I just returned from a trip to my mothers. Her personality is negative, controlling, and nothing is ever right or good enough. Everything has to be HER way and she is an authority...no one else knows anything. I am trying to learn new behavior and watch my responses.

An example: My sister and her husband are coming here next week for a bridal shower for their son’s fiancé. My mother told me that my sister insinuated it was going to be a flying trip here and back (we live 3 hours away) but she could come if she wanted to. My mother said she did not feel up to that because they could not get here until later in the afternoon (and couldn’t get up and leave earlier in the morning and have more time to visit.)

Today I talked to my sister. My mother turned right around to my sister the next day and told her sarcastically that when she mentioned the trip to me, I did not even say a word about her coming, like I did not invite her or didn't want her to come. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Just the week before I had told her if she was able to come, to bring her dog and not board it at the vet. (Her dog is like a person to her! and another excuse for not coming).

Truth is, when she was telling me all of this I DIDN’T say a word. We had already talked about it and I had told her to come. I had decided that part of our problem is that she does not want me or anyone else telling her what to do. She WANTS to be in control and does not want anyone telling her anything. So, when she mention it again, I just kept my mouth shut.

I figured it was best if I did not say anything. She is 76 years old and can decide what she wants to do. I am d@mned if I do and D@med if I don’t. She acts offended I guess because I did not comment or encourage her to come.

She indicates to me that she is not coming because my sister said it was a flying trip and then indicates to my sister that I did not even encourage her to come!

I guess we have a triangle going on. My sister and I do talk about how she is. It drives us both nuts and we try to encourage each other. But I guess it is not good because today my sister said that she puts her in the middle and she doesn't want to be in the middle. I said I should not talk about her anymore ....I didn't mean to put her in the middle. Then my sister says, "well, it is ok...most of the time it is ME talking about her anyway"

Christmas was mentioned and she asked if we knew when we would be coming back. I told her that I did not know yet but it would probably not be Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. We have a 22-year-old son and want to be here at home in our town. I did say that she should come here. She is insulted if we do not go on “the DAY” (Christmas Eve/Day), but we want to stay home.

It makes me want to NOT be around her at all because if I talk at all, she is so quick to twist and turn everything and take offense. And if I don’t talk, she takes offense. Nothing is ever right or good enough.

On top of all of that, just this year, she gave my sister and I two different rings that we were to inherit. They are both expensive (around $7,000) 3 carat diamonds. At the time, I told my sister I sort of hated to take it, because I was afraid that the ring would come with strings attached. (Sorta like “I gave her that ring, and LOOK how she treats me!…..because she cannot control me…etc..)

She gets insulted if I don’t go visit her often enough, yet when I do go, I feel as though I am “bothering” her. I don’t feel like she enjoys our visits.

Can you help me at all? What do you do if you are in a no win situation and just want to not even see you own mother?

Reading the thread to Honey, I realize now how some of all this could have attributed to previous problems in my marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Please HELP!!!!!!

<small>[ November 30, 2002, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Hi Susan ~

Sounds to me like your mother gets alot of mileage out of being a victim - and you and your sister are locked in a death match for control with her!

As you already know, you can't change your mom. She is who she is.

But you can change your own behavior.

The hardest thing to realize is that you are NOT responsible for her feelings. Thats where you and I both get into trouble in dealing with other people. People pleasing never works and simply causes exhaustion and resentment.

As I can tell from your post, you are spending alot of time trying to control the outcome of any given situation with your mother. The outcome you are trying to achieve is your mother being pleased and happy. So you are tying yourself in knots, trying to gain her approval.

The problem is, she LIKES being a victim, and she's not going to let you deny her that fix!

Once you let go of that desire to control her emotions, you'll have so much less stress!

As I tell Honey, you've got to move your buttons. What are buttons? Buttons are the things that your mother uses to manipulate you - for example, she knows that she can say or do something that makes you feel guilty and therefore you will react in a certain way. You can be darn sure that she does this with both you and your sister. You see, its a dance. She does A, and you react with B. So then she does C to get you to do D. And then you or your sister will do E to get her to do F. And so on, a very elaborate, COMFORTABLE dance.

So the next time she does A, don't react. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Unfortunately, not participating in the dance will mean an all out assault on your buttons to try and force you to go back to "dancing" again.

So Susan, stop trying to control her emotions. Invite her for a visit, and then leave the emotions to her. If she wants to visit, then welcome her with open arms, if she wants to call your sister and complain, ignore it. It's not your business!!! If she calls you to tell you that you are a bad daughter for not taking in her dog and buying the plane ticket along with the invitation, say: "Mom, we would love to see you, I'm sorry that you don't feel up visiting."

See, she is used to getting her own way and feeling powerful by acting like a victim. It gets you daughters jumping through hoops doesn't it?

And yes, if you do this with your mother, you probably do this with your family too.

Hi Susan...

I just wanted to post on a particular button pushing incident or two where I moved the buttons...

I have filed for csuupport this week as you may have read. After a 14 mo. seperation, and this is not filing for a D yet.. but it does have me thinking in that direction....

My H has tried to threaten NO MORE COUNSELING.. which we just started again... my reaction when he sd it- OK. A few days later he claims he still wants to go, but it still depends on how I act if he goes or not.. my answer OK.

No more begging or needy reactions to MY NEED for counseling or to RESTORE our M. At least when I can help it. It works to move buttons.

Think about that story. A lot of what my H says to me are empty threats... to see what kind of reaction he can actually get out of me. He is very manipulative... I just want to please too much and end up doing all kinds of things I don't want to do... to get his approval or happiness.

One button I think he is trying to push is to get me to move. Not happening.... Now that might be something he would like and would threaten not to restore our M over, but will that be the deciding factor? I hope not, if it is .. there is a big problem.

Anyway- my mom can do the same kinds of things.. but my parents are probably a bit more open to discussion lately.... I always bring everything out clearly in the open... now this I don't know if it is good or bad.. but have had the - are there strings attached to this gift? question and discussed it with them... they say NO... I see progress and detachement... I noticed my mother reading codepenendt no more... My parents are slow to change if at all to change.... age can make it more difficult.

Your mom may never change but your reactions to her can.

I really am learning this with my H. I am still working on it with my parents. WIth my h it is so obvious , as an active alcoholic, usually- what he is trying to do... and I have been in this game with him.... so intensely... I know the buttons... he pushes...

Think on it, and don't let her make you react... Kindly make offers to her like you did to accept the dog and her...when you are willing to.. don't let her guilt you into it- it didn't sound like you invited her, but she invited herself? But it is ok to be nice, just end it there.. don't go changing all the plans for her, etc. Just make your offer and keep it at that... simply put.

OH MY do I know the holiday thing..> I have a grandmother.. 2 in fact... these ladies are in their 80's who still won't move their celebrations from THE DAY! One is an inlaw and the other my grandmother... well I admit she has once or twice , but both prefer everyone to be there on THE DAY... My Husband's gmother- could this be controlling... HAS NEVER EVER NOT HAD MOST OR ALL OF HER KIDS>>> ETC> there on christmas eve.. they all have grown children and now she wants the grandkids and greatgrandkids all there on Christmas EVe.. regardless of inlaws and their own smaller family unit situations...

UGH. CONTROL.

Hugs to you. I am growing in this ... there is also a codependents anonymous group.. and Melodie Beaty has a book the 12 steps for codependents-w hich gives good thought to all the steps.

I have really been thinking about how when I married my h... before the M and for a while after I Loved him so much... I always did things HIS WAY... funny he started not to like it when I started to realize he was walking on me and changed little by little... He liked me that way.... also funny that my controlling H... usually has friends who are less powerful than him around. or used to... he likes the power.... sad. I was reading that the power one holds, be it financial, job, husband over wife in bibical sense, etc. IS TO HELP AND HONOR THAT PERSON LESS POWERFUL- as the lessor of the 2 in power is to serve in submission, biblically that is... to honor and help because that person would never hurt the one in service....

Hugs to you, HONEY

<small>[ December 01, 2002, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

Thank you both for taking time to reply. I am off to church and don't have much time.

My next question involves Christmas. I begin to feel guilty for not providing her "Christmas cheer" and being at her house during the holidays like she wants. I do feel sorry for her and hate to think of her sitting home alone, but then if I go there when she wants, I don't think that makes her that much happier either.

I get depressed and actually hate Christmas because it has always been such an ordeal. I would like a ticket to jump from Halloween straight to January.

Is it selfish and mean to ignore family (her) on holidays because I am taking care of myself (and MY family) and doing what I would rather do? How would you handle that?

Thank you again for taking yor time to reply. It does help!

Dearest Susan ....

You've gotten 2 excellent replies ... food for thought.

I just wanted to say ... I'm thinking warm thoughts about you.

This is my message:

You ARE a good daughter. The thoughtfulness you offer to your mother is no way diminished by the awkwardness of her replies. Imagine how it feels from her side .... she lives daily with a deep abyss between herself and happiness ... never having known emotional satiety. You ARE a good daughter.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thank you Pepper. That actually makes me cry to read that (and I am not a cryer). Part of my two years in therapy I spent dealing with this relationship problem, and I STILL haven't gotten it. I go back in forth between feeling like I am being strong and feeling guilty for not being a better daughter.

I told my sister that while I was visiting during Thanksgiving the thought kept going over and over in my head "My mother just does NOT like me". My sister said "well, she thinks you don't like HER."

I have tried to be a good daughter. I have been a people pleaser but I finally realized that it doesn't work. Therefore the no win situation. It seems to be such a fine line to balance all the time. If I make suggestions...I am telling her how to run her business (control). If I sit and keep my mouth shut it always seems to backfire on me too (like I did not agree with her, I did not mention her coming here...ect...)

I wish they were empty threats but in the past she has gotten angry and stopped calling or speaking to me. For a while I would call her anyway and suffer through her coolness trying to do the right thing. I would just pretend that nothing happened.

The last time it happened I decided fine, I will not bother you. I will let you have it your way. I detached. She stopped speaking to me in June and called on my cell phone on 9/11 because of the world situation (we were traveling to see our son graduate from Army basic training at the time of the attacks). If this had not happened, there is not telling when she would have called.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>Hi Susan...

I just wanted to post on a particular button pushing incident or two where I moved the buttons...

I have filed for csuupport this week as you may have read. After a 14 mo. seperation, and this is not filing for a D yet.. but it does have me thinking in that direction....

My H has tried to threaten NO MORE COUNSELING.. which we just started again... my reaction when he sd it- OK. A few days later he claims he still wants to go, but it still depends on how I act if he goes or not.. my answer OK.

No more begging or needy reactions to MY NEED for counseling or to RESTORE our M. At least when I can help it. It works to move buttons.

Think about that story. A lot of what my H says to me are empty threats... to see what kind of reaction he can actually get out of me. He is very manipulative... I just want to please too much and end up doing all kinds of things I don't want to do... to get his approval or happiness.

One button I think he is trying to push is to get me to move. Not happening.... Now that might be something he would like and would threaten not to restore our M over, but will that be the deciding factor? I hope not, if it is .. there is a big problem.

Anyway- my mom can do the same kinds of things.. but my parents are probably a bit more open to discussion lately.... I always bring everything out clearly in the open... now this I don't know if it is good or bad.. but have had the - are there strings attached to this gift? question and discussed it with them... they say NO... I see progress and detachement... I noticed my mother reading codepenendt no more... My parents are slow to change if at all to change.... age can make it more difficult.

Your mom may never change but your reactions to her can.

I really am learning this with my H. I am still working on it with my parents. WIth my h it is so obvious , as an active alcoholic, usually- what he is trying to do... and I have been in this game with him.... so intensely... I know the buttons... he pushes...

Think on it, and don't let her make you react... Kindly make offers to her like you did to accept the dog and her...when you are willing to.. don't let her guilt you into it- it didn't sound like you invited her, but she invited herself? But it is ok to be nice, just end it there.. don't go changing all the plans for her, etc. Just make your offer and keep it at that... simply put.

OH MY do I know the holiday thing..> I have a grandmother.. 2 in fact... these ladies are in their 80's who still won't move their celebrations from THE DAY! One is an inlaw and the other my grandmother... well I admit she has once or twice , but both prefer everyone to be there on THE DAY... My Husband's gmother- could this be controlling... HAS NEVER EVER NOT HAD MOST OR ALL OF HER KIDS>>> ETC> there on christmas eve.. they all have grown children and now she wants the grandkids and greatgrandkids all there on Christmas EVe.. regardless of inlaws and their own smaller family unit situations...

UGH. CONTROL.

Hugs to you. I am growing in this ... there is also a codependents anonymous group.. and Melodie Beaty has a book the 12 steps for codependents-w hich gives good thought to all the steps.

I have really been thinking about how when I married my h... before the M and for a while after I Loved him so much... I always did things HIS WAY... funny he started not to like it when I started to realize he was walking on me and changed little by little... He liked me that way.... also funny that my controlling H... usually has friends who are less powerful than him around. or used to... he likes the power.... sad. I was reading that the power one holds, be it financial, job, husband over wife in bibical sense, etc. IS TO HELP AND HONOR THAT PERSON LESS POWERFUL- as the lessor of the 2 in power is to serve in submission, biblically that is... to honor and help because that person would never hurt the one in service....

Hugs to you, HONEY</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could really relate to what you wrote to Susan, Honey. I have the book by Melodie Beaty on Co-Dependent No More, (? do I remember the title correctly). I bought it a few years ago recommended by family counselor. It brings back lots of memories. I feel I am repeating my first marriage all over again in some ways. I feel that my 2nd husband is trying to push buttons so that I will move out. Honestly, I do not want to do that again. It is so unfair, to be the one that must walk out and leave everything. I did that after first marriage and still got "stuck" with all the bills. I pulled out of debt all by myself. My second husband though thinks the same as I do on finances and is very careful with money. My second husband is also much better person than first husband though. He has always been a participative father and husband. But, my current husband's drinking and anger in our family is more than I can deal with on my own.
I spoke to him briefly today (he's not had anything to drink now in 3 days). He slept outside in our camping trailer last night. I only spoke to him about how I miss the close relationship we used to have. He says he is not satisfied with our relationship. I reminded him how good it has been these past three months and he agreed it had but he said that is just not enough. He says he just doesn't know if we should be together anymore. Then he said he has to go out and meet a scout leader for a recharter documents and he doesn't know when he'll be back home. He left without another word and I just sat in living room and started crying after he left. I will go to Al-Anon and I will try to give it 6 months as you all have advised.

Have a nice day!
-Amaryllis

Deep question....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Imagine how it feels from her side .... she lives daily with a deep abyss between herself and happiness ... never having known emotional satiety </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what do you believe is the key to finding that???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Well ... perhaps developing a "deep" and profound sense of her personal gratitude would help Susan bridge her own abyss .... the abyss between wishing her mum were somehow different ... and loving her mum as is.

When mum pushes your buttons Susan ... you become more like your mum. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Susan ... be content with whatever good there is between you two that satisfies. The glass is half full type of thing.

Wanting more ... is what makes what you have feel empty.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ December 02, 2002, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When mum pushes your buttons Susan ... you become more like your mum. Susan ... be content with whatever good there is between you two that satisfies. The glass is half full type of thing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BINGQ! But, I need help with this!!!

Do you have recommendations of things I can read to help me become stronger in this area?

Is is selfish to not go at Christmas?

Thank you for the reply Pepper. I'm learning!

Hi Susan ~

What exactly do you call ignoring?

What's wrong with inviting her to join YOU and your family in your celebrations?

If she chooses not to come, that is her choice. That's not your business and it is certainly not ignoring her - her protests to the contrary.

If you don't want her to come (and there's nothing wrong with that) then call her on Christmas day and send her a nice gift and card.

You are NOT responsible for being her happiness.

I think it is selfish to force your family to give up their family traditions and celebrations because you feel obligated to make your mother happy at their expense.

When you married your husband, your priorities should have shifted. You, your husband and your children's needs should come first!

So, sit down with your husband, and ask him how he would like to spend Christmas, and POJA it with him.

And btw, ditto what Pepper said.

My husband is so sweet, he will say, yes we NEED to go, even when he does not want to. I suppose "ignore" was a bad choice of words.

I can guess that my mother will make the excuse that it is 3 hours away from her and she is 76 years old, she cannot drive all that way by herself and does not have any way to get here. She will find SOME way to put the guilt back on me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you married your husband, your priorities should have shifted. You, your husband and your children's needs should come first! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have been married 26 years and the problem is I realized this too late. If I had set that pattern to begin with it would have been easier to accept.

What Pepper said is exactly on target. Now, I have just got to find a way to adjust my thinking and actions. I need reinforcement! I need a book or more to elaborate on the topic! How did you two get so wise?

Thank so much!!!!!

<small>[ December 02, 2002, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Susan ~

Let go of the outcome!

If she says its too far to come, then that's her answer!!

You are trying to figure out what RIGHT action you can take that will result in a specific outcome (ie your mother will be pleased and love you).

You can NOT make her pleased. What you are trying to do is manipulate her right back!

As for your priorities...why is 26 years of marriage too late to change?

What you are doing right now is throwing a big temper tantrum - You want it YOUR way and no other way!

Sounds like your mom huh? Self-will is what is doing you in right now.

Does your husband know what the POJA is? You see, in a POJA, for him to sacrifice his needs or wants for you, is to break the POJA! And even though he may say "Yes we SHOULD go", I would be willing to bet there's a bit of a love bank drain, since you are gaining at his expense. This is NOT the way it is supposed to work.

So your husband needs to get honest, and you need to let go and straighten out your priorities.

Your MOTHER is responsible for her own choices. Stop trying to force her to feel or do anything.

How do I develop that sense of deep sense of personal gratitude? Is is developed by just becoming more "aware"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for your priorities...why is 26 years of marriage too late to change? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh it is not too late at all. Just much harder to change after doing something one way for so long.

When I think of talking to her and asking her here for Christmas or telling her we have decided to stay here, I feel such a sense of dread.

Thank you for telling me what I need to hear. Throwing a big temper tantrum is the last thing I want to do!

This will be inovative and challenge you to reach for gratitude ....

Write and send your mum a love letter!

Now, Susan .... pick yourself up off the floor! (after having fallen down while reading my suggestion)

Write to your mum weekly .... buy a bunch of beautiful note cards and put them aside... you know the ones with a picture on the front and blank inside?

Take 5 minutes every week to send her some little bit of pleasant memory, good wishes, and a "thank you" for all that she's done for you.

I'll bet you one million dollars ... that if you do this eventually her tone will change. It may take 6 months of weekly good wishes ... or longer ... but, think about it Susan .... you have the POWER to reinforce what is good between you. (I think the US mail is a wonderful thing for avoiding arguements and sending compliments)

Do this no matter what her reaction/response may show. This is for YOU.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ December 02, 2002, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper, you are unreal. I am picking myself up off the floor.

And yes, you are right. That is a very good idea, but one I have not thought of.

It seems sooooo hard because I am not close to her like I should be, but it is something I will force myself to do. Matter of fact, my birthday is Wednesday and some friends gave me a little party last night. Guess what one of my gifts was? Those lovely cards you are talking about... reproductions of paintings. It must be a sign, huh?

Now, IS THERE a book that will reinforce my sense of gratitude? or am I going to just rely on all of you to guide me and pull me along?

Thanks bunches!

The books by Sarah Ban Breathnach come to mind. (Simple Abundance is one of her books) Look her up on Amazon and read the reviews.

"It seems soooooo hard ...." YEP, that's why it's worth doing! ... only hard to get started... I predict you'll eventually come to enjoy this ... because you will feel empowered by your own actions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pepper

Thank you. Pepper, you and Bramblrose are both excellent. You should open a practice together!

I actually already have the book Simple Abundance. I will have to dig it out and see if I can get inspired.

Bramblerose, do you know of others to add?

Thanks again.

Susan,

I am enjoying reading your thread. This turns out to be one of the many "gifts" I have seen on MB because any one of us can use this idea on any relationship that needs building! I like it! CSue