and panic of them not coming home and the worry and uncertainty that that causes. It's a major emotional drain in itself. I am very glad that your H did not attempt suicide or hurt himself. Believe me you really don't want to be dealing with that.

However it is also sad that he has taken this route, no doubt the drink played a major part of it but it's also unacceptable. In the cold light of day (and this may sound harsh) you have also become a BS.

In so doing you have already written many of the emotions that we BS feel, yet until you have experienced them it is almost impossible to relate to them. Why am I saying all this? Well it's because clearly if you are to have a recovered M then as I said on my reply to the other thread last Friday you need MC.

I think you need MC now more than ever to help you regardless of whether you stay together. It's two hurting people who are still hurting. You need MC to help you focus, and help you move forward. Otherwise he will be stuck, you will continue to anger and it will just spin out of control until someone goes, or worse. Remember my WW and I never got to MC and now we are going thru divorce.

MC will show H how he is contributing to the pain now of the M, rather than looking to M mk2 for the future. He is stuck in the cycle, that's clear. I don't personally put to much weight behind the sub-concious revenge talk, what does it gain thinking along those lines but more pain?

Ask yourself to about this idea of living apart. From my viewpoint I know it killed us off. Think long and hard that that is the best option. I can tell you that I do not believe it is.

When my world fell apart again in Sept I got straight on the phone to Relate and they got me in straight away. I suggest you do the same. Or do a call to Steve H here, that helped no end also. If H doesn't want to go then fine. Go for yourself so that you are getting the help to make informed decisions and also to take much of the heat out of it.

You cannot do this on your own, you need help to save it, and H needs help to see that he is contributing toward it breaking further <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Sorry L., my thoughts are with you, Neil.

Neil thank you for your words and thoughts - as ever you make some fairly key points.

Yes, in a sense I have now become the BS - weird concept. But I do believe H in what he says. But what was strange, is the things that both of us could see more clearly from the other side. What I must not do though is make what happened into a crisis, rather than being just a drama (remember that advert, "We won't make a crisis out of a drama"). Although I want to, I can't focus on this action - it would be too easy and not what all this is about.

I hoped that H and I might again take some time to settle until the new year. H came home earlier today (a trip had been cancelled, so he came home to drop the car off before going to work). He told me that he has already made arrangements to see a flat tomorrow night, and if everything is OK a view to moving 7th December. We didn't have much time to talk, but I said it made me really sad to think of him going, and considering we would only be spending about 5 days together before Christmas, surely he should wait. He feels that if he gets upset again in Germany, he doesn't want to come back home and start taking it out on me.

So, what to do now? Unfortunately, this isn't just my decision. Also, maybe I am just being selfish saying wait till the new year - I don't want to be alone, especially with my mum moving.

Neil, a specific question, do you think I should stop IC if I can get into Relate? It would probably take some time anyway. I think perhaps a telephone session with Steve H wouldn't be a bad thing. H has rescheduled his IC for this Thursday - I will ask that he holds any decision until he speaks to her, and puts forward what I have said.

I don't want H to move out so soon, but am not sure that I want H to stay! Confused or what?

Thanks again.

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>Yes, in a sense I have now become the BS - weird concept.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think something like an EONS (emotional One Night Stand) would be enough to turn your feelings upside down. When I found out my W was with OM2 although "nothing happened" it was still like a knife through the chest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Although I want to, I can't focus on this action - it would be too easy and not what all this is about.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No wasn't suggesting that. But you can store away how you felt in the back of your mind as a learning aide for how your H feels. Call it a tool for your "Recovery Kit bag" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>He told me that he has already made arrangements to see a flat tomorrow night, and if everything is OK a view to moving 7th December.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You could always ask him to stay and work on it together. Xmas though has a major way of bringing out the emotion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Neil, a specific question, do you think I should stop IC if I can get into Relate?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Depends. I was going to IC for help in dealing with a Child Abuse Survivor, Suicide, Cutting etc. So for me it could coexist with Relate and indeed did for a short period of around 4 weeks. However it was VERY tiring. I then realised that Relate was far more beneficial for me and I dropped IC. Relate has continued to be of value. Knowing your situation here I would not expect them (IC or Relate) to suggest you continue both. Personally I think Relate would be better for you but thats my £0.02.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I think perhaps a telephone session with Steve H wouldn't be a bad thing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He was superb with me, sadly told me what would happen and what I could do (which in my case was very little) and yes it came to pass. I would have used him also for a recovery. Saying that Relate has been very good too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[qb]I don't want H to move out so soon, but am not sure that I want H to stay! Confused or what?[/qub]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really. Never make major decisions during a time of crisis or an empty stomach <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> so don't... tell him to stay and see how things go...

Neil.

Neil - thanks again.

I guess, I wasn't the one wanting to make the decision on the empty stomach! It threw me really when H came home to say that he was looking at a flat tomorrow. I worry that if I ask him to stay, I'm not sure that I truly want that because a)I don't trust him not to keep hurting me and b)the eternal issue of whether or not we have a future because of everything else <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I think there is no reason why I shouldn't contact Relate - it may take some time before we could get a session anyway. Also, I am seeing my IC tonight and I may speak to her about the dynamics of it. I do think that personally I have been getting somewhere with her, we have been working well together around the issues of my horror at what I have done and why I did it.

Neil, you know, "boot, foot and other" springs to mind. I think it was half and half - angry, so very angry with him for playing this stupid game, plus thinking of him being intimate with (emotionally involved or not) someone else was just horrible. As I say though, I believe him - he feels that he actually used her because he feels nothing for her. So again, I could tell him that she equally used him for some reason, and when H told me that OM just used me, well I used OM too. Again, I saw that flicker of recognition with him, as something else sunk into place.

Neil, I know how bad you are feeling today, so thank you thank you for taking the time to help me out. I appreciate it.

Lisa

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> LisainLondon! You're getting what seems good advice from others who must know your story. Since I don't, I will only add this. I don't mean to hurt you, but I doubt seriously any man spends the night in another womans home and bed and hasn't cheated! My only concern is you should insist on test for VD! There is just way too much disease out there today and most cheaters don't use protection. Especially if drinking, they've lost all sense of rationale! God be with you and I pray the MC starts working for you both. LouLou

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>
H gets absolutely pissed out of his brain and goes back to his single female colleague's apartment. I do believe him that a)other than kissing, nothing further happened
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If he was as drunk as you say, I would believe him too. As someone once wrote, "alchohol giveth the desire, but taketh away the ability."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, it doesn't stop my anger with him for putting me through sheer hell, and that I don't know what her motives might be. A single woman actively taking an interest in someone whom she knows to be married - well, say no more.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa, I would never have wished this on you, but it is interesting to hear your thinking now that the shoe is on the other foot. You now have a small insight to all the things your H feels/thinks.

Michael

Lisa, I am sorry to hear of the turmoil that you have been going through. What a nerve wracking experience.

The conditions in your marriage created an environment that was conducive to having an A. Not absolving you- you did have other choices- but if you and your H had a close connection, you wouldn't have chose that "solution".

Both of you are responsible for the conditions of your marriage prior to the A.

I think post recovery it helps if the BS plan A's the WS initially, to recreate the connection and draw the WS back into the M. Very hard to do for the BS. Then to get to recovery, the WS needs to plan A the BS. So the BS feels like there is a reason that they took the WS back.

I know I have said this before, but neither your H nor you have done this. Does your H know anything about the MB concepts? (BTW, I understand and agree that you might not want to invite him onto the forum).

It's funny but the love bank concept does work. Two days ago I had a commitment to cook dinner for a charity fundraiser- for 25 people. The day of, I became deathly ill with a stomach bug, one of those gutwrenching ones. I was cooking, then throwing up- it was a nightmare. My H stepped into the breach and made a bunch of the dishes, even though it was my project that I took on that he wasn't particularly in favor of. When he helped me, I felt a surge of powerful love for him. For the first time in a long time, I felt he was my hero. He made a giant deposit. So, think about some way to make some deposits with your H.

Remember an affair is one of the worst lovebusters ever.

The episode with your H could be valuable. He can not take refuge in sanctimony- he has demonstrated that he is capable of the same thoughtless behavior. First- you are not a BS "in a sense", Lisa. You are a BS. Whether your H had sex with her or not- the episode was a betrayal of the understanding of your marriage. We expect to follow certain rules. Such as calling home to explain where we are. Such as not going home with members of the opposite sex, kissing them and sharing their bed for the night.

Have you tried to do a Plan A, Lisa? My advice is to do one now, no matter how obnoxious H is. Yes, it is good that you set some boundaries on telling him he can't use you as an emotional punching bag. I wouldn't address the issue of him moving out. You sound confused about your feelings anyway and talking to your H will only hurt him. Don't discuss his looking for a flat- just say you'll miss him if he moves out. and change the subject.

I think you should just concentrate on having fun with him. Go see a movie or listen to music- something that you might not usually do. Give him a back rub and some passionate SF. Act "as if". Try to recapture something of what drew you together.

I think in marriage there's alot of what I call "spin". You can focus on what's missing and see the glass half empty or you can see the glass half full. For example, your H's episode with the OW. You are spinning it positive- "well it's not as bad as what I did, and H didn't have sex with her." There's a poster on this forum named IcePrincess whose H had a similar "episode". She has been devastated by the betrayal, and has gone through a very hard time with it. So alot of it is in perception, and reaction.

I think it is very hard for your H to hear that you and OM had real feelings for each other. Proving that to him does justify the affair, but what does it do to your H and your M? How would you feel if your H had told you that he had feelings for that OW?

Lisa, have you thought about at least doing some kind of an emotional needs/lovebusters surveys with your H? Call it an exercise to get to know him better and understand what makes him happy. Have you explained to him what the 10 ENs are, the 5 LB's. If he won't read a book, tell him verbally. Ask him "what do you think of this?"

oops- got to go- kid pickup- thinking of you and wishing the best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by espoir:
<strong>I think it is very hard for your H to hear that you and OM had real feelings for each other. Proving that to him does justify the affair, .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">espoir,
please tell me I took what you said out of context, because nothing justifies an affair, I don't care if the feelings were real or not.

Michael

LadyLou/Michael/Espoir

I really appreciate all of your words and support.

Ladylou - I hear what you are saying, but I believe him. He wouldn't have come home, he would not have been able to face me at all. As I said in a previous post, I don't want to make a crisis out of a drama. Thank you for your concern though.

Michael - I know. As I said before "boot, foot and other" springs to mind. Not the nicest experience in my life, but you know, I was more angry with him for not calling me to let me know he was OK then what he actually did. I truly don't think he has any attachment to her, nor does he want any.

Espoir- Firstly sorry to hear you were sick, and hope you are feeling better now. Since the episode that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts where I treated H very shabbily when we were out, I have been Plan A'ing as best I can. Prior to that (about a month after he first returned home), H had just been desperate towards me (whilst I was just saying, I'm not sure what our future might hold) and since then H really has been doing nothing - except emotionally withdrawing from me.

H read SAA, thought about it for a couple of days then dismissed it. I have asked him on many occasions if he would look at the ENQ and he won't. Therefore, pretty much I have to guess his top 5 ENs. It has been very hard for me to continue even being nice to H when he has been so emotionally abusive for such a long period of time and so frequently.

"He can not take refuge in sanctimony- he has demonstrated that he is capable of the same thoughtless behavior. " But he is. He has pretty much cut off all conversations about this, because he says there is nothing in it, it is not like my A, and he doesn't want to get hung up on that, which is not the main issue and if he does, it WILL send him over the edge. I felt that I could barely ask him if he had even seen her yesterday, and when I finally plucked up the courage and said why didn't you tell me, he said you didn't ask!!!!! I told him, that he had made it pretty clear the topic was pretty much a non starter now. Apparently he send her an e-mail saying his behaviour was completely out of character, that he is married and it was wrong, and that he would appreciate her discretion about not becoming part of the office gossip. He also said that professionally, he hoped they would be able to continue to liaise as they had. She sent a mail back saying fine, and if you want to talk, you know where I am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Of yeah, heard that one before.

At least he addressed it, but he sees it as nothing, (although he does understand how hurt I am by his behaviour), but he has dismissed it, and it is all about my A.

Sorry, off on a tangent. He is also adamant after last night that he is going to move if this flat is any good. I told him that I thought he should think about it and I wasn't sure if it was a good idea because a)his mental wellbeing and adding to the stress of it by going to Germany and moving b)financially it didn't make good sense with him spending money when he won't be there and c)Christmas and the holidays are just round the corner. He said, mentally he is fine, he will probably have to go to Germany in the new year some more anyway and Christmas is just a block for emotions. Why should he worry about Christmas when I was having an A when it was our anniversary and we were on holiday? The date he is "planning" to move will also coincide with my mother's move which is another major issue for me at the moment. He also said it was my idea in the first place (true, I said we couldn't carry on living as we were, and perhaps we needed to separate), so why was I now changing my mind. I told him it was said when I was excpetionally sad and angry with him, and that fundamentally I still believe something has to change if we are to have a future. I think perhaps I am just being sentimental about Christmas. I also think that H just doesn't care very much for me at the moment, and all he is thinking about is himself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Espoir, given all that, the fact that he goes back to Germany on Friday and the way he is still hurting me, I feel there is little more that I can do other than I have been. H also said last night that MC was not on the cards in the near future as he needed IC to sort himself out. I think this is going to be incredibly hard, if he won't entertain MC and is adamant about moving out.

Please keep the help coming - I really need it.

Lisa

Hello Lisa, I am so sorry to read that your H is looking at a flat. Hang in there-it seems to make no sense for him to do that now,it hasn't happened til it's happened!.

After D day 1,I saw both a Relate counsellor and an IC. My WH refused to come. Although I went to both for a while I found it quite heavy going. I also found that some of the same ground was covered by both counselors which was confusing actually as they had different approaches. I also found that the Relate counsellor tried to put fwd my WH's point of view-or what she imagined was that-as he wasn't there. That was confusing also! I stopped Relate and went to the IC for a while.

In my work I usually recommend to people that they don't see two counsellors unless as in Neil's case the issues are completely separate. Also It is obviously very emotive so don't schedule the appointments too close together- I found one appt a week was almost too much,but that is JMHO.

Is Wootton Courteney in the Quantocks? It rings a bell but I can't place it. Isn't it always the case that stressful events happen together?(-your Mother's move and H's moving out.) Hang in there Lisa be strong.

Regards,
Deluded

Hi Deluded

Thanks for your thoughts. I did speak to my IC last night, and it's not something she recommends either over a long term basis, but equally said it probably wouldn't help me just to stop seeing her. I think I might find out what the situation with Relate is, plan to continue with IC until the new year, and then hopefully by then, I'll be able to get into Relate.

I know, hopefully this flat will be horrible, and then he's off to Germany on Friday, so I don't think he'd rush into anything else. He just seems so adamant to cut me off, even though I told him that although I'd been angry, I didn't want him to move out. I know that if he does want to go, I must do as Espoir says and just say that it makes me sad. Although we didn't argue last night, the conversation did become quite heated.

I think it is the Quantocks, it's actually in Dartmoor National Park or is it Exmoor?!?!?! I've never been there. It's near Porlock if that's any good!

Thanks again Deluded, I'll keep everyone posted - tonight seems to be hanging over me heavily....

Lisa

good luck Lisa,
in any case, stay true to your feelings, every bit helps. if he gets the flat, tell him your sad (but refrain from LBing). if he doesnt, tell him you're glad. in any case, tell him you're still wanting to try.
cheers
N

Nick thanks.

Simple words, but true. It's really cutting me up the thought of him going but also a sense of maybe some relief, but you're right - I can't change him, or force him, but I can tell him simply, it makes me sad and I still want us to try, or glad you're staying and I still want us to try.

I felt soooo angry with him today, about everything. There was a whole bunch of clean clothes hanging around. He always puts his away but leaves mine, and I thought I'll just leave his, don't care. But I didn't - I put them all away, tidied all his things up and hope he'll notice. Not much, but the way I feel, it was huge!!

I'll keep you posted.

Lisa

<small>[ November 26, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Hi Lisa,
Even if H does go,in a flat of his own he will be confronted with the reality of your situation,whereas in Germany it is easy to imagine things are ongoing and you are at home waiting for him. So keep doing what you always do,it would be a LB now to stop things like putting his clothes away(even though he never does the same for you!)
Lisa one thing you said on another thread struck me....did you ever fancy him? when do you think it stopped and why? Sexual fulfilment is about 1. the feelings and 2. the mechanics-these can be improved surely,the same way you can learn to anything better? Don't give up on it yet.

Your Mother is moving to Exmoor National Park-lovely up there on the North Somerset coast, though I don't know it very well. Fairly easy drive until you get off the M5 and then a bit slow. Dartmoor is down near us!

Keep posting Lisa, and good luck. I once got some good advice from a friend-try to have the best life you can, no matter what. (The same friend also says,when shopping," see it,like it,buy two!) She's my guru!

Deluded

Lisa,
I haven't had much computer time in days. Just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you, over there in London. Sorry for the upset developments you've been through lately. I'm glad your H is okay.

Please try and take some moments out for yourself, and relax and enjoy things.

H_P

Lisa,
Any news?
Nick

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>It's really cutting me up the thought of him going but also a sense of maybe some relief</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well Lisa I do not believe in splitting and leaving you know that, it puts far too much additinal strain on an already unhappy situation.

However saying that if your H is resolute in doing this perhaps you can do a number fo things in preparation to handle it. These might be as Nick said telling him it makes you feel sad, asking if he has a plan for you both in doing this, thinking about what you are going to do whilst he is away, what steps can you do to Plan A with him gone, reading up on a distance Plan A which is harder than him being there and doing one. A call into Steve H might also give you a Plan to hit the ground running whilst you wait for Relate. I suppose I would try to be proactive about it rather than wait for it to happen? Does that make sense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>He always puts his away but leaves mine, and I thought I'll just leave his, don't care. But I didn't - I put them all away, tidied all his things up and hope he'll notice.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its things like this you SHOULD keep doing. This is silly behaviour and of no benefit to either of you, and you did the best thing, you rose above it. Best Wishes Neil.

Just a quick note as I have been out all day and don't have much time.

H did appreciate my efforts last night which is good. H went to see the flat, and told them he will take 24 hours before making his mind up. Unfortunately it is a nice flat and he thinks it will suit him well. Very close to here...... H and I talked again, but it seemed that we were going round in circles and not going far. We managed to finish the conversation and actually go out for dinner. This morning I left him a voice message I said

"I know that you are wanting to move out to find some peace for yourself, and repair the damage that has been created. I can truly understand this need to look out for you, but, it makes me very sad to feel that you have given up on us. Whatever you decide to do, I will try my hardest to support you and be positive"

I've not heard anyting since, he's due home soon.

Will keep you posted.

Lisa

excellent note!

He's taking the flat. Has paid a holding deposit, with a view to signing contracts and moving on 7th December.

He got my message, but it made no difference. He says this is not even so much about the A, but about how he feels, desperate to feel some peace, get some space, not continue being involved in his abusive behaviour. We talked again, but didn't get anywhere far. I said that if we went to MC it would take the pressure off both of us to get through these difficult situations. He doesn't think it will help at all.

Neil, I took your advice and said that if he is adamant he is going, I want him to think about how we are still involved and in contact - will he be wearing his wedding ring, do we speak every day, meet once a week, what? I think it concerns me most that he views this separation as about not being married, i.e. although he is adamant it is not about him leading a psuedo single life (he said he will probably spend a lot of time by himself etc., go out occassionally), he also said that with time, he may want to start seeing other people. I said, is that OK for me then when I go out on Friday if I meet someone, or is it OK to call OM now? Of course I wouldn't, but I wanted to put it into context. I feel this is the slippery downward slope.

But you know, I don't even know if I can be "nice" and Plan A about this. I don't think I can. He's hurting me, he's giving up on us, right before my mum's move and Christmas. His XW in a candid moment when we were actually talking about the A, said to me "Your know him, so selfish, always does what he wants to do" She's right, he went to Germany anyway, he's moving out anyway. I'm hurt and angry. Couldn't bear to say goodnight last night or goodbye this morning. This isn't about Lisa having a childish fit of pique, this is about me trying to hold myself together. If he'd done this within the first month of being home, I don't think I'd care, but I do, and I have told him.

But, I still go back to the same problems that we have, that he won't address, that are so difficult for me. Am I just angry because he's the one who's made the final decision, that he's letting me down at a difficult time anyway, and that I feel that I've failed?

Lisa