Gibby,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The way this has been described to me is that this person holds down a good job (a career), does not have trouble with the law, may not be the perfect parent but does pretty good in helping to raise the kids, and as a spouse...this person has moments of clarity that show love, respect, and compassion to thier mate. In a nutshell, this is a functioning drunk.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This description fits anything from a cocaine addict to someone on anti-depressants. To use the term "functional" is simply a way to excuse the addiction and minimize it's effect on those around them.

btw, Honey's WS doesn't fit that description at all. He is just the opposite which would mean that he is "dysfunctional", right? He is what he is. An alcoholic. His alcoholism is a major hurdle for their marriage to clear and she can't do it alone. He has to jump with her. He has to admit his addiction and commit to getting help.

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

p.s. slightly edited

<small>[ November 26, 2002, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

ba109 said:

"This description fits anything from a cocaine addict to someone on anti-depressants. To use the term "functional" is simply a way to excuse the addiction and minimize it's effect on those around them.

btw, Honey's WS doesn't fit that description at all. He is what he is. An alcoholic. His alcoholism is a major hurdle for their marriage to clear and she can't do it alone. He has to jump with her. He has to admit his addiction and commit to getting help.

tagging off"

I sgree with everything you've said here with one exception. To use the word functional is not an excuse in my opinion. When you hear stories from other alcoholics and what some of them have been through and done the picture becomes a little clearer. At least that is what I have experienced. Honey is right, alcoholism is a progressive disease. The more I drink and the longer I do it, the worse I become. And since I'm an alcoholic, if I take that first drink, my cravings for more will be stronger than I can probably control. The solution is not to take that first drink...

Back to the 'functional alcoholic'. In my opinion, this is a universal description for a stage or degree of addiction. Some pass right by this stage and live under a bridge. Some hit this stage and maintiain an existance of addiction but with pieces of life that are considered 'normal' in our society. Therefore they are percieved to be functioning in the society. Does that mean I am any less an alcoholic than the guy under the bridge? Nope. It means that my bottom, my low point that initiates change, is different than this other person.

Just because I don't know the Police by first name, just because I have always provided for my family whether drinking or not, just because I showed love for my family does not mean I have any less of a problem than the person on skid row.

ba109 - I can understand your point, but since alcoholism is a progressive disease, that inherently means there are stages to that disease. Thus the use of the word 'functional'.

Gib

<small>[ November 26, 2002, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Gibby1 ]</small>

I think that one may only be considered a "functioning" alcoholic if they can truly perform lifes daily functions WITHOUT alcohol in their life.

Admit to being addicted.

Commit to getting help.

Function without it.

Then one could possibly be considered a functional vs dysfunctional alcoholic. Am I right here on this concept or am I off base?

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ November 26, 2002, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

CSue,

Fortunately I am not an alcoholic...recovering or otherwise, nor am I familiar with AlAnon and its concepts (again fortunate).

I only know that my children are at risk.

Their father was an alcoholic...ALL his siblings are afflicted with it... both his biological parents suffered and died from alcoholism...and my own father at one time had a drinking problem. The man that adopted their father when his biological parents gave all the children away was also an alcoholic.

Not only are my children at risk genetically but they were at risk enviornmentally. Was that acceptable to me? Not on your life! It had to stop.

They are now 17 and 19 have yet to drink. Had I stayed while they were young it would almost be a given that they would have found it acceptable and be doing it also. I am glad that I did what was best for them and for me.

I have walked a bit of that walk.

Always,
committed

Hugs Honey -

I don't think I've ever posted to any of your posts - but have always kept reading to see how you are doing.

Although I am not married anymore - I do have a few words of wisdom to pass on for what it's worth.

Some of the smartest words that were ever said to me were "you have to come apart to ever come back together." I believe this entirely. Plan A for you. Because when you do come back together it will (and needs to) be different than it was before.

I focused so much on my XH that I got a bit lost and forgot about me. Treat yourself to something nice - you deserve it. Know that no matter what - you and your children will be fine on your own. I'm not suggesting divorce at all - I wish my XH would have showed some sign of wanting to work through our stuff. For me, it wasn't until I realized that no matter what - I'M going to be OKAY - that I really felt OKAY and even good some days.

Some of the best advice I got here at MB was to take the focus off of my XH and put it on me. It doesn't mean you don't love him or care about him at all. Show him that you're fine without him.

I grew up in an alcoholic home and had a past relationship with an alcoholic - so I do feel your pain. No matter what though - you're going to be okay.

Hugs,
Llama

ba109,

FYI - the use of the word "functional" or "functioning" to describe an alcoholic is, actually, a clinical term used in the medical/mental health community describe a type of alcoholic or stage of alcoholism. Are you a recovering alcoholic or have you ever or do you now deal with an alcoholic on a daily basis. Those of us who have or do clearly understand what these terms mean.

Regards,

Brit's Brat/BS-41
FWH-43
DS-13 months old
Status: One Day At A Time: Celebrating FWH's 63rd day of sobriety!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Brit's,

Congrats!! On your H's sobriety!! One more saved; what a blessing!

This discussion has caused me to pull out some of my beloved old books! Here's the problem - AA books are old, so what I quote from it is probably updated because my edition is from 1984. What I was hoping to find and couldn't was the definition of the term "functional alcoholic".

But in the chapter titled "Understanding Alcholism - The Illness" - It talks about the characteristics and progression of the illness. The progression of the illness part is what I think applies-although the term "functioning alcoholic" isn't used. The 5 stages of progression refer to the alcolhics ability to function.

Anyone else out there have more current AA/Alanon info that defines the term? Brit, I know your stuff is more current...would you look?

Gib, would you look in your AA stuff? My stuff is all Alanon stuff!

Thanks, CSue

Committed,

It appears as though I have offended you. It was not my intention.

You have alot at stake with how alcoholism has affected your family and yes, even you. Blessings, CSue

candloving it,

I am glad your kids are out of that environ with the active drinking involved, but the disease of the affects of alcohlism are still there.

If you care sometimes try a few alanon meetings, you might be suprised , it could be helpful.

Hugs, H

Brit,

No, I am not an alcoholic (recovering or otherwise) but I have been exposed to loved ones that were and are. I have seen and experienced first hand the effects that alcohol has on them and those around them, including myself.

CSue,

Thanks for digging out the old books. The fact that the definition was not there could mean that it is not a clinical/medical term but moreso a widely misused term among the alcoholic community that I personally find inappropriate. Perhaps an updated reference can offer us more information.

The only time an alcoholic is "functional" is when they are sober (and I don't mean hungover). Any time that they are under the influence they are "dysfunctional."

It is not my intent to condemn Honey's WS for his addiction. I am simply calling him what he is...dysfunctional, due to the influence of alcohol.

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ November 26, 2002, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

CSue,

Oops....I did not mean to give the impression that I was offended. I was not offended I was just stating that I have been exposed to alcoholics and it was so unpleasant that I chose to remove myself and my children. I have only walked a small path...I have nowhere near the heartache that many people have had. Again, because I chose to remove myself.

Honey,
Thank you for the suggestion of AlAnon, but I am not quite sure that I would benefit. For one, all the people in my life that were alcoholics have now passed away...my 1st husband included. My father passed away in 1990 but had not had a drink since 1968 and my children's GPa has been sober since my husband (his son) was accidently killed. It took that to sober him up. Number 2, I think my way of dealing with the situation (totally removing myself) goes against the Al Anon concept . Its for people that choose to stay and that's not me. Thank you though.

Again, I was not offended and I do not mean to thread hijack.

Always,
committed

CSue -

I glanced thru my Big Book last night - couldn't find a reference to 'functional or functioning'.

ba109 -

The apparent lack of reference to this in some AA material is not surprising. AA is not about the clinical diagnosos of alcoholism. AA is all about finding your higher power, working the steps to better yourself, and using the fellowship to keep your sobriety.

ba109, I understand how alcoholism could have touched your life and why you are sensitive to the term 'functional'. People with a drinking problem who are in denial often abuse the word and make it sound like thier situation is not a problem.

Honey - sorry if we hijacked your thread. You are getting stronger and something will happen soon. Call it a feeing I have............. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Gib

Thanks GIB,

I am actively working the 12 steps with a sponsor now, halelujah! I had put off getting a sponsor due to a somewhat negative experience with one about 7+ yrs ago.

I am doing very well, fearful about what ws will think about my trying to get child support... or more- as h claims he gives me all he can, and I have more money and he can barely survive. True.

But, Ws is wrecking havoc on me and the kids by not being responsible.

If I lose him for thinking he should pay to provide for his kids, oh well. I am starting to think he is lost. Does that make me stronger?

Quite worried about what it will mean when he gets mad about that... but why should he get off scott free? I want to protect the kids.

The way he is living is way unacceptable, I would not put up with it when he was at home... but somehow the guilt I have for my part in things, and my plan a attempts... and my queen of lbing behavior have driven me not to draw thick walls, or thick boundaries... I am starting to draw little ones... I do fear they will mean he won't make the grade...

However, the man I married did. Who he is now, is not.

I am stronger Gib, and I often think... What is a girl like me doing messing with this cra+? I mean seriously if I just met him I would not be interested in a marriage, much less a friendship with this man. It is my ties to him and my commitment to him and who he HAS been that keeps me trying.

It is SO HARD.. to let go. I am getting better daily.

Do they really start to feel their consequences better when we completely let go of them?

I hope.

Hugs and thanks to Gibby and all of you, happy T Day, have a thankful one.

Honey

Gibby
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To use the word functional is not an excuse in my opinion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> People with a drinking problem who are in denial often abuse the word and make it sound like thier situation is not a problem. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Ya gotta make up your mind here. An alcoholic is dysfunctional both by definition and practice. To refer to one as functional is inappropriate and unfitting. If the alcoholic community is using this as accepted terminology then they need to rethink it. (IMHO)

Honey, I apologize for your thread going astray. This subject struck a nerve with me that I felt I needed to address.

I do wish you the best in recovering your marriage. Consistency in your approach and WS admitting to his issues may be the keys. Continued Good Luck.

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

p.s. btw, The (D the bum) comment a while back was simply to (([censored])) you over the head with my whiffle bat. Others use a 2x4 I believe. Alan Arthur has receive a few (([censored])) too. I apologize if it was too harsh.

<small>[ November 27, 2002, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

Good for you Honey! You are sounding stronger. Keep it up.

I got this in an email...thought you might like it.

Today's thought is:
One day, my son brought a gerbil home to live with us. We put it in a cage. Some time later, the gerbil escaped. For the next six months, the animal ran frightened and wild through the house. So did we – chasing it.

“There it is. Get it!” we’d scream, each time someone spotted the gerbil. I, or my son, would throw down whatever we were working on, race across the house, and lunge at the animal hoping to catch it.

I worried about it, even when we didn’t see it. “This isn’t right,” I’d think. “I can’t have a gerbil running loose in the house. We’ve got to catch it. We’ve got to do something.”

A small animal, the size of a mouse had the entire household in a tizzy.

One day, while sitting in the living room, I watched the animal scurry across the hallway. In a frenzy, I started to lunge at it, as I usually did, then I stopped myself.

No, I said. I’m all done. If that animal wants to live in the nooks and crannies of this house, I’m going to let it. I’m done worrying about it. I’m done chasing it. It’s an irregular circumstance, but that’s just the way it’s going to have to be.

I let the gerbil run past without reacting. I felt slightly uncomfortable with my new reaction - not reacting – but I stuck to it anyway.

I got more comfortable with my new reaction – not reacting. Before long, I became downright peaceful with the situation. I had stopped fighting the gerbil. One after-noon, only weeks after I started practicing my new attitude, the gerbil ran by me, as it had so many times, and I barely glanced at it. The animal stopped in its tracks, turned around, and looked at me. I started to lunge at it. It started to run away. I relaxed.

“Fine,” I said. “Do what you want.” And I meant it.

One hour later, the gerbil came and stood by me, and waited. I gently picked it up and placed it in its cage, where it has lived happily ever since. The moral of the story? Don’t lunge at the gerbil. He’s already frightened, and chasing him just scares him more and makes us crazy.

Detachment works.

Today, I will be comfortable with my new reaction – not reacting. I will feel at peace.

<small>[ November 27, 2002, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Susan,

What a GREAT story! Thank you for sharing it; there are "gifts" for all of us if we're willing to see them. Blessings, CSue

Susan, Thank you and thank you and thank you.... I know all about that gerbil... only I have chased him through rapid waters, and pouring down rains and storms... etc. I am tired.

I still feel bad about filing with the attorney general for child support, but have. Funny I did not know you could do this being seperated all this time... finally I just got so mad... I went to the att. general and asked... I did not think. Period. I would of filed for this a while back had I known I could without filing for a D.

He will be mad, no question about that... it may be an lb... but this is for the kids. My older son last night told me how mad he was at me for not taking him to the Dr. and just giving him over the counter medicine when he was sick.... Well I should be getting insurance soon anyway, but the financial crunch can be made easier with a Dad's support. Not that my son really HAS to go to the dr. and I am not taking him... just that in the past with insurance I would of rushed them there at the first sniffle... now I c an't afford to... and my son is saying I am a bad mom, he is 10- and hasn't been real nice lately anyway....

OK, what else?

ba, dont even worry about the functional or not, as far as an alcoholic is... I dont think he is functional.. it is just the terminology used to describe a working alcholic who is not under the bridge- he is still an Alcoholic, and I still hate it, period.. .and right now, he chooses not even to be in the functional stage... anyway... I am not at all married to that word, and see your point clearly.. just meant he worked and was better than he is now....

I found out today ws is prob. recieving more unemploy than I realize,... he has told me it is something like 100 a month or barely anythng- and i went to an indiv. counseling session and the person sd that it is prob. close to what he made at his job....

I hate the lies- ! I just am starting to feel like a pawn and that he has no intention of coming home and is just buying time... to live his lifestyle and hve his cake and eat it too - he is not acting lovingly... etc. and I am sooo tired of his attitude...

Gotta get bk to work- thanks all for being here.

I can see how some just want to throw up their hands about an alcohlic... it is so hard to wait out a change in behavior...

H