Well, all of you are right again. What have I been lacking? Consistency.

I haven't begged, pleaded, talked about MB, talked about love, nothing...in one month.

His venom on Friday was followed by my calmness and acceptance. I went out on Friday evening but did leave him a message apologizing for the change in plans and letting him know that if he needed to go to hockey, no problem...followed by his message saying it was OK.

Went out with the girls. Had some fun. They, of course, think H needs to see that I don't idolize him anymore. In any case, it was a fun evening. Came home. D was asleep. They had a good time at the hockey game. I left some notes for D and one for H indicating that if he needed to call me, my date wouldn't mind.

H took the message seriously. "You didn't really have a date, did you?"

Then made a pass at me. Then asked me if I was really okay with it now. "No, really...you're okay with all of it?"

Made some comments about houses he wanted to buy. "Do you want me to stay in an apartment for the rest of my life?" Much different tone than the phone conversation...weird.

Then...I looked at him and held his face. "I know I shouldn't be worried but you look really pale and tired. Are you okay?" H replied, "I haven't been sleeping."

Tears slipped down my face but just a few. It was a moment but it was one of the most sincere I've had in a long time.

The next day, he went to an outlet mall we used to go to together quite often. Called me several times re:gifts for some kids on our list...just like old times.

Then, he came and dropped off the gifts at house because they're from us. I said nothing.

I took D to the Festival of Lights opening festival in Niagara Falls. Didn't ask H to come. Kind of like a 180. D and I went to Kelsey's for dinner and sat at the bar. She loved it. It was great.

Sunday...H asks whether he can take our savings and if I can draw a small mortgage on our house...I reacted calmly and indicated that I think we should have an agreement in place before anything is done. He said, "Why? So the new house can be in your name too..."

He's lost it. Don't worry...I'm not doing anything without legally splitting...but of course he's saying I'm being unreasonable for wanting a lawyer to get involved.

Oh MY... sounds like my crazy mess- doesn't want the D... but wants to live apart..'

My ws is acting like we can live like this forever...

UGH.

You are doing great... I am going to implement some 180 stuff too.., they have to see they will lose us, and we won't wait forever, will we?

Have you thought about how long you can stand this?

I just don't know what to do, as putting a time limit on the marriage and the living apart seems to trouble me, I want my marriage and am willing to go to FAR lengths.. as you are T, to save it...

But how can we, in our actions, stop this? I guess letting them, by their actions miss out on what they want... this side of the cake?

Don't know what to do...

What's your plan? MOre 180 and consistency. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hugs, HONEY

YOU ROCK!!!!

Terrified....
Sounds great...

My suggestion make yourself slightly unavailable at all this weekend...

Make him feel a slight sting that is equal to his actions..I mean in some ways he's really cake eating...regardless of whether OW is or isn't in the picture...

He lives away from you two...yet is constantly there....and I know that is good for your daughter and I am not suggesting using her as a pawn...but I am suggesting ...that God, he is the one begining to sound needy...not you...(very cool)

You did great this weekend... maybe just be even busier this one weekend...make him stew it out alone....OK realizing that if you do this he may get mad and attack you verbally again..BUT the way it's going...just seems like a game...and heattacks with jabs anyways....
Or let him watch daughter and create that illusion you out somewhere...with someone thats none of his business...

OK don't make any decisions with out others input...LOR??? etc...I'm not sure if what i'm suggesting is good..just thinking it out loud...and looking pretty stupid talking to the monitor....

But you did great...and just babble back to his babble....

Thanksgiving here in the states this week...wanna come for turkey...?? Cause you sure have a lot experience dealing with a turkey!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Tell Mr. Mannilow I said HI...
ARK

I agree with Ark, what you are doing certainly doesn't seem to be making your life worse, and maybe a little more pleasantness coming from H in his exchanges.

You don't automatically agree with everything he suggests, which is good, because some of it, especially the finances seem like it could bite you.

Keep things nice around your daughter, her well-being and yours is your priority. There's nothing wrong with being cordial to your H. He may have your best interests in mind, he may not, it's impossible for me to determine, and probably even difficult for you.

<small>[ November 26, 2002, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</small>

Hello everyone and thank-you for keeping up with my crazy world.

Honey, More 180's and consistency is exactly where I am headed. Funny thing is that the more I keep my emotions in contol and do things on my own, the less I expect from my H. And quite possibly, the less I want from him. I've never been a DEPENDANT personality BUT as a result of his rejection, I did become VERY needy.

He actually used the phrase "your husband" in a sentence and I nearly fell off my chair. I didn't let him think I was surprised BUT I was clearly mystified.

Ark, (It's MaNilow with ONE N!!)LOL!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> YOU ROCK!!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You think??? If only you could see me...I'm 5'2", 98lbs...hardly intimidating but I'm becoming a tough cookie in spirit. Thanks for helping me to get it back!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or let him watch daughter and create that illusion you out somewhere...with someone thats none of his business...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I have the strength and the courage, I will try very hard to create the illusion.

I miss the man, Ark. Deep-rooted faith in his love...

Lor, I saw the email address. You can delete it from your post. I've sent you an email.

Love to all of you

Dear Terri,

Good to see you gaining strength. Your size is not important. Us little ones can kick them in the shins or where the sun don't shine a lot faster than others - LOL!!! But that is not your objective....... rather you can utilize your tools and show yourself to be the bigger/better person that will make you glow and grow into someone he could only wish to be (at least for now).

I read your comments and notice that you still have strong feelings for him. I understand but remember who those feelings are for. The loving H not the hateful man he has become.

IMHO, this is the time where you not only move forward with yourself and start widening the gap (so you can heal and he can see the folly of his ways) but also the time to start pushing the A to go farther. Why? Because if the A was so great and been going on for so long, you'd think this ditzy OW would be getting real tired of waiting. OWs don't like to be kept in the closet forever (ok maybe a few but not most). They like to 'flaunt' their prize and show off to the world but it will all come crashing down on them eventually.

In my case, I told the WS that there was something I wanted to do for him..... said it as sweet as pie.... he asked 'what is it?' Hm.... got his attention, then I said to push he and the OWs faces together so they could be together and if they both had braces they could stay in a locked lipped position for the rest of their lives...... so that even doing simple things like going to work, going to the bathroom, eating, etc. would be .......just unbearable. Then I said, now isn't that what you just want to do? Lock lips with PBR? Hm....... well not me so please get out their and just smash your heads together....... just get far away from me so I won't have to see the blood.....

Boy that painted an awful pix for him when he saw the OW..... not sure how much of that he shared with her but you know, it still gave him a visual.....

Ok, you may not be able to do that much but at least you now have an idea!?!??!?! LOL!!!

take care,
L.

Orchid, Nice hearing from you. I congratulate you wholeheartedly on reaching the two-year mark with your marriage in recovery. That is an incredible feat on this board.

I don't aspire to the unreachable as I used to...but I greatly admire those that do because it's certainly one of the most difficult struggles of one's life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I read your comments and notice that you still have strong feelings for him. I understand but remember who those feelings are for. The loving H not the hateful man he has become. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The glimpses of who he was sometimes peek through his hateful veneer...he loved to buy the perfect gifts for everyone and loved the kids that we bought for over the years (we have 13 kids on our Christmas list), his "let's organize the closets together" request last week which he always used to do, his "you know me, I can't remember the movie I watched yesterday" response to when we were talking about some of the details of the Movie "Face Off".

There are those moments O. Although few and far between...and believe me, I now walk away from the hateful guy more and more often.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is the time where you not only move forward with yourself and start widening the gap </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear you and I'm trying ever so hard to move in that direction. It's the only way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because if the A was so great and been going on for so long, you'd think this ditzy OW </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My sentiments exactly...and you know what? I realize now how wrong it was of me to want to call her all the time. I care less and less and focus less and less... I kind of accept my powerlessness in that relationship if there is such a word.

And if the A was so perfect, I'd be divorced. I really believe that now. Not that I won't be soon enough (I accept that possibility) but it's certainly not the immediate occurrence that I believed it would be...

One thing I have to share...I asked God many times about this and whether I should wait...well, I'm watching D dance at my mother's and my mother shuts off the CD, the radio is playing the song, "You can't hurry love" by Phil Collins (is this one okay, Ark?)...one of the first songs H and I danced to 20 years ago when we first met. I haven't heard it in SO long...

It made me remember...and it also stunned me because I had asked God just an hour before...perhaps that was his answer.

BTW Orchid, I really LOVE the visual you've painted for me...it's wicked!

Cheers!

First of all I didn't mean say Hi to Barry Manilow....I meant the other guy Barrry Mannilow...(three r's, two n's...that's who I meant!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Hmmm Phil Collins... (two LL's right? )...well i think he's just ducky....so jam away..

Terrified we all know you still love him deeply and no one is suggesting seperation/divorce....

But people sure do want to protect you...right or wrong...but not in the sense of drop him and move on...BUT in the sense that you yourself acknowledge some things about him that even when together...he was a pretty controling guy...I'm saying this not to disparage you but to point out that I am hopeful that you even in reconciliation with him would reconize behaviors and patterns that are no longer acceptable to you....and model good behaviors and responses that clearly take you out of the role of engaging in these same old behaviors again....like you are doing

Don't sell yourself short at the hopes of getting him back...

He's interested in you..(several passes)..he's noted that you have changed....(has said so)...
He is going to jab at you again...that's all he knows how to do..the more you defuse his attacks without responding...the more you force him to change his tatics...

I think it is phenomonal that you are not interested in the OW>...huge step that free's a huge burden from you...good for YOU...!!!!

So small steps that exclude him the tiniest bit...what are the risks...
1. He gets mad...been there...done that
2. He gets mad and involves mommy and daddy..."she won't let me do what I want" ...been there done that..
3. He accuses you of being the root of all evil...been there done that....
4. He proceeds legally...HASN'T done that...but what a huge thing...And he makes a huge statement doing that...and he has avoided that all along...

I think part of his plan was to be so crappy to you that you would finally file yourself...and he would be exonerated from causing the break up...

I think he is realizing you will not do that...and now doesn't know what to do...the thought of proceeding with anything hugely financial is a huge mistake..and he knows it...and knows you wouldn't...he's posturing a lot on that...so batten down the hatches for those attacks....

And most importantly I think he is a proud proud man...who still has processed very little of this in relativeness to his role in this marriage/affair...that he lives day after day trying to convince himself that he had/has no responsibility in it...BUT that he knows in his heart that is not true...to use another artist..he is Jimmy Buffet in margeruitaville who in the last stanza...."Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...but I know...it's my own dam fault".... OK I swear enough with the song stuff..

I think that his pride/ego may be a greater enemy than the OW....and that even while distancing as much as you can tolerate..you send small messages about believing in him...and messages about the capacity to forgive....in tiny tiny doses....it can surely back fire on you...but even when he retaliates...it's still noted somewhere in his brain that you believe in "him"....

Your husbands greatest enemy, whom he wrestles with the most is himself...

ARK

Orchid & Ark are giving good advice.

"Can't hurry love".

Pretty good message. I love Phil & his Genesis crew.

One of my favorite song is "Open Arms" by Creed. Our anniversary was about 3 weeks after our last reconciliation and we went all out, dinner, sight-seeing, dancing. The band started singing "Open Arms" and I just belted it out. I think back and my brain was willing for the try again, my heart was still achy and not-ready, but if my arms were open...that was the start I needed.

I'm surprised you H called himself "your husband". Y'mean "that's not all over"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

His actions are bringing him into your house. If he really wanted distance and estrangement, he would never have made a fuss about having the visitation drop-off at his moms. He would have been GLAD you came up with such a sensible plan that let him off the hook of seeing you.

His actions and words aren't in agreement at this point...and actions are the ones to believe.

Stay consistant!

(I KNEW this would work for you!!!!)

KEEP ON!!