H and I have had a few setbacks, making ours a less-than-ideal recovery. Lately, I find that things totally unrelated to his A's irk me to the point of wanting to throw in the towel. Or when I see him getting irritated, I think to myself, "You have no right to get mad at me..." Of course, I know that's not true--he has as much right to get mad as I do. I was just wondering if some of you who are well into recovery could give me some idea of how long this feeling may linger.

After major setback #3, forgiveness seems to be a lot slower in coming, although I am trying and praying. Things just feel very cold between us and I'm not sure at this point if it is coming more from him or from me. I'm just trying to hang in there at least through the holidays, although I've said that for at least 2 years now...

<small>[ December 02, 2002, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Persevering ]</small>

Persevering,

I wish I was even half as far as you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'll bump this up for you and ask a question.

Do you and H have an enthusiastically agreed to plan make your M better?

What drove my W and me apart was not knowing what we expected from each other.

Just some thoughts from new kid.

Hello P

Don't usually see you over on GQII.

Answers to your question - well, I don't think I have any really. It seems this is something ongoing for you that you struggle with, you want to get over it, but there always seems to be something else that reminds you and gets you going again. P, I think I can understand that. If you can read my latest thread here, you will see that seems to be where my H is, but he is in a much more severe situation - he needs to get out and find himself again. I wonder, is that how you feel, lost within yourself, but trying to do the right thing?

Even as a FWS, I understand and hear what you are saying. You have tried and tried and tried, and your recovery has been set back by your H's ongoing contact (was it more than one OW too?). Sometimes "cold" works better, because love and enthusiasm can hurt you again can't it?

Anyway Persevering, take care of yourself. I hate the thought of Christmas with H not living here.

Wishing you well from London.

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was just wondering if some of you who are well into recovery could give me some idea of how long this feeling may linger.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hate to offer what would sound like a simple boilerplate answer, but it will last as long as you let it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think to myself, "You have no right to get mad at me..."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too, I very often find myself with these same thoughts, I think it is normal. To keep it under control I have a mental drill I run through in these cases. I remind myself that true forgiveness is not using the A to hurt her, even though it would make me the winner in all arguments. Then I remind myself that this particular issue has nothing to do with the A, just life. I tell myself that I have to separate the two or I’ll just grow to hate her and she me.

Forgiveness isn’t a one-time thing; it’s a daily thing.

It gets easier with practice but it won't go away until you start to make it go away.

Oz

Hi, Luki. I read your summaries and it sounds like you are doing well, under the circumstances. And your tag line would be good for us all to remember--our spouses are never 100% wrong (except maybe in going through with their A's). No, we've never had what you would call a "plan," although I have suggested it, since H is such a planner in other things.

Hi, Lisa. I'm sorry about your recent turn of events, but it could be a good thing for both of you, if you let it. Just remember that we're all here for you. You have been getting some great support. Yes, there were 2 OW, but the recent contact was with only one of them. At one point, I really believed that I could handle running into them on a semi-regular basis in our small town, I could be "above it." Lately, I'm having my doubts.

Hey, oz. I guess you figured out that our next separation has been put on hold for awhile. Yeah, I know, the answer lies within myself. It's something I've just got to do.

A couple of weeks ago, H was teaching our Sunday School class about the gift of God's salvation and forgiveness. The only thing we have to do is accept it. We can't earn it. But it's not truly a gift until we reach out and take it. That same weekend, H had talked about feeling that he still does not deserve to be forgiven for his A's. I told him, the night after the S.S. lesson, that I felt like I had been offering him a gift, and he was simply refusing to accept it. I told him that, if he wanted to be punished instead, that could be arranged. Of course, he doesn't want that either.

He has admitted that he has become hardened. I thought the other day about how I have tried everything I can think of to show that I still love him and forgive him (although, oz, I still have to work on that--it is a daily thing). If that hasn't softened him one bit over the last two years (and it doesn't seem to have), then what will? Has he become so hardened that coldness is all he is capable of? And is it permanent? Just wondering...

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Persevering ]</small>

I had another thought and wanted your input, guys. When barraged with the "bad stuff" (resentment, thoughts of A, etc.), has anyone tried just completely "forgetting" about the A, like it never happened? Could that work? (At one point, I thought--not too seriously--about hypnosis since this just doesn't seem to be going away.) Can I ever view OWs as just people? Can my other conflicts with H be simply over money or the kids or whatever? Can I consciously wipe this out of my mind? This seems to be what most WSs want, for it to go away and for everything to just be "normal." Is it possible? Or (see my previous post) maybe H does want and need to be "punished" (maybe exposed) in order to put this behind us. Just thinking...

Another thought I had last night was that, regardless of whether I stay or go, the OWs win. If I stay, they will always be "there," even if only in my mind, ready to strike at a moment's notice. If I go, the "D" (I hate to even use the word "d******" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) will serve as a constant reminder of their presence in my life. Of course, H had a hand in it, too. I guess, with H's admittedly hardened heart coupled with my own insecurities and confusion, I am doubting if we really can overcome this.

So, do I just continue to work on me and my attitudes? Or should I try to further explore H's hardness and seeming unwillingness to accept forgiveness? Maybe he's just unwilling to forgive himself?

I do know (was it you, Lisa, that said this?) that being cold certainly prevents any further heartache. "If I don't get too close, I can't get hurt (or inflict hurt) so badly again."

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Persevering ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, we've never had what you would call a "plan," although I have suggested it, since H is such a planner in other things.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO if you don't form a game plan you could find yourself saying "I didn't know that you liked that" etc... and never make any progress.

What about filling out the EN questionaire or any others on this site? That would be a start. Thank you for the encouragement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can I consciously wipe this out of my mind? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be careful there;do not deny yourself the anger that you feel. What you do with the anger is the most important thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another thought I had last night was that, regardless of whether I stay or go, the OWs win. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Negative on that one. I keep reminding myself and others of what Dr. Phil said at the end of his show on infidelity: :"Remember, the best revenge is living well". You win! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, P, once again it appears that we're in the same boat, paddling furiously but going nowhere. It feels so bizarre to have these feelings for my wife that I've never had before. Like you, I wonder how long I can go on. The love that blazed inside of me for 30 years is now but a flicker. Most of the time I just feel nothing, wondering what happened to the amazing person I married. And in spite of seeing my pain and hearing my pleas for truth and honesty and respect for my feelings, the lies and deceit continue, and I am gradually beginning to realize that it may not be possible to live with a person who would mistreat me so.

Hey, sorry about that. Didn't mean to go on about me so much - probably time to post my own update. P, you are doing and have done everything you possibly can. I don't know if anything will snap your husband out of it. It doesn't sound like you have a whole lot of options left, other than to wait this thing out longer and see if he comes around.

He may need some stronger medicine, though. Are there any men at your church, his friends, who you would trust to confront your husband in love with all of this, to counsel him, pray with him, try to lead him to a place where he can forgive himself, and maybe finally come to accept the grace you've tried to extend to him? The result could go either way, but you probably wouldn't be any worse off than you are now.

Like you, I have protected everyone with my silence. But there may come a time when, as a last resort, we have to enlist the aid of others. I knew the solo act was gonna be tough, but the uniqueness of our situation demanded that I try.

You've been so strong throughout your trial, P, and you've shown your husband what real love is all about, even if he can't recognize it as such. If you've come to a point where you think there's nothing left to try, you may have to break your silence and see if someone else can get through to him.

I'll continue to pray for you and I know that God will honor whatever decision you make. I'm really proud of you and your efforts to save your marriage. I pray your husband can also say that to you one day. Take care.

My dear Persevering,

What is he doing? Hardening his heart because he fell again? Is he happy now? Does he feel he needs to be miserable?

You know my H is basically a grumpy kinda guy. He can be fun but he chooses to be grumpy. Well that piece of him needed to change. I'd much rather he go be grumpy with an OW than with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Of course PBR is a piece of art herself when she PMS' (like now but that's another story - LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

I told my H that between the 2 of us, one of us had to be happy if the other was going to be miserable. If I had a gun, I would have shot his foot and said "DANCE - dumnit!" LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Just kidding.

Something seemed to turn in his life or has this been a thing creeping up? You have been here a while and really really don't think you have slipped in your MB ways, right? So work on what you know you should be really, don't take the blame unless you know you should.

Come'on he knows this stuff too. He used to post to before, right? You know I think back when SNL used to post and I get sad. Soo sad.

Let your H know that his happiness is important. Ranks right up there with Persevering's happiness. ok? Remember it takes more muscles to frown than smile. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

(((((((S-in-SF)))))) Wow. Couldn't have said it better myself. But I wish you didn't have to go through it to understand and express it so succinctly.

Hi, Orchid. Actually, H only posted once, shortly after dday #2, and on Valentine's Day at that. It was a great present, at the time. You know, our D's and I are probably the only ones who would consider H to be grumpy, I guess because he is able to let his guard down at least a little when at home. That is a good thing, I guess, but I'm tired of his dark cloud hanging over the rest of us. When I think about it, I can't remember the last time he seemed truly "happy." For awhile, it was his job, then his other job (while the A's were beginning to eat away at him, too, and I was still clueless), now it's this, and his job, and $... I think he's basically just a depressed, negative person, although he doesn't want to appear that way to anyone. He has always said that I'm just like my mother--who is very negative. But how much more optimistic can I get than still hanging in here after this long, with little help or input from him? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

This month will be a busy one, anyway, with holiday activities. But my brother was in a serious car accident yesterday which will also consume a lot of our time and energies, traveling to see him (65 miles--sometimes too close, sometimes too far, depending on the situation). "Us" will make it through the holidays and early part of next year, then I'll reevaluate.

Thanks to everyone for their support.

Hi Perservering!
Two things come to mind when I read through this thread....
1. I went through a lot of emotions as the BS...all of them over and over again..you know them all, rage, pity, fear blah, blah, blah. But when I finally started to absorb all the positive that I was getting from the books and from counseling and be the wife I should be and no more LB I was left with resentment. I resented a lot of things. The hows and whys of the A's (there have been 3)happening in the first place, and how hard things had been etc. Anyway, resentment seemed to be the last hurdle for me. I have to push it out of my mind because it only causes me harm.
The second thing I think of is this quote I read early in my recovery....and it shows how damaging resentment is!
RESENTMENT IS LIKE DRINKING POISON AND WAITING FOR THE OTHER PERSON TO DIE.
That is the best definition for me. It makes sense right there in that sentence. If I am resentful I am only hurting myself with all the emotions I tried so hard to get rid of. It's not always easy. But worth the effort!!
Take Care

You've given me a lot to think about, Survivor. Yes, it seems like this resentment is the last hurdle. It's what I struggled with the most and finally came to grips with, last spring. Then dday #3 sent me spiraling back who knows how far. Even I don't really know where I am now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I have heard that quote before and tried to apply it. I know I'm the only one it's hurting. But I don't know that I wish for H or the OWs to "die" or for anything even remotely bad to happen to them. I'm just p***** that I have put forth the effort that I have, only to be left with...well, everything still lingering there. Meanwhile, H and OWs go about their lives, make no apparent changes, face virtually no consequences. They are the ones who made the choice, and I'm the one who gets stuck with the baggage.

Oops, little vent there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> You did give me a lot to think about, and I thank you for that.

P,
Please don’t misunderstand this as I don’t want to blame the victim but sometimes we have to look inward. I know, I know, your H is a lug head, truly he is. He is the one who got himself into this mess, he is the one who made the awful decision(s) and continues to make some pretty stupid choices. He is the one who refuses to give even a minute a day (That one even pisses me off)

But still and all trade places for a moment. Wear his shoes for a day. It must be pretty disheartening to live with a woman who doesn’t love you (and you don’t P or at least you’ve forgotten that you do). It must make it hard to muster up the desire to hug or kiss someone who has you under a microscope looking for even the smallest of changes. Actually it must bolster his depression and he is more than likely a very lonely man who wants to go home but can’t find the way.

Do an exercise today P. Your H posted once, right? Today pretend you are him. Think of what you would post about your life and your relationship. Think about the vent post he would write to all of us if he were a regular around here. Then make it worse and think of what you would write in response to a WS who is living his life.

Through this journey we BS’s often learn what it takes to make a M thrive, we apply it until it becomes burdensome and when we don’t see the same in return our taker kicks in and we use our knowledge as a benchmark to judge our mate. Sometimes the things that could potentially help us the most actually turn out to do more harm if we’re not careful.

Am I blaming you? No, Am I blaming him? No. Today my finger is pointed at the both of you. You’re both lug heads, you’ve both made mistakes, you’re both stubborn, worst of all you both have a love for each other on some level but you’re both too darn proud, depressed or tired to have empathy for the other. Maybe this M is not meant to be, I don’t know the answer to that. But something has to bend.

I know it was a long time ago but do remember the rules, Protection and Care? We know he isn’t following them, but are you? Someone has to go first and someone has to continue until they decide unequivocally that it is over. If you’ve already made that decision, then it’s time to walk P. Don’t belabor the issue, don’t hold your breath waiting for a miraculous change. If you haven’t made that decision, put away the microscope and be his friend for a while.

And finally, please let go of the OW. They did not and cannot win! Unless or until they have been through some major personal changes you have more integrity and strength in you little finger then they have in their entire being.

P.S. I know of late you have not heard the easiest things from me. If you want me to bugger off, just say so, I’ll understand and respect that.

Oz

Sorry to hear about your brother - hope he'll make a full recovery. My oldest son was in a minor accident Thanksgiving night, but chose not to tell me about it until Monday. What's with all the secrets around me? Also, drove youngest back to college, he called next night and reported that he'd been to the ER for a collapsed lung. Are we having fun yet?? When it rains it pours!

Something you said in your last post really resonated with me, and is a big part of my/our current problem:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Meanwhile, H and OWs go about their lives, make no apparent changes, face virtually no consequences. They are the ones who made the choice, and I'm the one who gets stuck with the baggage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How true that is, although my wife did resign from a job she enjoyed and OM "retired" earlier than he wanted to. But lack of consequences, especially for OM, is part of why they are still talking to each other, even though OM moved a couple hours away. He's a serial cheater, and though he claims to be a "changed man" (pardon me while I gag), he's still the morally-deficient scumbag he's always been. And my wife likes her new church better, is happy, and moving on. And still secretly (or so she thinks) talking to OM.

I'm afraid that consequences may be necessary for either of them to come to their senses. Otherwise, they'll both think they dodged a major bullet and attribute their narrow escape to God's grace. But that grace is only possible as long as I'm strong enough to wait this thing out. I'm not as strong as I was six months ago, though. Something has to give, and pretty soon.

Hope the holiday season gets a little smoother for you in the days ahead.

I know P that you don't want anyone to literally die....neither do I. I think you just reminded me of my biggest resentment. You echo it in your post.....I sometimes resent that I was even put in this situation, and the rest of the world keeps on spinning and I feel like a heap 'o poo in the corner. H and OW go on like nothing ever happened ?? and silly me can't get my act together. It takes a lot of courage and desire to keep on going every day but it is getting easier and easier. As far as nobody else having to change or suffer consequences...I read this quote early in my recovery too. When you may question why me Lord? Why do I have to change?.....Because the first one to change is the first one free. I'm doing it for me first. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Perhaps Mr. P is need of anti-D therapy?

My Dad was always warm to everyone in the public eye, but terminally grumpy, negative, hardened and cold to everyone else at home. He's now on anti-d's and the change is amazing.

Sorry if this sounds overly simplistic, P. But it may help if this is part of your H's problem.

Maybe your H can't make any changes for the better because he's unable to from depression?

<small>[ December 04, 2002, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Leilana ]</small>

Hello P,

Just a question, but is that really the case that H and OW go along not making any changes, not facing the consequences? Now, I can't talk for all WS out there, but me, well yup I'm facing the reality and pain of what I did every single day. I too am trying desperately hard to figure out what I did and why and to make the necessary changes deep inside me - firstly for me, but secondly so that I can be true again to my H.

Has your H shown remorse, read the principles of MB or even looked at why he did what he did, or does he just deny it? Frankly, and I know this is probably not very MB, but I'd kick his bum soundly, if after 2 years, he's doing absolutely nothing to either face up to himself or you. And OW, well, who cares about what she is or isn't doing - don't let her eat away at you.

I know some posts I read on here make me want to curl up and crawl back under the stone from where I came, but not all WS are the same. Some of us do try hard, and wish that we had BS's like the people here. But, surely if after 2 years, your H is doing/has done nothing to address these issues, this is fundamental to your R and you should tell him that's what he needs to do before anything else?

Sorry, I'm probably rambling, but sometimes I get angry with WS even though I was one, wishing my H would stick by me and give me a chance.

Wishing you well from London.

Lisa

Hey, oz (said as I crawl out from under the table). You know, you are really a true friend--one who can get away with telling you the tough stuff that you might not want to hear simply because they have proven that they have your best interests at heart and that they will love you anyway. I can't accuse you of simply not understanding my particular situation, because I know you do. You've been here, as I recall. I have printed out your response and plan to laminate it to the backside of a paddle (or should I use a flyswatter? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) to use when necessary. You are gold, pal. Don't you ever bug off.

S-in-SF, I didn't realize W was still talking to OM, thinking you don't know. Oh, how I empathize! And I know kids--and other "life" stuff--continue to get in the way. But I was thinking, with my bro's accident, that maybe these distractions are a good thing. I know I definitely tend to focus too long and hard on "us." H went to the hospital with me and spent the evening with my dad and stepmom, mom and stepdad, bro's ex-W and his now ex-girlfriend (who are now the she-devils as far as my parents are concerned). What a menagerie! But everyone was pleasantly civil to each other. I was thankful that H was with me. Like oz said, I've got to get rid of that ol' magnifying glass that only picks up what he's not doing. As my mother is a world-class pessimist and I try to point out to her the positive things, I need to start doing the same for me and H. I hope you'll post an update soon, SSF. I'd really like to know what's been going on. In the meantime, I'll keep you in my prayers.

Hi, Survivor. "The first one to change is the first one free." I'll have to laminate that to the other side of my oz-inspired paddle. Thank you for the wise words. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi, L. How much longer are the folks going to be visiting? How are things going with you? I'm ready for an update from you, too. H was on antideps very briefly during our first counseling stint. But he took himself off of them, after the first round of prescription, even enduring physical withdrawal. I could tell at least a slight improvement, even if it was some kind of placebo effect on me, and feel that he didn't give the meds enough of a chance. But they cost $, you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I doubt very seriously that he will ever consider that a viable option. Of course, I also said he would never go to another counselor and had to eat my words. I think he would definitely benefit, if he would give it a try--and give it enough time.

Hi, Lisa. I sometimes forget that there are sincerely committed WSs on here. It is really brave of you to be here in the first place and to be willing to reach out to us struggling BSs. I appreciate your insight very much. And oswald definitely reminded me of the other side of my little saga. Now if I can just remember to remember.

Bro will be having surgery tomorrow. He was hit head-on, jamming his leg into his hip socket. It's a miracle he survived, much less with no greater injuries, although even the doctor said that the odds of successfully reconstructing that hip socket are about 1 in 3. Yes, this is the same bro I was belly-aching about a few weeks ago. But he is my bro and I do love him. We've never been very close, but I was one of the few people he called by name yesterday.

I'll check in next week. I love you guys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Persevering:
<strong>Yes, this is the same bro I was belly-aching about a few weeks ago. But he is my bro and I do love him.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was thinking about how I could also apply this to H. I have no choice as to whether or not my bro keeps being my bro, just as I have no control over any stupid choices he might make. But I do have a choice as to whether or not to stay in this M. Or do I? I did enter into a covenant, although God allows a way out due to the "hardening of our hearts" (that's even in scripture, and to say that both H and my hearts have been hardened would be an understatement). But nursebetty's post over on In Recovery reminded me that part of my hardness is a protective shell, formed out of fear of being duped again. It's happened before when I started to accept (soften). Hmmmmmm. Thoughts?

Persevering: All I know about revealing H to church member is it drove mine to never attend that church again and it took a long time to get him into another one. so think on this one before you go to anyone unless you can just do counseling with your Pastor for yourself. How long does it take? For some, a short time, for others, it never goes away. I dealt with first one, by repressing for 18 yrs. That was a horrible mistake as it finally put me into deep depression leading to 5 yrs of misery and another A on his part. It effects ones physical health badly. I'm over a year into trying to recover from the second one. There will always be triggers and for me, it's going to be a day to day thing of trying to heal. It's going to take seeing sincerity day after day and maybe forever. Yesterday on Dr. Phil, I was a book of his recommended that might be good for me, and others. It's titled "Self Matters" and I think we all need to rebuild self esteem after something like this. Hope you can get it and see if it helps. The best revenge is living well and being happy in spite of!We have to know our worth and that comes from inside us. God bless, LouLou