Hi Lisa,

I hope you are home with something hot in your hands and well wrapped up! It's cold and nasty here in Kent, and like you said, I also wish it would snow - its when its grey and dripping cold and bleakly grey that it gets wearisome!

Sounds like you have had another exhausting day - but perhaps what happened will help further some understanding of the "dance" that is going on between you both. Mayve there are clues in there that could be illuminating. Some of the things you said yesterday and today caught my eye. I'm not sure anything I say will be appropriate and I'm also aware that I don't want to project my own set of problems into your relationship, but like I said, a couple of things have caught my eye.

First, yesterday, you started your post by saying "Well, I tried to do everything right", and then you listed all the things you had done to help him make the move. I know that you are trying to do a good "plan A", and that you still feel guilty about the A, and are trying to do everything you can to be loving towards him, but this still caught my eye. Was that all that it was - post-affair effort, or has it always been this way? Do you feel the need to make the effort to try to do everything right in order to please him? You have said that your R has at times been up and down, even before the A. Have you always felt that you have to work hard at pleasing him?

We took the last things into the flat, and he laid down a rug, which he had put in the machine to wash before he left and I had dried out overnight for him. I went to walk across it and he said "Don't walk on the rug Lisa". DUH, like, where am I meant to walk, the room isn't that big? I just said "For goodness sake H". He said again, "Don't walk across the rug, I've just spent hours cleaning it". I said "For goodness sake H". He said "For goodness sake what, why don't you just f**k off". I politely reminded him, that he had put the rug in my washing machine, and I had dried it, I had wiped my feet before coming in, and did a little bit of mud really matter in the wider scale of things? I told him to F Off himself and said I would wait outside in the car.

OK, so things got a little heated here and swearing is definitely a LB, but lets look at the dynamics here. First of all, he gave you an order - "Don't walk on the rug, Lisa." Point blank. Not a request. An order. Is that usual for him?
You said "For goodness sake H." Was it that you were upset at being ordered not to walk on the rug, AND that he was being unreasonable since there doesn't seem to have been much of a choice (rug covered all available floor space - what are rugs for anyway?).
He doesn't like you resisting him giving you an order - and when you resist again, he tells you to f-off.
He says "I just spent hours cleaning that rug."
Uhhh- sounds like he shoved it in your washing machine, and if I know England, it was you that spent hours turning it over and over on top of the radiator to dry it. Or drying it in the dryer and checking every hour and turning it on again if it wasn't dry. So he didn't take hours cleaning the rug at all - you did. It was good that you reminded him of that. OK, so you then told him to f-off, but you did the right thing - you left and went to wait in the car.

My question - is this "normal" in your R - even before the A? It sounds like it is. It sounds like it happened without either of you having any time to think about it - part and parcel of his normal behaviour. You then go on...

When he came out, I said, "Have I got doormat stamped on my forehead?", and he said "I really don't know what you mean, you've done me a couple of favours". A COUPLE OF FAVOURS!!!! I said, I think I've done more than a couple of favours and he said "Well, actually you're begining to get on my nerves, asking me if I'd like to come round for dinner, I don't want to". The ungratefgul git, so I said "Actually, I put myself out for you completely, I helped you move, I bought you things you needed, I lent you my car overnight even though I needed it myself, and I didn't even want you to move out. I think that's a lot more than a couple of favours". At this point, I think he realised what a pillock he was being. Do you know, I thought, this is what I DON'T like about H - don't walk on the rug, like I'm a child who has stomped mud through the place, then the verbals, you did a few things, you're getting on my nerves, all because I said, "If you'd like to come round for dinner later, given that you've had a lot on and might not feel like cooking, you'd be welcome" Hardly, being pushy. I was then actually teasing him about it.

You say - this is what I DON'T like about H - the giving you an order like you are a child, then the verbals, "you're getting on my nerves", twisting your considerate invitation into something that sounds like you are trying to pressure him.

He apologised and said he knew I'd done an awful lot for him, but it wasn't easy for him either. He told me that he had missed me last night, and when I said, "Why were you all over me, what was that about" he said "You're a very attractive woman Lisa". I know I shouldn't be cross, but I feel hurt - this is H belittling me - memories of old.

What do you mean - memories of old? Belittling you - it sounds like he paid you a compliment, but it also sounds like you have a past history here with him complimenting you on your appearance - why do you say that he is belittling you? Has he used your appearance as another arena to criticize you?

Anyway, we left on a fairly positive note, and he said we'd go out on Tuesday and he would pay for dinner to say thank you, but finished by saying "But I'll speak to you before then".
He left it up in the air, with the ball in his court - he has said he will call you, but not when. So he has left you hanging, wondering when he will call. Late tonight? Tomorrow morning? Tomorrow evening? He is now in control.

We all know that you feel terrible about the A, and yes, maybe some of his behaviour can be attributed to the normal WS feeling of having lost total control over his life, and wanting to take back some control over his own life. But we also know that you have worked hard at making reconciliation possible - you are the one who is best able to list all the things you have done to try to create a climate for healing, but he has not taken any of those opportunities, including going to MC. All of us here, I think, accept that while affairs cannot be justified, they are most often a symptom of something wrong in the R to begin with.

Perhaps because of the intensity of these last few months since his return, you have not been able to get too much into the root causes of the problems in your R that were always there, long before the A. And you have been so overwhelmed with dealing with the guilt that you have not been able to disassociate his behaviour in reaction to the affair, with his behaviour which was normal for him before the A.

Perhaps one of the positive things about him moving out is that that process may become easier. I would say, do not let yourself be sucked into accepting being treated badly out of feeling guilty about the A. Yes, you had an A - that does not justify him being abusive towards you. And it looks to me like there are old patterns going on in the encounters you described above. Maybe he won't go to MC because he does not want to put your M under scrutiny. Putting your M under the scrutiny of a MC would expose these abusive patterns of behaviour.

I think now that the A is over and some time has past, you may be able to see some of these things more clearly.

I wonder what reasons you have always given to explain why he behaves this way? Its a good question to ask oneself.

I do hope you manage to get out some - maybe not for a few days yet, but don't spend too many days alone - force yourself to go out if you have to, even if its just to have coffee by yourself in a cafe. And I hope you hear from your mum soon.

Take care,
LIR

<small>[ December 08, 2002, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I don't have long now but wanted to just say a quick thank you to Neesha and LIR. LIR there are quite a few things you say that I would like to respond to.

Neesha, you are right, am absolutely whacked out, and both H and I need to take time for ourselves. I am a firm believer in being able to look after and care for yourself before you can put yourself wholeheartedly into a R - you need to like yourself, and frankly I don't really like me terribly much. I also know what you mean about being cocooned in negative personas - me guilty and sorry, then defensive because H gets angry and hurt. I do hope that can change.

Anyway, I'm not too bad this morning but have to rush out for work. As I say, I'll be back later.

BTW, I heard from Mum last night. She didn't get either of my messages, and was upset to hear I had been trying to get hold of her. Anyway, fingers crossed she will actually move in today. My brother is there now.

Lisa

Hey Lisa, seems like you were tired out over the weekend, make sure you get enough beauty sleep this week <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Actually taking a broader perspective on what you have written there's a couple of points I'd like to suggest:

1) Your H has no plan regarding this move out. It is a totally reactionary move. This means it's likely to be awful for him and more importantly short. It's the fight/flight model.

2) His implied but perhaps unspoken words are "I want to recover my M but I have been hurt, I need some time to process this information but I do love you even though I may not say it". This is borne out by his physical desire and his inability to stick to what he has told you about contact. You will find he can't keep away. My WS never understood this one, make sure you do.

3) You need to Plan A and take care of Lisa.

4) You need to Plan A and take care of Lisa.

5) It's gonna take time, and I mean more months not days or weeks, start saying that to yourself so that your mindset becomes it. Any earlier is a bonus. With that knowledge take time to rest and like yourself.

6) Finally u need to Plan A and take care of Lisa <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Best Wishes Neil.

agree v much with neil's point #2... looks like your husband doesnt really want to move out, but feels compelled to do so; either because of a male macho thing in that he thinks that's what's needed (despite him suffering even more in the process), or, maybe he's emotionally so screwed that he definately needs a safe place where he can gaze into the fire and process all this.

Good morning everybody, and first, thanks for the messages of support.

Nick, H is emotionally wrecked - I don't think it's about being macho, because he isn't like that. I do think it's about a fear of letting go though. I think he does need to process things through for himself.

Neil, are you suggesting I should Plan A and take care of Lisa <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I do feel in desperate need of some rest and relaxation. I could sleep and sleep at the moment, but not as I was before in a depressed way, just because I am so tired. I would like to believe that he won't be able to keep away, but all contact (in the very short time to date), has been made by me. Given that he got cross with me because he said I was "getting on his nerves" because I asked him round for dinner, for the first time ever, I am finding it difficult to know whether or not to contact him.

Last night, I wanted to let him know that Mum had finally moved in (HURRAH!!), but felt awkward calling him as he wants his space. I sent him a text, and he did respond. Has anyone got any suggestions on this - do I tend to ignore what he says and call him as usual, or will this wind him up? I am glad you see some positives in his behaviour, and hopefully it is a time and processing thing. His lease is for six months, so I assume that he would not make any decisions before then.

LIR - you said some very interesting things. I had to laugh about the damn rug, because you were soooo right. All day and evening I tured that rug over and over on the radiator, because it was too big for the dryer!!!!

My brother made an interesting comment (him usually with little or no words), he said, "Lisa, don't let him manipulate you, because he can do that". I don't know if that was a bit of manipulation on Sunday or whether he was trying to control the situation rather than me. I have to be honest and I thought about this quite hard. I think both H and I are strong personalities - H refers to me as being "wilful". I think it is a family trait. I do believe that in the early days of our relationship, I so wanted to do everyting for H and have him love me so overwhelmingly in return and he just didn't. Yeah, he loved me, but even after we had been living together for a year, he once said about his XW "You wouldn't understand, she's the only family I've got". This a man with 2 children, 4 siblings, numerous nieces/nephews and a mum. Plus he was living with me. This was typical of his reserve and holding back - during the early days. So I proteceted myself, and as he changed, I used my "opt out, hold back 25% card". As time progressed, there was no reason for me not to believe that H loved me totally, but I held back, and with that we both struggled for control and power. H believes I am very powerful within our M, although I think he is certainly not henpecked, nor is he down-trodden. Do I believe that we still have a power struggle -yes. But with H going to Germany, of course this became less apparent, but we both became more independent, particularly me.

I think my sort of Plan A behaviour is because I have not treated H well. One of the things he said to me recently, is that he does not want to be second best anymore (not in relation to OM), but in relation to the way I treat him. Do you remember the case where my friend turned up and I was really pleased to see him, but gave H short shrift? This is what he means, and yes, I am guilty of this. I have become complacent, and whatever, I don't want to be like that towards him anymore. I find it hard to keep up, particularly when he behaves like he did.

I think the flow of my thread was not very good. It wasn't about the compliment, it was about the situation that I thought "this is H of old". I was glad for the compliment, but somewhat bemused by his behaviour. I think I have to trust Neil on this that the conflicting behaviour is a struggle with him really wanting to be here. I think the whole "rug" scenario is about what I think of H as "being critical and picky". When H used to come in, the first thing he used to do was re-tidy the curtain and straighten the mat. He came home once from Germany and started moaning about how bad my cleaner was, and I should get rid of her and she didn't do a good job - irrespective of the fact that I trust her, I think she does a good job, and I pay her.

H says that I cannot accept any comment which is against my own, "You cannot be told". If he offers me an alternative, he says I just don't like it. Anyway, I think I'm rambling, and not sure where this is going.

Finally, I am not sure why he is so opposed to MC, given that he is really quite supportive of C in general and believes in it. Yes, it may put our M under scrutiny, but I will keep trying. I am going to try and get a session with Relate in the new year, but keep with my IC for now.

Anyway, I have gone on for too long, and need to get some work done. Mum did move in but not until 5.30pm - another mess up by the Solicitor down the chain, and then she had her handbag stolen somewhere. My brother is there now. H and I are going out tonight. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I feel so worn down/worn out, and unsure of how to behave in this situation it will be a challenge.

Thanks again everyone.

Lisa

I think we just had the worst possible first get together.

H was defensive and cross. I did a couple of things - washed his clothes that were still here etc., commented on that he is not wearing his wedding ring, joked (and I mean joked) that he went out last night and I didn't know and that hurt. H got aggravated and cross. He does not want me to do anything ("actually", he said, "you are irritated me with all this trying to do stuff"). I told H I did not want to go out with him as he was upsetting me and surely he could "cut me some slack" as I did not know what to say or how to behave. He actually said he thought I would have called last night, although I only sent a txt message.

We got over this, went out, and in the restaurant H suddenly said "Let's go, I'm not sitting here with this silence". I politely told him that given, the ealier upset and we were both unsure of how to behave, things were going relatively well and a bit of silence was nothing.

H had driven my car, and I said you can drop yourself off and I will drive home. He kept saying, oh don't worry I'll drop the car off in the morning, and then finally admitted "Well, it saves me some time in the morning to do that"!!!!!!

I feel:

Used - H wants me to use the car etc. to make his life easier

Single - H is not wearing his wedding ring, is going out to see people and I don't know, and not wanting to have any talk about our R or anyting other than waffle.

Unsure - How do I proceed with this? My best efforts at Plan A are "irritating". H does not want me to do anything for him, but I feel if this carries on we will just drift apart.

I am angry with him tonight. If he wants to use my car or have a lift to the airport that's alright, but I can't wash his bloody jumper or comment on the fact he went out without getting agro. This is surely not what it is about. I have done everything, bent over backwards to make amends for me poor behaviour and seriously lacking judgement. I am remorseful beyond belief, but he can now just treat me as he wants because "Well, we don't live together anymore and you have to get used to that" and that is a QUOTE.

Vent over, sorry, but am angry, upset and not sure how I can proceed with this.

Lisa

But he didn't screw around, you did.
Ever heard the word empathy ?
Go look it up.

Well, maybe he did - he slept with someone else, so how do I know?

You may think you are older and wiser, but you in my book you are just stupid. Get a life, and get off my thread.

Lisa

Lisa please disregard the poster with the 'unconstructive' advise. He's not worth your time and attention.

I'd like to recommend you read the following statement from Dr Willard Harley Jr regarding overcoming resentment (I hope it helps):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse.

I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.

Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Thanks Coffee Man - I just read Older and Stupider's comment. In all my time here, everyone who has posted to me knows my deep regret, remorse and attempts to reconstruct myself and my M.

You always pop in at the right time with support and much appreciated insight. I always appreciate when you come by and help me out.

Thank you again Coffee Man.
Lisa

Hi Lisa,
I am a new member and I have just picked up your thread. I really hope things go the right way for you and your H. If there is a big chance of you making a go of your M perhaps time and space is the answer, who knows at the moment?

I/We are in recovery after my WS started seeing an old school friend (also married, once divorced) he wanted an affair and I know my wife was tempted.I still have my doubts and I hurt constantly when I am not with her. I am searching for an answer and I am learning alot about myself. I was alot to blame as I hurt my wife in many ways and made her vunerable to someone who was nice to her. She admits it takes two to make a M rocky!
We are making slow but forward progress, we have 2 young daughters too, they saved her from walking out and asking for a divorce.
I wish you both luck and I am heartened to see your written emotions, you are brave.

I hope that what you both truly want goes your way.

xx

Hello Smudger

Welcome to MB and thanks for your words of support. I feel for you too and the confusion you face. Have you posted here yet? You would get a lot of good advice and support because people out there are incredibly helpful. The Surviving an Affair book is very good (I ordered it from Amazon), although His Needs Her Needs was a little too "Yank" for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I appreciate that you as the BS can support me as the FWS, because the way my H treats me sometimes, I don't feel brave, I think I must be doing it all wrong and how do I go forward. I think the next few months will be tricky because I'm trying and he doesn't want to. I don't want to get hurt if he then turns round and says "sorry, no can do". I'm struggling with this.

Coffee Man - thanks for that piece. I remember reading that, and although H doesn't use the A against me per se, he is clearly resentful of the whole situation. The other day before he moved out he said "Well, it was only you that started this whole chain of misery back in February Lisa". It's comments like that which are hard. The problem is, right now, if I told him take it or leave it, he'd say leave it because he is emotionally wrecked.

Anyway, thanks for jumping in last night. I was very upset by that post. I might ask if the Moderators can remove it, because it is pretty offensive to me.

Lisa

Don&#8217;t worry about the other w@nk&#8364;r's comment - all told, the level of contributions here is always very high and serious, so the odd one-off isn't important at all.

You wrote you feel used, single and unsure:

<strong>
Used - H wants me to use the car etc. to make his life easier

Single - H is not wearing his wedding ring, is going out to see people and I don't know, and not wanting to have any talk about our R or anyting other than waffle.

Unsure - How do I proceed with this? My best efforts at Plan A are "irritating". H does not want me to do anything for him, but I feel if this carries on we will just drift apart
</strong>

1. Used: You look like you are emotionally stronger than your husband. If it is your aspiration to 'make it good' or to 'work it out', then you should expect to pay into the bank account before you can make any withdrawals. Help him! You should actually feel good about doing so. Don&#8217;t expect an instant pay back.
2. Single - that's more serious. Does he know how sad you are that he is not wearing the wedding band? Sometimes the timing for R-talk is simply wrong - but I'd let him know that you have still hope, that's why you are still carrying the ring.
3. Unsure - you know, I'm exactly in the same situation here with my good intentions being constantly rejected, and knowing that the status quo will lead to a divorce, for sure. Guess you should hang in for another while - maybe with a time limit? :-) Seriously - how are you feeling? Got the stomach for another while of plan A? If not, cut the contact and think about writing a letter to that effect.

Nick, from sunny south london (not)

Hi Lisa,
Just wanted to let you know I've been reading your thread. I've been home with a flu bug, so yesterday I responded on 'my' thread basically as it had been a while and I felt I needed to do that right away!

Anyway, I am so sad for you right now. I know that for you and me we are in different places completely as far as our marriages are concerned. I know that there's still a lot of hope for your R. Just do as the other wise people here are saying to do, and plan A your husband.

In some ways your spouse sounds like my exH in that he likes to rattle things at you, when he's upset. My exH has safely cocooned himself in his little apartment (per my suggestion, yes, before DDAy), away from any emotional closeness from anyone. I think that is how he likes it, and I understand it completely. I devastated him to the core. You and I both feel the same about what we did, as does our pal Kily here, too. If you are anything like me, I know you find it hard at times to look in the mirror and live with what you did.

I know this is rattling on and on here, but just know that I am thinking of you. I wish I had some good 'advice' to offer, but I don't.

Take care and God bless,
H_P

You are most welcome Lisa. You have more than proven yourself worthy of respect from your H. He needs to realize that his behavior is unacceptable and is only killing the love you have for him. Maybe it might not be such a bad idea for you to not be so available to him until he starts showing you some respect. Remember that there can be no Love without Respect.

And regarding the imbecile that posted his vile comments to you yesterday, I would say the best thing to do is not to respond to his kind because that is exactly what they want. I know it's not easy but if he sees that nobody cares to respond to his asinine posts, maybe he'll see that he's just wasting his time writting them to begin with.

Lisa, as always I wish you the very best and to always remember that you ARE a good person that is worthy of love AND respect.

<small>[ December 11, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Dear Lisa,

Sorry I haven't been able to post to you these last couple of days - I have been able to catch up with reading your posts, just not able to post back. What a jerk that person was. How rude, as JaJaBinks is so fond of saying in Star Wars: The Phantom Menace! My two boys are currently into all the old Star Wars videos! Just ignore it - I thought you dealt with it well.

I think Nick and your other supporters have very good advice for you, and I'm not sure what else I can say. I think your brother's comment is very telling. It is difficult to see oneself what others can sometimes see very clearly. I think that is one of the values of a forum like this, if the forum is used properly. This forum acts as kind of an internet group therapy. And having participated in group therapy at one time in my life, a group works well because the participants can often see the dynamics in the others' lives, while being blinded to them in their own. They are too close to their own problems, but can see them in others, and by talking with each other, they help lead each other to healthier ways of relating - but first they have to overcome their own self-imposed blindness.

One of the things that stuck out at me in your post about your last encounter with your H, was his rejection and criticism of you.

You have done things to help him - wash his clothes, etc. But he has now let you know that he doesn't like you doing these things for him.
In one way, you could say - you are trying to meet his EN's by taking care of him - this is a feminine and wifely way to relate to him - you are, in a way, trying to fulfill the role of wife - homemaker and caregiver. But he is now rejecting you doing this for him - he says its getting on his nerves, he got aggravated and irritatd. So he is saying, this is not how I want my EN's met right now. What he does do is come on to you physically. He wants his EN's met by you having sex with him and reaffirming your attraction to him as a man, not by you taking care of his home needs.

OK - so there's nothing unusual about that, and we know he's hurt and confused and feeling rejected as a man, so its natural, in a way, for him to embark on this course emotionally.

But I sense a need for control in him, and criticism of you. Whatever you do for him is not good enough and not what he wants. The TXT msg is a perfect example. He left you up in the air the last time you met - left it that he would call YOU. You don't want to be pushy and appear needy, so you don't call, you TXT msg - but when he sees you next, he lets you know that that wasn't good enough for him - he actually wanted you to call. What is really going on here?

Why is he needing to make you feel bad? It looks like he is either punishing you by manipulating you into feeling guilty and bad about everything nice that you try to do for him. Or...has he always been this way? Is this just normal behaviour for him?

What you said about him staying in touch with xW because "she's all the family I've got" is a little wierd, given the number of family members you listed. MY H really doesn't have family - he has one brother, and one grown-up nephew, and his aging abusive parents. No aunts or uncles or cousins. Hence my H's strange attachment to other families - I think other families are almost as big an attraction to my H as other women. I am just hoping his counselling will help him with this. Anyway, that's a tangent and belongs on my thread.

I think your brother is right and you need to watch how your H manipulates you into feeling bad and guilty - this deeply affects your own self-esteem - if it makes you mad to be treated like that, be mad - that's healthy!

Have to go now, but take care.

<small>[ December 12, 2002, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi Lisa,
Thanks for replying to my post, and thanks for your empathy and advice on books to read.

I am of the opinion that hurt is something that will never really go away, ever. It will always be there no matter what.... but you can control it in time. If we are lucky enough to get an opportunity to give a relationship another chance that is a life line, and it will be hard work getting up that first mountain. Then hopefully they become hills then bumps!
No one expects a crisis in their M ,especially on the day you did get married. Only last night my W and I both said to each other we never expected marriage to be so hard, but after our crisis this year we are giving it a "good stab" (my wifes quote).
My wife has started to show more affection to me, which I know has been hard work for her. I cannot take that for granted yet I have a strange feeling about me. I like the affection and attention but I want to be the one now pulling back and keeping my dignity (right word ? maybe?).
She has yet to tell me that she loves me to my face, my xmas card from her says so but I want to hear the words.She too I guess is holding back from getting hurt.
I guess what I am trying to say to you is that in this scambled mess we find ourselves in, no path runs a straight course. Feelings may change, memories of the bad times and hurt shared will be there but you must try and control them. Consider one to one with a marriage guidance counsellor (I did and it helped) and learn to talk about and control your fears...You will hurt but Lisa you are brave and you will recover whatever happens.

Be strong and take care

Smudger xx

ps I did post a thread in Infedelity/Recovery called "I thought I knew who he was",since I posted it I have found the true answer.

Good morning everybody, and thank you all for stopping by with your thoughts and support.

As ever, I'll look at the posts in reverse.

Smudger, it was good to see you again. I think you said so well about whether the hurt ever really goes. I think H is having a terrible time with that, and I know that when H has hurt me in the past (certain things), I can still remember it now - so how must HE feel after what I have put him through? I know it will take a huge amount of time and effort from me and him to even start to rebuild. I understand too what you say about your W - I stopped telling H, because he got so angry with me because he said "Don't tell me that you love and care for me because you don't otherwise you would never have done what you did". I did love and care for him, but not enough..... My friend said to me the other day "When you first start out together, you have such high hopes, such love and you think that it will always be wonderful". She is right, as are you, we don't expect crisis, and I so wish I could turn the clock back. Be happy though that you and your W are working together - it's a real struggle when one doesn't want to.

LIR, thank you for coming back. I so appreciate what you say.

"Why is he needing to make you feel bad? It looks like he is either punishing you by manipulating you into feeling guilty and bad about everything nice that you try to do for him. Or...has he always been this way? Is this just normal behaviour for him? "

Interesting questions. I don't know, and this links in to what Coffee Man was saying about earning respect. It feels like he just doesn't respect me or what I try to do for him. It feels like he just wants to keep me at arms length, but if he wants something that's OK. Is he manipulative, has he always been like this? Sometimes I think he has, and I think that is all caught up with the issue of power in our R. H always thinks I get what I want when I want. He thinks that I ask for advice, but then don't take it. Funnily enough, I've used so much of the advice from this site it's untrue!!

OK, honestly, I have always been a fairly dominant and strong charater. I think that comes from my Mum! But is H a wilting violet - DUH NO!!!! H is vibrant, strong, intelligent, insightful - why does he think I get the upper hand all the time? Back to the original point, yes to a certain extent I think he has struggled with what he perceives to be my power, and yes, I think partly he can take some control now. I also think he just wants away from it all for the time being - as he said "I don't want to talk about IT" - well me neither.

I think what is interesting is that you and Coffee Man clearly see that H is behaving in a certain way towards me. Even Nick touched on that too. I think this group therapy forum thingy has helped me immensely. I know I have many supportive friends and family, but MB has saved me many times from tipping over the edge.

"He needs to realize that his behavior is unacceptable and is only killing the love you have for him. Maybe it might not be such a bad idea for you to not be so available to him until he starts showing you some respect."

You know Coffee Man, my Mum said pretty much the same thing to me. I feel almost like a puppy, you know, over eager to please, jumping up and down to get attention etc. I think this is a very difficult and crucial time in this whole process, how much do I pull back without letting him or me go? Clearly what I have been doing is not appreciated or wanted. So what do I do? Act as his personal taxi company? Chase after him and make myself feel worse? I think you are right, I need to review what I will or won't do.

"Lisa, as always I wish you the very best and to always remember that you ARE a good person that is worthy of love AND respect."

All I can say to this is thank you so very very much.

H_P - How are you feeling? I do hope you are feeling better. It's strange that our situations are quite similar now - both H's pulling away and not wanting to interact. I know your job is much harder than mine, but from your posts I sense your integrity, your will to do your best, your strength to keep trying, your hope! Yup, you, me Kily, we know, oh how we know. Thank you for taking the time to post to me.

Hey Nick, can you send some of that sun to North London please!! Didn't mind the cold, but cold and wet today.

Thanks for your thoughts. I guess I don't feel pleased to help because he is being so negative. Very interesting though, I decided not to contact him yesterday after the awful night, and thought he'd probably call me today to arrange for the airport on Friday. He phoned me last night!!!!! Very short call said "Just wanted to call to thank you for letting me use the car. I hope you found it OK, and I know you're going out tonight so have a great time, say hi to Tim and everyone for me" I nearly dropped off my chair.

It does make me sad that he's not wearing his ring. I think it is difficult for both of us to know how to act and what to say, but I think I just need to tell him, and then leave it. I can't keep pushing him, because I will push him away. I think when I take him to the airport I will say, "I do love you H, I am sorry if my efforts to show you that have been irritating. I just want to support you as best I can, and still hope that we can work things out. It does make me sad that you are not wearing your ring, but you must do what is best for you" Enough, no more.

Yeeees, what to do next? Well, I'm not doing the right thing for H, so there's no point in bashing my head on the brick wall. I told him last night I appreciated him calling, but actually, I can't keep ringing and trying to do things for him. I think I need to hold back whilst he is in Germany, wait for Christmas and just try and have a really good time with him. I'm not giving up, but perhaps need to refocus on me for a little while and give H the space he wants.

I am sorry this is such a long past, and congrats to everyone who gets to the end!!!!

I know I always say it, but I do truly appreciate everyone's support and advice. My MB Superstars!

Lisa

You know Lisa there's an interesting little quote somewhere on this board (I have a thing with quotes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and it's one I always remember. I can't remember who put it to me but I think it was dredthesilence. Anyway it goes:

"Just because someone doesn't show you love in the way YOU expect it doesn't mean they don't love you."

I think this is where your H is at. All this [censored] footing around with rings, moving out, call dont call is very much part of that. It's the searching about what to do next, its erratic behaviour because he has no focus, it's also to do with a failure to accept the reality of the situation, and perhaps in parts the A.

For you the focus should be yourself, your interaction with your H, no LBs, keep your mind and body in good shape, and relax thru this difficult emotional period. Yes draw back, thats a good way to do it but one in which you are controlling yourself so that outbursts do not occur (at least toward him directly anyway). He'll come back in my view.

Best Wishes Neil.

Good afternoon everyone.

Just back from the depths of Somerset - is it ever a looooong way. Anyway, Mum was very happy to see me and we sorted a lot out together, plus I made her take some time out to relax and enjoy herself, because it has been an exceptionally difficult time for her.

I took H to the airport on Friday, and when I first collected him he was all bubbly and bouncing after his night out with work. It took all my resolve not to ask if his colleague had been there, but I think not. Anyway, I just couldn't say anything to him, it felt wrong, it felt strange, and then his attitude changed - he got grumpy and odd. When he got out of the car he hugged me and kissed me and said "I'll speak to you later".

He did call later, and seemed very sad and said "I'll speak to you tomorrow", as if he needed me. When I did speak to him on Saturday, it was "I guess I'll speak to you soon". Neil, I appreciate your thoughts, but I do wonder what game this is. It seems that if I call, he's not bothered, if I don't say I'll call he is bothered, and I just don't know how to act. I can't even ask him for fear of him saying he doesn't want to talk about "it". I think Neil you are also right that I have to look after me. That doesn't mean ignoring him, but I don't think I can call everyday, because I'm doing OK, I speak to him, and his attitude swings so much, I'm usually left feeling upset and confused.

So, specific question folks, what things could/should I do to stay in touch with H without "irritating" him. Do I call every other day, or perhaps send a "newsy" text message? Do I offer to collect him at the airport? I really don't know.

On Friday night, I lay in bed at my Mum's crying - sobbing, heaving, because I was thinking about some of the things that people had said to me recently on the forum. I thought about Still Trying, whose name I don't even know, nor where he lives, and the fact that he and everyone else says nicer things to me and are more supportive than my H is, and that made me cry. I know I started the misery chain, but I have tried to put things right, and H is so all over the place, I don't know how long I can do this for. I think he definitely wants control here, not so much of me but the situation.

Thank you everyone.

Lisa