Not much to update........still in Plan A

W went to Omaha for TG. I bought my D a Xmas tree and put a card on it. It is sitting on their front porch at her house. I don't know what to expect. Just trying to show her a different side of me. I have been consistent and have not screwed up for a while now. over 3 weeks since any communication with W. I also sent her grandparents and mother a nice Holiday card. I was tempted to write in it but only signed my name. We were close before all of this. W will expect me to send them letters and call them, but only a nice "religious" holiday card. Maybe W will notice that I have changed, but I did it because I felt like it.

Well on Dec. 12th we have a court hearing on child custody. This will be the first time seeing each other in over 3 months. Boy, I dodn't know how she can go that long when we've been together 7 years and have a child together. She must really hate me, although she says she doesn't. I don't know if she will call before hearing or not.

Well, I do feel better. I don't cry anymore. Sometimes I get a big knot in my stomache thinking about her and wishing things would turn around for us.

I am still pondering a conciliator through the court. It would draw out divorce so "maybe" the fog may burn off by then plus it would allow us to meet together and discuss issues so maybe we can part on a better understanding. Who knows maybe I will....maybe I won't. Depends on how I feel in a month. I do know that there are other women out there, but they don't live with my daughter either though.

<small>[ November 30, 2002, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: AlanArthur ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AlanArthur:
<strong>...Well, I do feel better. I don't cry anymore. Sometimes I get a big knot in my stomache thinking about her and wishing things would turn around for us. ... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Get on med soon ... if it is often, your knot is cause by depression. Meanwhile just hanging there and don't try to guess her out or assume thing out her actions/words. Court order counseling is very good idea, get the court to appoint your lady counselor and tell the court that you are counseling w/ her and your W & you were counseling w/ her once. Again hold your horses and get busy replying some posts this is a holiday weekend ... -rh-

Yes I think the conciliator is a good idea at some point. I found out all my clothes and personal stuff is piled in the garage.

My mother had told W that she no longer wants to be the go between and that we must grow up and handle this ourself. See since the RO is in effect my mother picks up my D in another town and brings her to me in yet another town. Well they have a life too and this shuffling my daughter around feels wrong. Now my W told her attorney the situation and she will no longer will bring D to my mothers for drop off. My parents aren't young anymore either and my M never asked to be the go between.

I am so confused lately. I am trying to do a plan A, but I also think I should stand up to her. Seems like I get pushed around by her lawyer and her. I could have my lawyer do some manuevering to, but I don't want to make her mad. Yet I don't know if me being nice will work either.

She has changed everything at the house......plus all new clothes......dieting......tanning....new hairdo.....

I guess out with the old in with the new. Funny thing is she never went out and did any of these things to make herself more attractive to me.....is it because she had me and now she is looking?

I guess I just don't understand someone when they can put themselves first without thinking about what this marriage breakup will do to our daughter.

Wow what a conversation with W. Many things discussed. About 2 hours on phone. Still fog talk. Gave me a good chance to fill EN after big LB (which got her to call me in the first place). Hope she calls again. This time we both talked about relationship, next time I will not bring up unless she does. I know she has doubts about the divorce, but feels that is the only way to get rid of problems and find someone who will love her. She still doubts love by some of the LB's I do. We laughed a little and talked better than most times. She didn't have to call me, but she did. Amazing.

She even said "Bye" at the end. She never said that since seperation. Felt good. I know she is afraid of reconciling or trying to stay in marriage. I had a good chance to do Plan A letter on the phone. Think I did a pretty good job though. I brought up trying for our daughter. Usually she said this is manipulation and guilt........but this time she did not say it. I guess maybe the 3 weeks of no pursuing and doing little things may have helped. Now I need to go longer so she can witness true changes.

Did feel good talking to her.......MY HOLIDAY GIFT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Alan Arthur, so good to hear you hopeful and happy again!

Keep up the good work! And keep working on patience--it is a virtue. May your gift of conversation grow and blossom into restoration of your M.

Thanks,
Only problem is she sees me revert back to the same old person and I feel for some reason she stays on the phone with me. She mostly listens and sometimes talks about the marriage, but what she usually says is about why we shouldn't be together "that she deserves someone better" "to treat her like she deserves to be treated" That "it seems she has had back luck with men". I told her I know this and will be that person. She stated that she is a firm believer that everyone deserves a second chance, but believes she gave that to me many times and I failed to see it.
ut, she said our relationship has not "always" been bad. She said she was really attracted to me in the beginning because of the relationship I had with my daughter. I am a good father.

I think she was surprised that I was able to list some of her needs. She also said she lost a lot of love for me when I treated her like she was crazy thinking I had an EA. She said there was one time she questioned me and I smiled about it and disregarded her and a lot of love left her body. She wishes I had come forward about EA, but she doesn't care anymore anyway. She said she would not get jealous if I dated or had a girlfriend and she is very open about the guys she has talked to.....weird....she acts like we were nothing. Like we were roomates with no ties whatsoever. I don't get it 7 years and a child.

She sees nothing positive about us getting back together. She stated that we have always been two different people and never really "clicked". She wants to find someone that she will be "soulmates" with.

I feel most of the time she only talks to me because she's mad and wants to vent or find out info to use against me in divorce. I just don't know how I can make any of this up to her. She knows I'm still here and hanging on. I feel I have to tell her my feelings and be warm with her even if she is cold to me. It's like she is turning into a woman I have never known. She talks to me like we never knew each other. Everything is private, personal, or her business. Daughter was in background saying "I want to talk to my daddy. My daddy come home now." Then when she talked to me on the phone my D said "mommy said you naughty and can't come home." Of course my wife had the luxury of hearing all of this. I tried not to cry when talking to W, aand I told myself to be strong, but I had to pause a few times to gather myself. It's just the memories flood me when we talk.

She did aI said I would like to be able to give my D two parents in the same house who love each other. I told her I was now committed to working on the marriage like never before. She asked if the only reason I wanted to keep the family together is because (my other D w/exwife) that I never got the chance with other D? I said no, I love you much more than I ever did EXW and want to work hard at renewing our love. So many things said, but I don't know if she believes me, it's over completely, or if she is afraid of failure of reconciliation. I really think she knows we can make this work, but may not want to risk hard work and possible failure. She stated she has had a hard time with this and at one time in the beginning she did have doubts in her mind about the divorce.

I guess I don't know what to believe or not to believe.

Just got off phone with exwife(remember this my my 2nd M)

The big LB I did was talked to my 9yr old about current W. W was in Omaha for T-Giving and spent time with 9yr old. I talked to 9 year old asking questions about W. My W also called my ex and ex told her things I asked 9 yr old. What a mess. I made a big mistake and apologized to everyone. My ex told me that she asked my current w if she wanted her to talk to me that this is definately going to be a divorce and for me to realize that and move on. My W replied "NO". That is funny. My ex says she is confused as she can't figure out if W really wants D or to work on M. My W never told Ex that we talked on phone 3 hrs last night until 2am. (Redhat can attest to that as I was on the phone w/him when W called me)

My ex is confused as she said someone is not telling the truth, but she said she does not want to be involved. We were all guilty of using the kids and I stated we all need to stop it. My ex is wondering if W is not talking to me for that long so I don't get upset---like she is using me to keep me calm so I don't do anything foolish or violent. I told her I would never do anything and that I realize this will probably be a divorce and I must move on, although I do not want it. I told her I am the one that has gotten all the help. It is W that has not.

W thinks I may have been in house when she was gone. The X-mas tree was outside that I bought. My parents dropped it off. So she was frantic last night. So I'll go back to Plan A'ing at a distance again. Go back into hibernation as Redhat puts it. I don't know if she is going to be like this with me(someone she dedicated our marriage to) then maybe I need to find someone else. She isn't the same woman I knew and maybe that loving woman is gone. Just so damn confused. Tired of the lies. Just plain tired. She thinks I'm a bad person......I don't know what I can do to prove her wrong at this point.

She said that she has heard stories about when your divorcing and the one spouse hurts or kills the other. I asked spouse since we seperated if I have ever threatened her by phone or email.....she said "NO". I said I have only been nice and only said nice things about you to others.

I just don't get it. Is she justifying? Trying to make me look bad to others?

Alan,

Don't assume and don't guess and don't try to make sense ... fog is irrational. It would driven you to crazy house if you let it. Focus on what you need to do not what you want to happen. It is very normal for BS/WS/OP to pull everyone to their side. Someone has to stop first ... and it better be you, it is part of your plan A. I agree w/ your exW to leave the kids alone. Your W's R w/ everyone including D is her business to loose or to strengthen. You should only worry about your R w/ everyone. You could fool a person one time but not every one at all time. I don't let my WW's words about me to get to me ... everyone else including my 2 D defended me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Pepole will see thru the truth or at least will see the fact.

As I told you, never ask about W unless they volunteer it. Not to your in-laws, not to your mom and certainly not to your D.

-rh-

Well,
Ex W said tonight that I must go on with life as she feels W is going thru w/D, but she feels she is afraid to tell me point blank as she feels I might hurt her.

I talked to W tonight. I asked her why she thought that. She said she feels that because of how I acted in August that I might become irrational again. She says this obssesive behavior is an indication I could snap if she doesn't say or do the right things. I said I understand, but I only want to work on M. I would never be the way you hear others have been. I said you know me better than that. She said I would think so. I can see how she would think that. Why have I pursued? From day one I have goofed this up more. I keep pushing her away and I am causing this divorce by my behavior.

My wife said right now, honestly, she wants a divorce. She has no love for me. She did say she knows it can return, but only IF SHE wanted to work on marriage. Right now she cannot see that happening. She said I did a bad job of validating her as a person. I said it appears it is over then because you feel you don't want to work on it. Then she said something odd......she said "if that's the way you feel.I never said that".

She said marriage was dysfunctional a long time ago and she did everything to try to get me to work on it. She also thinks divorce is final 12-16 (90 days in Iowa and she signed petition 9-16), but I told her I just got Discovery papers and have 30 days to return. She thought I had them a long time ago. I told her it is 90 days minimum.

God, why am I obssesive? Is it just my nature? I was doing really good. I tried to fulfill her needs, but I keep messing up. How did we ever get to this point?

Alan,

It is very normal for WS to push away BS, it is easier to do than admitting they are at fault too. It is very hard but you have to focus on your plan A even more. Do only what we have discuss no more no less and post here if you want to change it. Her point of view is valid on you ... about afraid of you. You have to show it to her that you are not. How ? don't do thing like during turkey day ... you were busted. Actions, actions and actions. Stop initiating talking on R and don't persue something that is obviously fog ... you will get irrational answer and drive you nuts.

Who does call first this time ? ... hope it wasn't you !, I will be very disapointed. Don't ask anything about R !. You are asking the fog, you get fogesse answer !. Talk evrything under the sun but R.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Why have I pursued? From day one I have goofed this up more. I keep pushing her away and I am causing this divorce by my behavior.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now look at you, get suck into her fog !. You persued b/c you don't know any better ... now you know better you should stay put on your plan A, if you still goof ... I don't need to send you 2x4, your W did. It is her choice to Dv and nothing you could do but minimize the damage and focus on your plan A all the way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>God, why am I obssesive? Is it just my nature? I was doing really good. I tried to fulfill her needs, but I keep messing up. How did we ever get to this point?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not God but I try to answer it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ... b/c you love her. No body is perfect, we have an old saying "Even a cow won't step into the same pothole" ... meaning that you are smarter than this to repeat your mistake more than once ... or aren't you ? LOL !. There is no perfect plan A and you have to fine tune it to make it better.

I hope this R talk that you push will give you a lesson not to initiate anything anymore. I think you need some help w/ 2x4 to hibernate LOL !.
-rh-

Dear W.

Once a long time ago when I was a small boy, I learned how to read. Before I learned to read, I had no idea what kind of world waited for me. It has enriched my life in many ways, I would never want to go back. I almost can't imagine that there are people in the adult world that cannot read but it is so.

Once only a short time ago, I knew nothing about marriage. To drive a car, we study, and take a test, it is much easier to get married but for me, much harder to live. I am learning about Marriage now, just as I learned to read. I have gotten my first few words, I can read simple sentences. It is opening up a whole new world for me, but marriage is a world that is shared, and I am alone. I obsessed early on, and made many mistakes. I believe that was because I was realizing for the first time just how bad it would be to live with out you. In some things, I am a very slow learner.
Since I have began learning to "read" as it were, I have learned enough to know that I could be successful at it if I continue learning. I would need your help with this to be able to give our D her two parents back under the same roof. I believe with dating, and continued improvement on my part we could be in love again, and we could be happy together.

My wish is to be given another chance. I realize that you gave me many chances, but that was before I began to learn to read.

I realize that everything depends on you, but, I had to ask. Please realize that if you give me a chance, I am just learning to read, and It will take me a while. More than anything else in the world, I wish for that chance.

With Love, AA

Alan,
I don't know if something like this would help. If you use it, modify it so it is "you". It is just a suggestion.

SS

Not much to update........still in Plan A.

Wow what a conversation with W. Many things discussed. About 2 hours on phone.

Hope she calls again.

since the RO is in effect

Why are you having so much contact with a restraining order in effect?

My parents aren't young anymore either and my M never asked to be the go between.
So how did she end up doing it? Did you just tell her she is going to do this?

She still doubts love by some of the LB's I do.

Only problem is she sees me revert back to the same old person.

I don't know what I can do to prove her wrong at this point.
It's very simple.
You can prove her wrong by proving her wrong. Don't commit Lovebusters. Don't do it! It is not an option.

You are trying to prove to her you can be a better husband and do things which would improve the relatiosnhip, yet you still hurt her in some way while talking to her. This simply gives her justification (however small) that you cannot and are not willing to change.

AA,

God, why am I obssesive? Is it just my nature?

You have NO respect for boundaries. You have no respect for the ones that she sets and you have none for the court sanctioned ones either. You, in essence, have no respect for anything other than what you want and when you want it.

Sorry, to be so harsh, but that is what it is. You are living in AlanArthur world and you need to join the rest of us in the real world.

JMHO,
Always,
committed

Alan, listen to what committed wrote with "OBJECTIVE" ears. There is so much truth and honesty there. I have posted to you and I read your thread and wish you the strength and patience and everything in between to see you thru this.BUT, I also see that it is all about what you are doing to continue, you have not set up any boundaries and in doing so you have lost so much in the fact that your WW has no respect for you and will play and play and play on it. You are jumping thru hoops but not getting the credit since she knows you will anyways. Yes, I feel the obsessive traits you display would make anyone a little leary because it is operating in a different kind of "fog" state then the WS's. I am not judging you at all Alan and you should know this. I feel the pain and loss of what you are putting yourself thru. You ask how can a person do that when there are children, have you read all the posts from so many BS's about how it is done every day? You know that the WS will sacfrafice ANYTHING for one second of "fogbliss". So, I ask you, do you not respect yourself to set boundaries that are HEALTHY and SAFE mentally, and emotionally for you first and then your child. Why you first? Because if you don't, you can not be healthy for anybody else around you, including WW. Please know that I understand that you are going to behave and do whatever you want anyways, but I do care enough to give you my 2 cents even if you might ignore me and think I'm being negative. I am not being judgemental at all. I just feel with what I read about your posts, you will listen to any posts that you perceive that supports your behavior more so than the ones who are trying to get you to view this from a more panoramic point of view and get you out of the tunneled, one-tracked cycle it is becoming. If you want me to shut-up, I will. But it seems that you are asking for advice be it what you want to hear or not. My thoughts are with you.

Yes I can handle critisism. It seems I KNOW what I have to do, but just have a hard time applying it. I am a very impatient person, so this makes it difficult. I went a few weeks and did really good, then I have a relapse. I sure wish I could take it back.

Wife just emailed me. For the first time she addressed email to me and started it with "Alan" and ended with "thanks Judy" This is the first time for that. She never has addressed me or signed off to any prior emails. Email was just asking me to forward email addresses and US mail to me. No big deal, but I suppose it is nice to have her more cordial in emails.

Alan,

Have faith in your plan A ... it seems like 1,000 miles apart and no impact at all. However as you see, a bit of changes come from her and a mix signals. At on hand she ask you to moved your mail from "her resident" yet on the other hand she is more civil than before. Keep doing your plan A consistently and don't do more or do less ... presistant and consistent are the key beside patient of giving time. Let her see your changes ... do what she ask you to do and email her back few days from now ... just to inform her that it had been done, no more no less. She is in control and you have to let her feel that way and no surprises from you. Don't be surprise if the frequency of her contact will increase, it is your chance to show what you have learn so far. No R talk and don't jump at her fog talk ... no more LB'ed. Anyway you have not answer my question on who initiate the call last night. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> -rh-

<small>[ December 02, 2002, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

Redhat,
You know the answer...sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I let my exw get the best of me telling me W was afraid of me. I just wanted to talk to W and let her know. I started conversation letting her know I would have someone pick up tree. Her voice was so sad when she answered the phone. She was very quiet. We talked for awhile and both talked of relationship. She was crying a little as was I. I told her it was so hard on everyone and I know she wants the D. She said she was starting to become upset so I said goodbye and so did she. We also talked of daughter.

AA:

I know you have said that you are a very impatient person, but therein lies the answer 2 your problems... You need 2 LEARN PATIENCE. Your constant badgering of your BW will do NOTHING 2 help you reconcile with her. If you leave her alone for a while, until SHE wants 2 contact YOU, you will have accomplished a lot. Stop this R talk!!!! And stop it NOW!

Hey calling Alan Arthur!!!!!!! Calling Alan Arthur!!!! Where are you Alan Arthur?

Don't give up. She WILL be back!!!!

I wish I could truly believe you. I wake up evry morning wishing I was home. Each day is harder and harder. She doesn't want anything to do with me. If I just would've backed off initially maybe I would have a chance, but so much has happened. She said she could love me again, but that is IF she wanted to work on marriage.

Funny, she wants to find a new man to have a relationship with, but will she be in love instantly? No. So why doesn't that give me an edge? Is it all the bad memories?

I know if she had decree today she would sign it. She has really changed. She is not the same sweet woman I knew. Weird, one comes around finally, the other goeas the opposite direction. She acts like we are bitter enemies and I don't want to be. We have so much history together and a daughter.

Her mother sent me a Xmas card. That was nice. I had sent them one too. I haven't spoke or seen her mother since this happened.

Well I better think the worse and try to go on. Then maybe the Lord will perform a miracle and let me have another chance at making my wife and family happy. I sure wish she would really come here and read the threads. Maybe it would help her. She said Marriage Builders sounds ridiculous. I guess because she knows inside that she might be wrong in what she's doing. I don't know maybe she has a clear concious. She justifies everything.