Phew, just caught before I leave to tackle the remaining Xmas shopping <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lisa in terms of contact it's a tough one. How do you get the measure of what is good contact whilst protecting yourself from being hurt? What is comfortable. You are intimating that everyday is too much. So how about going every other day? Or one day a call the next a text? I think anything is of value but the most important thing is consistency. You call when you say you are going to call next and you don't NOT call when you say you're gonna call.

In my view your H is still acting erratically in the manner of uncertainty and not accepting this. Sure he wants to be erratic with you. Its a way of outworking the anger at you and the frustration without saying "hey Lisa YOU really hurt me" over and over again. The confusion in him (if he was like me or most BS) is that he will be nice to you and be ok, then realise he has been hurt and become almost subconciously guarded and withdrawn, which in turn will be confusing and hurtful to you and start an argument. Spotting this is perhaps key to interaction with him and pull away from the conversation or topic. It would be useful to try and end telephone conversations nicely if they turn this way.

Yes I think you NEED to look after yourself, and do just that, otherwise you will frazzle and be no good for him when he does turn around. As for how long? Well you need to think about that... Did you book Relate or Steve H? I am not going to drop that one madam <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Neil.

Lisa,

I think it is time for another dose of medicine. So hold your nose, open you mouth, and say AWWWW! Here it is: TIME AND PATIENCE. See now was that so bad??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your H is in conflict, with himself. Until he gets that sorted out, you won't be able to guess where he will be emotionally. The secret here I think is for you to be consistent, and tolerant. Yup, this is nutty in some ways. But as others have pointed out, sometimes he feels OK,and then something triggers him. He wants your attention, and then he thinks he is consorting with the enemy. It will be awhile longer.

It is very clear that going to Germany is a big trigger for him. Just reread you comments about taking him to the airport. It was a bad choice for him to go back there so soon, in my opinion because it does trigger him. On the other hand maybe he will get tired of being down and finally move from conflict into reconcilliation.

So hang in there, don't let this stuff get to you so. He is struggling with himself and it really isn't about you. It is about him reacting to what you did. You cannot change that and he must come to accept that and himself.

So do focus on yourself, and be kind as often as you get the chance.

That is my best guess as to what to do.

God Bless,

JL

Lisa,

glad you are back safely.

I can't emphasise how much I agree with the other posters - it is about your Hs confusion within homself about what he should do, not you... so work on yourself absolutely.

But I also know about contact, how often etc questions as I have been through it many times myself.

I agree that you should always call when you say you are going to but I have found that by being a bit spontaneous helps me - and I believe my W - and yes, sometimes I call and there is not much in the way of connection from her end, other times we have a great chat. I email and call her when I feel I want to... but I always try and remind myself that it may not be the right time for her to respond - and that if she doesn't want to interact it is not my fault - or indeed hers: it's just the way it is and there is no good in pushing it.

Email - or texting is good because it is up to the other person as to when they reply. Just try not to read anything into if they don't respond straight away. yes, it could be that it isn't the right time emotionally for them, but equally they could be busy or offline.

So hang in and try not to get disheartened - it will take time.

Well, just another conversation that seemed to sway. YSD called tonight, and I thought I'd let H know I was back safely from Mum's and that I talked to YSD.

Everything was going fine, and then I mentioned that I had opened a bank statement of his by mistake. It truly was a mistake (I know I opened another bank letter recently), but I swear, I don't want to know about his finances or anything, it's not important. H was pretty huffy, and when I said, "I hope I haven't made you angry, it was a mistake", he said "Well, that's my private business now." That just made me mad, so I said "What do you mean private business", H says "I don't want this conversation, I'm going now". He then told me he was making arrangements for his post to be redelivered.

So, what I am learning by these interchanges between H and I?

1. H does not want me to know his "private" business
2. H is making a "statement" to the world that he is not married, because he has stopped wearing his wedding ring - since we married, he has never taken his ring off, never in bed, in the shower ever.
3. H does not want to have any communication of any meaning. Irrevelant stuff is fine, but talk about R or us (even indirectly), or anything other than the weather and he is not interested and distances himself.
4. H clearly doesn't know if he is coming or going, but frankly, the bottom line feels like he is going. I have deeper conversations and communications with friends. In all the time H was living at home, although it was incredibly hard, at least we just talked....

I went to IC tonight - Neil, yes, don't worry I still want to get to Relate or perhaps a call with Steve H, but she said to me "When you first started coming here, you talked about the new year as a marker, how do you feel about that now?" Actually, I feel the same. I can't do this. I would rather have no contact with H than worry constantly about what he's doing or who with, whether or not I should call him or whether this will irritate him, is he going to be nice to me or mean, does he want to work towards our future or not?

JL, I swear I took the medicine, but this is too difficult. I can't behave in a natural way, and also, I feel that I am witholding from him, and being less than honest. One thing I wanted to be after d-day was honest. I'd lied too much in the past, and honesty seemed to be key to me. I can't be honest with him. And he's lying to me - he lied about his wedding ring, he doesn't tell me "all the story" like he used to. If he'd said "Lisa, I just can't wear it at the moment" FINE - it would have hurt, but at least it would be truthful.

Bowd, thanks for your thoughts on contact. I think the trouble is, we seem to be going along fine and then he whips the rug out from under my feet. I know it's the other way round for you, but you do know how difficult living apart and communication is.

JL, thanks for stopping by, I always always appreciate your insight. I know T&P has put a lot of things in perspective for me, but how can I keep working with H, when he never wants to work with me?

"He is struggling with himself and it really isn't about you. It is about him reacting to what you did. You cannot change that and he must come to accept that and himself."

I think this is true. I also think that although he can intellectualise about the conditions of our M leading to the A, he doesn't want to look at the reality of that - hence, not talking about anything, not willing to go to MC etc. I know I can't change what happened or how he feels, but should I just let him continue to hurt me because I deserve it?

Neil, thanks for your thoughts. Everyday is hurting me, and I wish I'd read your post before tonight's little set to! It's just so sad to hear him say those things. I also worry that if I withdraw a little to protect myself, with him being so distant and unsure, we'll end up finishing for good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Anyway, enough of a rant. I'm glad to say that YSD is coming for Christmas Eve, which will mean the pressure on "us" will be off.

Thanks everyone.

Lisa

Lisa,

Expectations are the seeds of resentment. You are expecting your H to act in certain ways and he is not. Please stop. Let him act as he wishes and you do the same. He may be trying to hurt you, but mostly he is just hurting and hurting himself. He is going to flounder around for a bit. Let him. He needs to.

Just be kind, and honest whenever you talk with him. Other than that don't worry about him until this period is over. He will need reassurances that you love him, and that my dear is something you haven't been able to give him, have you? You don't realize how much that may be driving the pain.

My recommendation is to do a good Plan A, meet all of the EN's he will allow you to meet. Don't push the ones he won't. Work on yourself and your feelings for him. You still do have issues YOU need to address. What would help him more than anything is to have you deeply in love with him, but you aren't. Even if you were there would be many issues for him to overcome.

So the Time and Patience really means take time to work on yourself and your feelings for him. Have patience with yourself and your H. He has his work to do, and you have yours. Get cracking on your work Lisa.

You are being hurt by him because you have expectations of his behavior. It is clear that these expectations aren't valid at this point. So let them go. Take every opportunity to Plan A him and work on yourself.

You have a lot on your plate with your Mum, job, situation with H, your feelings for OM, and your lack of deep feelings for H. Focus on these things Lisa.

Must go. OH! it is raining here as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> but the skiers are loving it. The mountains are supposed to get roughly 8 ft of snow between Fri, and today. And then another big storm later this week. Makes great wheather for working and focusing on details. So I guess it is still sunny (the lights are on <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

God Bless,

JL

Got to agree with JL Lisa you have no control over H. Look at me I try and offer a way of contact with W and get *****slapped to next tuesday and now she's out with OM3. Sometimes you can only do so much.

So do the Plan A as best you can, know and accept that he is going to be cranky and irritable, triggers are awful as a BS I know that (and Bob The Builder is one of mine can you imagine how HARD that is to avoid <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) and they can be utterly debilitating (sp?).

As for your New Year Marker than yes revisit where you are at in the New Year. But try and focus on staying calm and as happy as poss considering until then. Geez look its 1:27am and I must sleep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Neil.

JL and Neil

I do hear what you are saying, but whatever I do or say, it seems to rapidly go down hill. The concept of Plan A is just impossible - anything I do to try and support H and show him I love him is thrown back in my face and I get told that I am irritating. I know Plan A is about making you a better person, but do I have to keep getting kicked in the teeth as part of it? H is disrespectful, rude, and difficult. Do I just have to accept this? This just feeds into my own pattern of low self esteem making me feel that I must deserve everything he throws at me.

Whilst I appreciate everything you are saying and can agree on one level, my H is making it very clear to me that he wants to hold back away from me and live his life in a certain way. I don't want to live my life in the way that he expects me to fit in to that. JL, I don't have any expectations of our R - H has made that very clear, but I do expect do be treated with a little kindness and decency - is that so very wrong?

Last night, I didn't call H and I am out tonight. This is not what I want to do, but I cannot keep getting into silly fights with him asserting his authority and control over the situation and by doing that stirring my own emotions and upset.

I have done a very bad thing, but I am not a bad person, and for that I am truly sorry and remorseful. I think that I have shown that and have made efforts to try and see if our M can work, plus looking at why I did what I did. JL, how can I be "deeply in love" with a man that has done nothing to address the issues within our R, and treats me with little respect, has been verbally and mentally abusive (the night out thing), actually then goes out and sleeps with someone else, and I can't even address these things with him?

I truly am thinking that it would be better if we had no contact for a while, because the way things are at the moment there is no peace for H (he just gets angry and irritated), and I feel I can do no right.

Sorry, bit of a rant this morning.

Lisa

P.S. JL, I can't believe you had some rain! Is cold and bright in London today!

Hi,
Lisa
I have been reading the posts, but I have not had the privacy to type a reply...sorry!... I am still here.

I think you are right in what you said in your last post;
Quote:
I truly am thinking that it would be better if we had no contact for a while, because the way things are at the moment there is no peace for H (he just gets angry and irritated), and I feel I can do no right.

Give things time and space, Xmas may not be the right time to do this but it may be the time?

Give yourself time too, try not to put yourself under the microscope and don't expect miracles of yourself.
You and your H both need TIME! and SPACE.
If thats what it takes to get a positive response then let it run its course.
If you can spend sometime in the company of your best, fun loving and understanding friend(s) do so.

I really feel for you and the efforts you are making, but at the end of it all give yourself some attention, you have a life to live too!.

Chin up, smile,respect yourself and be brave, it may sound hard but I tried it and in time it worked for me and it can for you.

Thinking of you

Smudger
xx <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> (Funny face to make you smile!!)

Dear Lisa,

Like Smudger, I have not had the privacy to reply to you but I'm keeping up with your thread. I understand how you feel - when you said "how can I be deeply in love with a man who treats me in this way - x, x, and x." Very much the way I feel about my H - the issue with us, I think, is control. I honestly think, at this point, that my H is not physically attracted to me unless he feels he is able to be dominant. I am refusing to be controlled and slipping more and more out of his grasp, so his "feelings" for me are weaker and weaker. I wonder if this rings any bells with your H - perhaps I am projecting my own situation here, though.

I also think you are doing the right thing by being your own person - not at his beck and call - but what another poster said is very important - be consistent - call if you say you are going to, be accountable. But live your life for what's best for Lisa. If you can't be in touch with him every day, you can't. Do what you have to do for you.

I will try to look in on you as and when I can - its hard to get time alone on the computer during the holidays - even if I don't post, I am usually able to snatch a few minutes to read.

Take care,
LIR

lisa,
i haven't been on much for a long time but have seen some of your posts. i am a BS but recognise some of the symptoms you see in your spouse. Mine left in June and it has been hard but getting easier, especially hard as we approach christmas and we have a child. i too am in london, thinking of you,
crimson

Well not much new to say, but just a thank you to everyone for posting.

Crimson, I appreciate your words. It must be so hard for you with a child - it's a horribly emotional time of year. Is your H still seeing OW, or just "going it alone"? I know I was the one that had the A, but this pulling away is such a difficult thing to deal with.

LIR -I'm always glad to see some words from you. I know you will be busy with the children breaking up, Christmas etc. but it makes me feel better to know that you're out there in Kent reading my drivvle! I think H definitely wants control of the situation, but I don't think it's control of me. Whatever, I know that he shows me little care or respect, and hasn't for several months, and that makes it hard to feel love. I have been trying to see friends and keep busy, (which isn't hard at this time of year), but strange, I feel guilty having a good time. I feel that this must be part and parcel of what I "deserve" for having the A....

Hello Smudger, thanks for the funny face! I'm not too bad really. I can go along really well and feel fine, and then I get huge waves of sadness (like Friday night), and I get so scared too. I don't know what I'm scared of though. I think that I have actually been putting myself under the microscope but not getting the answers I want, so perhaps you are right, and I should just try and relax and enjoy the Christmas/new Year season. I am very lucky with the friends I have and am never short of an invite, shoulder to cry on, or just people to talk to. I do feel immense support from here though, and if I don't get on the MB forum most days I feel a bit lost. I supppose here, I can be utterly truthful and honest and generally, people don't judge you, they just want to help.

Thank you again everyone.

Lisa

Keep smiling Lisa <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I supppose here, I can be utterly truthful and honest and generally, people don't judge you, they just want to help.

Well, I for one am going to judge. I think you are doing a good job, and are a good person, as people go. I believe you don't fail unless you quit trying to change and improve, and you won't. Give yourself come credit, you deserve it, and you need it also.

So, smile. If you were looking at me right now, I would smile and wink, and you would laugh, so laugh, and know that we STILL care.

SS

Thank you SS - I said before, I feel so touched that people whose name I don't even know can reach out and give me so much comfort and support.

I read Zoey's post, and that's given me a lot to think about. I need to keep still working on me you are right. I miss H though and feel so scared of the future - whether it's with him or not.

Thank you again.
Lisa

Hi Lisa just dropping by with support. Am having a lousy time so I know how you feel. All you can do is keep going, keep venting, typing here and getting the support.

Its hard work and for many of us its the only outlet for support that we have myself included, so I can very much relate to your feelings of lost when you don't get here.

Try and concentrate on making the best of the christmas plans you have and whilst they may not be as you'd like try and have some fun. Neil.

Thanks Neil, I know you are having a really rough time right now, and I appreciate your support very much.

I spoke to H today for the first time in 3 days. At the beginning of the conversation he was quite dismissive, almost aloof and a bit rude again. I phoned to ask a couple of things specifically about Christmas and rather than just saying "Yup thanks, that's great", it was a round the houses, what do I care, why are you bothering me type attitude. I stayed calm though and we got through that bit.

I asked H how he was doing, and he said he's been struggling a bit with it all, so I just let him talk. I also said that I hoped we could have a good Christmas together and with the girls at various times, and just try and put things aside for a time. I said that I know whatever I have been doing has been irritating him, but we both need to relax and just try and enjoy ourselves and each other. He said "You're right Lisa, we can put things aside, and I know how difficult it is for you as it is for me."

So, all in all, although a short conversation, it was relatively positive, and I think leaving it for a few days to speak to H was a good thing. I was too upset, and if I'd had that conversation with him a couple of days ago, I probably would have really lost my rag.

I guess what happens is that I learn by every experience and encounter - I learn a bit more about me and what I need to do, and H, and what he needs to do too. Still alot more to learn, but hey!!!!!

Lisa

Hi Lisa,
I have but a few minutes of privacy so here goes!

Your last quote:
"I guess what happens is that I learn by every experience and encounter - I learn a bit more about me and what I need to do, and H, and what he needs to do too."

Thats it Lisa you hit the nail on the head dead centre. Give things time as I said in my last post.

Have you tried counselling for yourself, learn about you and what you want from your R and life in general.

I will try and post again before Xmas day, if I can't I truly hope you have an enjoyable Xmas.

Take care

Smudger
xx

Hi Lisa
I think Smudger is right, we need to give things time. I know that in my case it's true.

Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you. It's so hard when we're full of remorse and sadness, but our spouses can't forgive us.
I think you have a good chance though, please be patient.

If I don't have the chance to post later on, have a wonderful Christmas.

Take care,
H_P

Dear Lisa,

Just popped in to say hi and that I hope you are having some good times with friends, despite the situation with your H. In my case, things are very hard between H and I, but I am finding that I am still able to "pick up" when we are with friends - we have gone to 3 social occasions together in the last 2 days, and we have both enjoyed ourselves separately - isn't it strange! Anyway, it has taught me that it is still possible to have good times, even though life is rough on the inside. So I am hoping the same for you this Christmas season.

In your last post, I thought there were some really good signs -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked H how he was doing, and he said he's been struggling a bit with it all, so I just let him talk.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow! That was great - he admitted he is hurting and tried to talk to you about it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also said that I hoped we could have a good Christmas together and with the girls at various times, and just try and put things aside for a time. I said that I know whatever I have been doing has been irritating him, but we both need to relax and just try and enjoy ourselves and each other. He said "You're right Lisa, we can put things aside, and I know how difficult it is for you as it is for me."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is great! You expressed your desire to still enjoy good times with him and with his daughters, and your willingness to set aside talking about the hard stuff for the time being. You acknowledged that you got that some of what you had been doing was not what he wanted, but you also managed to communicate to him that you still enjoyed being with him. And best of all, he acknowledged you back! AND he acknowledged YOUR feelings! That's so great!

I hope things are still feeling positive - I know its bound to go up and down, but when the next difficult time comes, try to remember this one and it will help you through - it shows that the two of you CAN communicate and CAN acknowledge each other's feelings. Hopefully, with time, the good conversations and feelings will grow in number and then outnumber the difficult conversations, little by little.

I am praying for you. Take care.

LIR

hey lisa
have you planned something christmassy with your H? what about going to sommerset house to skate, a turkey, or something?
best regards
N