I was just thinking about how outrageous it is that someone (OP) who is involved in breaking up a child's home then has the right to spend time with that same child. When someone so obviously does not have the child's best interest at heart, why should they ever be allowed to spend time with that child? Just imagine how much re-thinking of D's there might be if the WS knew that the kids could not be around the OP?

We all know that the end of the nuclear family is not a good thing. Why doesn't anyone think about the fact that obviously these are some very selfish people who are giving no thought to what's best for the children? I would think that if you are able to prove that the OP was involved in breaking up the family, they ought not be able to just step in and try to become another parent to the kids. They ought not be around those children at all.

Has anyone ever heard of a case where an OP was not allowed to be around the children of the M? Shouldn't BS's be able to push for that in cases of separation or divorce?

MT

I agree, however, politicians state they don't have the right to dictate morality.

My opinion is that because they don't want to dictacte morality, means more children needing some sort of welfare assistance, so the taxpayers have to pick up the burden. (I know, there are probably no studies done on this). Most women who I know who are divorced, require some sort of assistance from the county.

Hi MT

I agree with you totally - these are exact words I have said myself. I know that there are no laws to back me up on this but I have said to my H many times that the woman who has helped to destroy my childrens' lives will NEVER have ANYTHING to do with my children. In my situation the OW knew my husband was married and had children, and knew on several occasions he was trying to work on our marriage and said she was OK with that and that she would still see him. I can't believe that there are so many people in this world that could do something like this. It one thing to knowingly do it to the other spouse, but an etirely different thing to do it to children and help to destroy their lives and security. You are right there should be some kind of law to protect children from these people - we should be able to choose who has an influence in our childrens lives.

You recently answered one of my posts and I would just like to thank you so much for your support. I am very new here and your words meant a lot.

crazy4you

Doubt that this is as easy today as it was "way back when"...but when I separated from my first H in 1978, I did have a court order that he could not bring our children around his OW, until we were divorced. So what happened...he just took them around other women he was dating. Don't know how his OW felt about that, maybe she didn't know. (xH married her the day after our divorce was final. No, their marriage didn't last either...but sadly it ended up involving two more abandoned children which he had with her.)

And while I agree that during a separation children should not be exposed to ANY OP, rather they were involved in the breakdown of the marriage or not...after the divorce is a done deed, it's best for the relationship of each parent and child/children if the parents accept (at least on the surface) whatever mate their ex-spouse chooses, even if an affair partner. jmho

Okay, light up the blowtorches, I'm ready for the flames.

I was the OW, and I married the man. You can read the long version somewhere in the old posts of Recovery (What Goes Around, Comes Around.) Yes, he has cheated on me, but we are working through it, and his confessed sexual addiction. It's a hard road to travel, but I don't expect or ask for sympathy from anyone. I have been allowed to post here and have shared my story and the healing processes I've been through over the past several years. I am not a monster, and most MB'rs have made me feel welcome. I do have a perspective that isn't the norm, but I also feel I can see things from two sides--sometimes and advantage and sometimes not.

Anyway....I just wanted to say that I cherish the relationship that I have with my stepdaughter. She is an exceptional young lady, and I don't know what I'd do without her in my life. Yes, I share her with the woman that I hurt so badly, but this incredible young woman has accepted me into her life as her Father's spouse, and she has also knows of the guilt with which I still deal and my attempts to repair, along with my husband, any damage. She is very astute for her age, and she does not have her head in the sand.

I'm not trying to make any escuses for what happened years ago, but I don't think that every situation warrants keeping the children away from the new relationship. I would hope that I have become a better person than I was years ago. It has taken a long time, but I feel that I have done so.

Thanks for letting my add my thoughts. I do value and appreciate everyone's insight here, and I've learned a lot.

my move

Yes, I understand your feelings. I do have it in my separation agreement that OW can't be around my kids for ANYTHING for one yr after the sep. and no overnights from one yr until the divorce (no overnights with opposite sex, non relatives-not just OW).
It protects the kids from becoming emotionally attached if she is not long term.
Ironically, after 10 mths, I am thinking about amending it because it also applies to me and I'm ready to start dating.
As for the last post from an OW, I understand that what was done was a long time ago, but I don't want to hear about your wonderful relationship with your stepdaughter. You didn't earn it.
Can't Sleep

my move - As your step daughter matures and enters into her own relationships, will your hard learned lessons be shared with her? Will you help her understand the value of honesty, integrity, and loyalty using yourself as an example? Will you help her understand that adultery is terribly wrong and hurtful?

If you can answer "yes" to these questions, I have a followup question for you.

my move,

You can only "share" something or someone that is shared willingly - every special moment of this girl's life, every memory that is created, that is created with you present rather than her real family is a moment and a memory that you have STOLEN from her mother. Not only have you stolen it from her real family, you have tarnished her memories of her childhood, a childhood that should have occurred in the bosom of an INTACT family.

I do not see how it is possible to demonstrate remorse when you are continuing the relationship that destroyed her family to begin with. Remorse can only be real if you stop doing whatever it was that was wrong in the first place. A remorseful bank robber would not continue to spend the money stolen from the bank, all the while saying how wrong he was for stealing it.

my move,

This statement is backwards...
Yes, I share her with the woman that I hurt so badly,

YOU do not share her with anyone. Her MOTHER shares her with you. She was not yours to begin with...how can YOU share her?

As Always, JMHO
committed

Sorry but i have to disagree to some of this. Yes, the children shouldn't be around the OP right away, that just shakes up their world a little bit more. But to say they shouldn't be around the children at all and to blame them for their morals that they may put upon your children... NO THAT IS NOT RIGHT in my opinion. The WS is the adult/parent, they should be looking after the welfare of the children they created and if they chose to expose them to the OP right away, it is them, the WS that you need to be holding anger and judgement upon not the OP! Don't get me wrong, if the OP is a junky, alcoholic or an abusive person that is another story, but to say they shouldn't be around the children because they are the one the WS chose to be with, is misplaced anger, the anger should be at the WS. Like I said, JMO!

<small>[ November 25, 2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: trying2_4give ]</small>

Both the WS and the OP are committing immoral acts, and it is completely justified to be angry at both of them. Neither one is a good role model for the children. However, the children typically loved the WS, and, since real love is unconditional, they will typically continue to love the WS and consequently have a right to spend time with him.

A, drugs, alcohol or any other vile habit(s) that are detrimental to young minds and hearts. Does it really matter? All can damamge their most vulnerable years. Look at some of our own posters here? Still showing scars of their parent's A, drugs, alcohol, etc.

No OP should be in contact with the children until after the D. The Ws can't do the D, no reason for the children to deal with the WS' stupidity.

JMHO,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crazy4you:
<strong> It one thing to knowingly do it to the other spouse, but an etirely different thing to do it to children and help to destroy their lives and security. You are right there should be some kind of law to protect children from these people - we should be able to choose who has an influence in our childrens lives.

crazy4you</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Crazy4You - I'm glad to hear from you - I hope you are doing okay. Thanks for your kind words. It just seems to me that when one person from outside obviously does not care what happens to a child's life and security that that would not be a very good person to have around that child. If it were to come down to the fact that one parent does not want the child around the OP, and the other parent obviously does, then there should be some outside impartial party to help decide what is in the best interest of the child. I can't imagine that I would want the OP around the kids after the D is final, either. As the OP is a major factor in the demise of the child's security and all the child trusts to be true, I find it hard to understand how OP would ever want what's best for my child. I was glad to see that JustAWifey was able to get someone to realize how important this is, but again, it was only until the D was final. Somehow I don't feel that that's enough.

MT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by just a wifey 2002:
<strong>Doubt that this is as easy today as it was "way back when"...but when I separated from my first H in 1978, I did have a court order that he could not bring our children around his OW, until we were divorced.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Just a wifey - I think it's great that you were at least able to accomplish that much. I think that that is the LEAST (and I do mean LEAST) that the WS could do in a situation like this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
And while I agree that during a separation children should not be exposed to ANY OP, rather they were involved in the breakdown of the marriage or not...after the divorce is a done deed, it's best for the relationship of each parent and child/children if the parents accept (at least on the surface) whatever mate their ex-spouse chooses, even if an affair partner. jmho</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can understand your thoughts on this, but I know that in my heart, no one could ever convince me that the OP truly cared for my child, or wanted what's best for him. I know that it's better if the parents get along peacefully and all that, but I cannot get past the fact that the OP possibly did this child the greatest harm ever to be done to him. The WS should have come to their senses and it might have helped him/her to know that his kids would not be able to visit OP and WS.

I do agree with you that in a situation where the kids already spend time with OP after a D, it is best to try to get along, so to speak. I'm talking about trying to get the situation changed ahead of time. I think that someone ought to be speaking up for these kids first, and the laws ought to be changed. Even if they were to look at each situation on a case by case basis, if the OP had no problem playing a part in the destruction of a child's home, I don't see how they should have the right to be with that child.

I would love to see someone take a stand for the nuclear family and make some of these WS REALLY think about what they are doing.

JMHO -

MT

I knew when I posted that there would be offense taken--I cannot blame anyone for that. I have been the object of resentment for a few years now; I've taken that medicine, and I will continue to do so--why? Because you're right--I deserve it.

WAT: To answer your question; although not all the circumstances of our relationship have been shared with SD, she does know some of the history, and the affair is not a secret to her. But, although she is a bright, surprisingly mature pre-teen, we haven't shared all the dynamics with her. Her Father has explained to her the breakdown of the marriage, which by the way, had progressed to the point of severity before he and I even met. (I know that does not excuse our actions; I'm not even trying to excuse the affair. There is no excuse.) He has also told her what we did was terribly wrong, and yes, I have reiterated that to her. As she gets older, I would hope that I can let her know how hurtful and painful adultery is. I can't honestly teel you how or when that conversation or conversations would take place, but I am hoping to be able to answer your question honestly and with a "yes." Does that work? If so, ask me your follow-up question.

committedandlovingit: You're right, of course--I don't share this child with her Mother; I didn't "love" her first, but I DO love her now, and if there's sharing here, it's my SD sharing herself with me, willingly.

Nellie1: You tell me I don't demonstrate remorse, but you don't know my whole story. I am trying to get the link in my signature line that will allow all to read my intial post--just haven't mastered it yet; I'm not a techie! Please read it before you judge me completely, and if you still think me coniving and manipulative, I have no problem with that. It took a long time for me to get to the point of healing where I now am, and please don't think for one moment that it was achieved without a lot of pain. I'm not like the insensitive OW you may have seen on Dr. Phil. I have told his ex how very sorry I am, but of course, she thought my apology self-serving and insincere. Who could blame her? If I could go back in time and change the transition of our history, I would. We'd have never begun a relationship until or unless spouses were no longer involved. His marriage was spiraling downhill without the complication of me in the equation. But still, I had no right; he had no right; WE had no right. Is it your suggestion that now, despite the years we've been married; despite any healing that's taken place, that our only course of action is to end our marriage because we had no right to it in the first place? Would that grant me absolution, or would sack cloth and ashes be required?

The simple truth here is that I cannot--as much as I wish I could, I cannot undo what my husband and I have done. I just cannot right that wrong. I'm sorry. But I won't apologize for loving my SD, or for having a great relationship with her. But you know what? Down the road, she may grow resentful and her feelings towards me may change. I will deal with that if and when it happens.

I don't mean to hurt any BS here; please remember that I am now one myself. If you all feel that I've gotten what I deserved, believe me--I've been paid back in spades.

Thanks,
my move

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is it your suggestion that now, despite the years we've been married; despite any healing that's taken place, that our only course of action is to end our marriage because we had no right to it in the first place?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, exactly.

BTW, who, exactly, has done the "healing?" You may have "healed" but the injured parties here were the members of the original family. You may have achieved your marriage as it is now after a lot of pain, but what has the BS achieved from all her pain? The opportunity to watch you live with her husband?

And by my husband and I divorcing, he's going to remarry the ex and everything is going to be hunky dory? Come in, this is the real world.

Please take the time to read my story, if you'd like. I've now got the link attached to my signature line.

I believe that you are looking at this situation from a strictly moral point of view. I can't blame you. It is an immoral situation. But there were a lot more factors involved here than just an out and out affair. Although my husband and I take the responsibility for affair itself, it was a situation where everyone involved was a factor in how the affair played out. Yes, even the BS. She created part of the dynamics herself. Also, I was actually out of the picture completely when their marriage ended. They had every opportunity to work things out and rebuild the marriage. If you read my story, you will see that his ex did not want the marriage once I was completely gone from his life, although she had been telling him for months that she did. After everything was said and done, she did not want a relationship with him at all. This is typical of her push/pull behavior throughout the marriage (and you can quote my husband chapter and verse on that one--he's sitting right behind me.) He could not row that boat with just one oar.

His ex is not "watching" me live with her husband. He ceased to be "her husband" after the divorce. His ex has moved on and is living her own life. She rarely has contact with us. I am sure she harbors resentment--there is nothing I can do about that. I've done all I can to try to become a changed person and resolve these issues in my own mind. There is not much more I can do...sorry.

One of the reasons that I have such a good relationship with my SD is that she, her Father and I do things together as a family. (Yes, despite what you may think, we consider ourselves a family.) In his previous marriage, it was my husband and his daughter only that did "family" things. His ex didn't want to participate. For the first time, my SD actually sees how a relationship should work when both parents are involved with the child. I'm sorry if that is harsh--I am not just saying that this was the case to make his ex look bad. It actually WAS the case. I cannot tell you the number of times that my SD has been over here on a weekend, has spoken to her Mom on the phone and hung up in tears because her Mom said something cruel to her. And it's not because Mom is still grieving for her lost marriage and taking it out on SD. It is simply part of her personality. I may be no angel, but neither is she--don't make her one.

You think that I deserve nothing except some kind of payback here. That once I committed adultery, I gave up all right to any happiness in my life, regardless of any good that I may do from this point on, or despite that fact that both my husband and I are totally changed people? Despite the fact that we now have a marriage (which is still a marriage, regardless of the history of our relationship.)

No one knows all the ins and outs of anyone's life, so no one can assume what kind of person another human being is. I would never assume anything about you. Please don't do the same--you've never been in my shoes, and you do not know all facts of what actually happened.

I'm not going to vent further here. I am simply going to respectfully disagree with you and call a truce. I have no battle with you.

Take care,
my move

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe that you are looking at this situation from a strictly moral point of view.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is how one should look at situations.

No marriage that begins as an affair can ever be valid. No, I don't think that you deserve happiness from a relationship that is immoral. It matters not what you do with the rest of your life - you could convince Osama Bin Laden to repent, and although we would all be very grateful, it would not make your current relationship moral.

It is quite possible that his first wife and he won't get back together. That is not the point. What is important is that as long as you are married, you are continuing to twist the knife in her heart, whether or not she wants him back.

Perhaps once she discovered that you were not the only OW she did not want to deal with a serial cheater, for which one could hardly blame her.

I think it was counterproductive for you to imply that you are in some ways more of a family or a better mother than the girl's real mother. Aside from the fact that the real mother would likely disagree, it comes off as defensive and petty.

And yes, I did find your link to your story and read it. It sounds very typical, including the part where you say that although it doesn't excuse the affair, their marriage was going down the tubes anyway. If you really didn't hope it was true and was a mitigating circumstance, you would not have mentioned it.

my move - my original followup question has been answered. It regarded whether or not you communicated remorse to your H's XW.

But now I have another.

When you do come to the point where you and your H attempt to teach your SD that infidelity is wrong, that personal accountability, honesty, and integrity are severely damaged by practicing infidelity, and when you display your selves as examples of what NOT to do, how will you square the hypocrisy that she will detect via "do as I say, not as I do"?

I ask because I need to understand how my XW may attempt the same thing so I can asnswer my son's inevitable questions.

About your situation, somewhere out there is the world's worst mother. Perhaps she is the mother of your SD and in that case, I guess it's possible that SD is better off with you in many ways.

But if you asked my XW - and every other WS on this forum - if their marriages were already down the tubes when the affair started, the answer would ALWAYS be "yes."

It has to be!

Otherwise, why have an affair?

This rationalization has to occur before a spouse chucks the family! Along with this decision is the second rationalization that what's not working cannot be fixed. Better to end it than mend it.

Now maybe, your H's former marriage was an exception. I accept that and will not try to argue otherwise. But I encourage you to continue participating in this forum and accept that in the majority of cases, the existing marriage CAN and SHOULD be salvaged - for the good of all involved. And in every case, attampts to save the family are...

worthatry

Goodness, a lot of judgemental conclusions present here. While I agree (to a point) with nellies position that marriages which began as affairs have issues, I don't think it is because of an inferior moral position. Likewise I think marriage to an alcoholic, a druggie, a narcissist, a workaholic, and many other behaviours (both addictive and personality disorders) gaurantees greater likelihood of failure as well.

Similarly there are many marriages where folks initial meeting was while married to someone else, who subsequently marry and do just fine, morality notwithstanding. In fact one could argue from the limited information here that nellie is a risky marital prospect, due to her intractable position on moraly judgeing others behaviours. Generally intractable people of all kinds, especially moralists, are very difficult people to have relationships with, tend to be a mite judgemental. (no offense intended nellie, just a reasonable conclusion from your posts on this thread).

On the other hand I don't think it is helpful for my move (or anyone in similar circumstances, that being a remarriage) to characterize a previous spouse in judgemental terms either. His previous spouse is whatever she is, their marriage is whatever it was, and it may (probably was by the facts presented) be it needed to end. All that matters now is how the new marriage functions, and if it was entered with a poor understanding of who each person is, then it could very well fail...but not because of some notion of morality, but because people did not do the homework required to make a good choice.

As for parenting, biology makes you someones mother, it DOES NOT make you their best parent (mom) by a long shot....there are thousands of childen being raised by highly dysfunctional parents, and would be a blessing if they could be removed from them. In this case, if the facts given are correct, the step-daughters behaviour would seem to indicate who is providing more nurturing parenting.

....When you do come to the point where you and your H attempt to teach your SD that infidelity is wrong, that personal accountability, honesty, and integrity are severely damaged by practicing infidelity, and when you display your selves as examples of what NOT to do, how will you square the hypocrisy that she will detect via "do as I say, not as I do"?

LA.... This (as stated) is a querstion with an agenda, the word hypocrisy does not apply, and implies there is something wrong with the parents...that may or may not be, but has nothing to do with how they got married. People grow and learn (well hopefully anyways) all their lives, and advocating not doing something you may have done in the past is hardly hypocrisy...it is growth, and honesty. How about people who smoked pot at one time, or committed a petty crime, or speed, or smoke cigarettes, or told a lie, (do I need to go on?). On the basis that hypocrisy means you must be perfect or cannot give advice, then everyone is a hypocrit I suspect.

Infidelity is not a "practice" (well ok, maybe it is for some, and that would be a different issue, but that does not seem to be the case here), it is also a term used to describe normal behaviour (forming relationships) done under socially (and religiously for some) inappropriate circumstances...ie one had voluntarily pledged fidelity to someone. Since it is normal behaviour at a primal level, the problem is consequences. ALL behaviour carries with it consequences, good and bad. Infidelity is no different.

There are many stories here that clearly identify infidelity as the causative factor in a marital restoration, that is clearly a good consequence. It can also be the causative factor in ending a hopeless co-dependentcy... The complaint is usually there was a better way to do these things...well sure, hindsite is 20/20. The fact is, we all have psychological issues that drive us, and fear of change is a big one. Couple that with poor skills in dealing with interpersonal relationships, then infidelity is inevitable...and as the author of the MB books states, everyone is capable of infidelity. If we were all sufficiently skilled I suspect many would not be married to who they are now (would never have chosen them), therefore stands to reason infidelity would be less, much less....likewise when became clear the marriage was not working, people would face that, and either fix it or divorce, before starting another relationship...but that is not the reality we live in...is it?

What one teaches your kids is first what infidelity is, how it occurs, how to recognize ones vulnerability, and why in general it is not a good coping strategy. They can use your own experience to provide substance to the "teaching". Then you teach them skills in understanding themselves, assessing others marital potential (as a person, and specifically with you), and how to act on it. Lastly you teach them that marriage must work, it must be something you want, that if it becomes only duty, sacrifice, it will fail, and better to leave it before you find yourself drawn to someone else. Spending your emotional resources trying not to be unfaithful, leading to an unhealthy stressful life.

I do agree with the comment """personal accountability, honesty, and integrity are severely damaged by practicing infidelity"""" this is one of the consequences of infidelity, and requires healing, better to avoid this alltogether.

....I ask because I need to understand how my XW may attempt the same thing so I can asnswer my son's inevitable questions.

LA....Hopefully she will tell your son her method of ending the marriage was not a good choice...and will train him (along with you) in how to make good relationship choices, and how to deal with relationships that are not working (fix them, or end them, but don't avoid the conflict). The worst thing one can do is blame the infidelity on the BS, or some other circumstance. It is a choice, feelings are feelings, but how you act on them is a choice. Maybe she will be able to articulate her actual feelings/actions as well (when appropriate) for your son, it may be helpful, but does require a very high degree of honesty at the risk of appearing bad in her son's eyes...how about you, are you honest about your shortcomings? Or is it I am like this, but your mother was like THAT (and a subtle, or not so subtle, implication you are morally superior).

....But if you asked my XW - and every other WS on this forum - if their marriages were already down the tubes when the affair started, the answer would ALWAYS be "yes."

It has to be!

Otherwise, why have an affair?

LA...that makes sense, at least as a perception...I guess the devil is in the details.

....This rationalization has to occur before a spouse chucks the family! Along with this decision is the second rationalization that what's not working cannot be fixed. Better to end it than mend it.

LA...Much more complicated than that...there is always the issue of serial cheaters who do not want to chuck anything, they just need infidelity as well. Not to mention that it is the spouse that is chucked not the kids, although the end up in the mess, often used by one or both parents to get at the other.