Hi Lisa
Just to let you know that I am still here and supporting you, I will post a longer reply asap.

Good luck and Chin up and I hope you have a Happy 2003
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Smudger

xx

Great stuff here Lisa from JL imho,

To clarify my point on timeframe, reading what you write I think you feel you should be at point B of your recovery but H is still at point A. He hasn't gotten to your point yet and thats frustrating to you because you want to move on to C etc.

His progress is hindered and I feel thats due to the combination of things I listed. JL has hit on what appears to be a very strong key here.

I would remind you that it of the phrase "Where do YOU expect to be now in recovery?" because invariably in any recovery be it emotional, mental or physical we are rarely as far along as we think <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Step back and relook. There is a lot of great small stuff going on for your recovery.

Neil.

Hi Lisa,

Taking stock of what has happened, what is happening and what can happen affects all of us so much.

Being brutally honest and facing up to the hard facts is a huge step, even though you may want to tip toe around a real sensitive issue.

BUT to go forward in life you both need to
confront that damaging issue no matter what happens.It looks to me that it has to be done.
Seek professional advice before doing so,individually at first?, it may be the best way forward. You both have to be willing to do it and I appreciate how matters are at present.
It will do you both good, even if you find yourselves in relationships with other people in the future (brutal statement...sorry, I want you and H to sort out your R)

Keep a steady pace,and keep that foot from flooring the acccelorator pedal, one thing at a time and that may answer issues in due course?

JL stated quality observations, hard facts and wisdom. Great stuff

If you can both start a new R great!,the course run by your past R is what got you and H where you are today. Leave it behind.
No harm in remembering and sharing fond memories of the past though, a good holiday,funny events etc. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hope you can get back to fancying H, and do it different that in the past.Hard I know, I have waited a long time to be fancied back it can and does happens.
In the last year I have really understood the meaning of empathy, its a good basis to start at.

I have said enough today

Good luck Lisa, I am feeling for you.

xx <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Hi Lisa,

I have not been able to post for various reasons but have followed your thread. I will read and post soon to you but things have turned sour for me . See my thread on GQII. But briefly,I am sure that your H is improving himself FOR YOU and there are encouraging signs that he is starting to miss you.

Regards,
Deluded

Hello Everybody and thank you for your replies.

I haven't been able to post much in the last day or two, but JL I read what you said again, and again, and again. There is not much to say, and I mean this in a positive way. The nail has been truly hit smack on the head and you have shown me what I can do, and the bottom line. You have also realised, as I have that there is little hope unless we are both prepared to try and recover this.

"You obviously left it for two long if it led to the deterioration of your desire for your H. Can you put it right? Maybe yes, maybe no, but perhaps the goal should be to resolve this issue with your H once and for all and then see how things proceed. I suspect he doesn't see a way to get you to "fancy" him. This particular thing offers something concrete that both of you can and should address."

I think this is the only thing that I really want to highlight. Can I start to "fancy" him again or not (is this a very English word?!?!). Who knows, but this event should be addressed for the sake of both of us, and other key events that happened after which we both really just pushed aside and didn't talk about. I hear you loud and clear JL and I thank you for that and everything else. I am thinking that I might ask H to see me next weekend. Weekdays are hard with work etc. and I don't want him to feel a big "R" talk coming up if he's busy with work etc.

Hello Smudger - good to see you back. I have been meaning to post over on your thread, and intend to do that too. I just don't know where the time goes to. Again, you're right. There's no point anymore in beating round the bush, however painful, and whatever the outcome. I am scared that if I can't get it back for H, yes JL is right it will be over. I suppose it was the reality that I have thought of but never faced. I have a lot more soul searching to do and some over the next few weeks.

Hi Neil and thanks for the clarification. You are of course right, and this is what H meant when he said that we are in different places. I know that there have been an awful lot of positive signs, but equally H will still temper the positives with his uncertainty. I do understand this and I must just remember that we have actually come an awful long way, but there is still and awful long way to go.

Deluded, when did you get back? I was glad to see that you were around and about, but not so your story - I will post to you soon. Thanks for your support. I do remember actually that H did make some comment about buying a new jumper and wonder whether or not I'd like it, so perhaps it is for me, as well as himself. Sadly, his friendship with his colleague is a great worry....

Thanks again everyone.

Lisa

Lisa,

I am glad I could help. As for "fancy", I am sure it is an English word. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It used to be used here many many years ago. My Grandmother who was born in the 1890's used it. That is why I enjoy your use of it so much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I suspect it is more commonly used in the UK, than here now. We use more graphic and far less tasteful words for "fancy" here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Sometimes progress isn't, you know.

I do hope you two address this issue. I do think that you can get to where you need to be, but it will require that you see your H in a different way. You may have to become a bit more like a guy. Us guys tend to find something we like and focus on it and also attach desire to that particular thing. It leads to us "fancying" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> many different kinds of women.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Hey Lisa, just checking in from an Internet Cafe!

You are doing well. I don't want what is happening to me and my W isn't/isn't able to work on us so consider anything that you are doing on your M to be a great step in the right direction. But also remember that you are both needing to do it.

Keep at it. I am going to try and recover my M too if I am able to.

Neil.

LIL-

One bit of information that I picked up from a well respected MC that I definitely believe to be true is that intimacy between two people is born out of innocence. I know it's easier said than done, but if you can spend time exploring those things about your H that are "innocent" in nature, then maybe some of this "chemistry" will come back. Good luck!

-G

Good afternoon everybody and thanks to you all for checking in with me.

Litchfield - I think this is a really interesting point - with innocence I think is a feeling of safety and security and purity - nothing can hurt. Thank you for this, I will certainly bare this in mind.

Neil, I know in some ways I am lucky still to be communicating with H, but in other ways, he has veered back to indifference again. After we went out on Thursday, we didn't speak on Friday, but I called him on Saturday for a chat. He was quite cool, but then started talking more. I asked if he wanted to go out for a walk on Sunday, and he just said, "No, I've got things to do". Not anything particular, like ironing, washing, shopping, video to watch whatever, just "things".

I wonder if his friend from work is back and he was meeting her.... Why not specify, I certainly would say "Sorry, I've got to take the cats to the vet"? Also, there was no sort of word on when we may see each other again. This upsets me and doesn't bode well for my request for a meeting to disucuss the R issues that I want to bring up as suggested by JL. I feel that he has allowed himself to become closer to me in a certain way (after our Boxing Day talk), and now he is pulling away again. I didn't like the rejection either.

JL - yes, I think "fancy" must be used over here more!! Glad you like my words. JL, I so want to do the right thing, for me, H and my marriage, but I am scared of the response. I am scared he will say, "We knew that anyway, how can things change". As you know, he regularly says how can I change that I do not have chemistry for him, and I am scared that he will not be willing to work with me. I am scared that even if he is, we still won't be able to work it out.

"But also remember that you are both needing to do it"

Neil, this is fairly key too. I can't do it by myself, and I don't know if he is willing or capable to engage.

The last few days I have felt so lonely without H. I miss him after we had such a good time, and now he's gone. My own fault I suppose, noone to blame but me.

Lisa

<small>[ January 06, 2003, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Hi Lisa,
I don't think I can add much to what others have said lately. Just checking in to say I care. I still have faith in you. I still have hope for you.

It's true that to make it work, both of you have to care, and try. There is however, much you can do alone that will help him want to do so. Keep working on that part, until you can have another talk. Try to work it in.
I can still see some hope, but you need to see some, then you can help H to see it too.

I hope you have a stiff upper lip, but I hope it is a stiff smile, not a stiff frown. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

<small>[ January 07, 2003, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hey Lisa, I am really sick in bed and still replying <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I hear what you are saying about needing to do recovery with H but whenever you write that I think you miss a fundamental difference between your situation and many of the others here (myself included).

That is that YOU ARE A WS TRYing to recover. This in itself is a big one up compared to the rest of us. Today as you know I desperately tried to seek an avenue (any) to facilitate moving my M forward. My W was clear - No I have hurt her too much (because of most of what I write here). You however are there trying, many of us would love our WS to do something similar.

JL keeps saying and its true - Time & Patience, this flitting between talking to you, opening up then closing down is like rubber banding. He stretches so far (to you), then bounces back the other way (closes down). At some point equilibrium will be achieved. Sadly without Relate or formal guidance I think this process will take a long time, and its whether you can stay the course.

Best Wishes Neil.

Good afternoon everyone, and thank you to Neil (from your sick bed no less!) and SS. I know you care and I thank you for that. As I said quite recently, sometimes it makes me feel so sad that people, whose names I don't even know seem to care more about me than my H.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

"It's true that to make it work, both of you have to care, and try. There is however, much you can do alone that will help him want to do so. Keep working on that part, until you can have another talk. Try to work it in. "

The funny thing is SS, that this is parellel to what Neil says about me as the WS trying to recover and H not wanting to. I feel it is so hard when he distances himself - again, Neil your rubber band analogy is very true. I don't think I am doing terrible well - I feel petulant and cross with him. I think it was Hopeful Person that said "Was I such a bad wife?". Am I such a bad wife, that he isn't prepared to even try and work with me? I know I have hurt him beyond anything that I can comprehend, but I only want the chance to try and show him how I know what a complete and utter **** -up I have made of all this, and how we could work together again towards a better marriage. All I want is to be able to give it a go. Life is too short to live with regrets, ifs and maybes, and I wish he too could want to do that.

I phoned H today to ask to speak to him. I knew I didn't want to write a letter but sort it out as soon as possible. He said he would ring tonight to arrange either for tomorrow or Friday. I am going to write down/print out some of the things you said JL to make sure I don't forget anything. I will tell H that I think I can identify where some of our problems started and that we didn't resolve them. I will tell him that I truly want to resolve them and see if that will help with the physical aspects of our R. I will tell him that I don't want to pressure him or ask him to move back in if he is not comfortable with that, but I would like a commitment from him to go to MC with me to work on these issues together to see if we can then solve the other issues. I know that he is at a different place from me, but fundamentally, he either wants to save our M or not. If not.... well.....

If he says no, sadly I am not prepared to continue waiting for perhaps a phone call, being treated with little respect, and the possibility of H's own involvement with someone else outside of our M. It is now 6 months since d-day, and JL, I took your advice about giving my emotions and feelings time to settle down. I know that H is not second best - if he were, I wouldn't be doing everything that I am now. I know too that we may not be able to resolve our issues even if he is willing to work with me. But what I am not prepared to do is watch as my H pulls away from me and towards someone else. Whilst this may seem too harsh or too speedy, it is how I feel.
Who knows what might happen in another 6 months time, or a year?

I don't want to seem negative, but I fear that H will not agree to my suggestion.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,
I have just read your last post 3 times -am I reading you correctly? Are you going to give your H an ultimatum about a commitment to MC or...what is the alternative? Do you mean, when you say you are not prepared to wait etc, that you are going to give up on him and your M?
You are obviously having a low day which seems not like you, you always seem so hopeful and put in so much work on your M. I dearly wish my H would work half as hard.
Lisa although your H has moved out he still responds to your calls, still sees you and it sounds as if you and he talk a lot about your R. OK not always productively and constructively. But you still talk. And still have fun together sometimes. And, am I right in thinking from previous posts of yours,that when you pull back a little,he usually comes a bit closer,makes contact etc? Neil's(I think) rubber band theory again!
I sometimes suggest that my patients take a " drug holiday" from their medications particularly when they are struggling with side effects. Maybe you are suffering from the side effects of your struggle to restore your marriage.Exhaustion,fatigue, doubt,even a bit of loss of self esteem? So why not take a " Plan A Holiday"? Before all you oldtimers out there point out that that is generally known as Plan B,and that you and H are already living apart, all I mean is for a couple of days just put everything on hold and just cruise! Plan stuff for you ,if H calls,respond joyfully but expect nothing from him and ask nothing of him.And look after yourself. Just 2 days! I think your basic love for your H and your obvious determination to do your best will bounce back.

Lisa I hope this all makes sense and is a tiny bit helpful.

You are in my thoughts, as I swelter in hot sultry Perth!

Deluded

Hello Deluded

Thanks for your comments, I really appreciate it given you must be having such a hard time. How is your Mum coping and you? And what time is it over there - you must be up late/early (can't quite remember which way you are!).

Well, I don't know if I am saying I will give up on my M, but I think the truth will be that I will have to withdraw rather a lot. I was actually really happy he was calling me etc. just around new year, but when I approached him again last weekend to go out, he rejected me. It seems to be fine when he wants, but not when I want. Having said that he has agreed to meet with me to talk.

Deluded, the truth of the matter is, I don't know where else this can go without some professional help. The issues that I talk about were unresolved, and contributed to the deterioriation of our physical R, and hence our M overall. I can't work it out by myself, (although I am going to IC), H and I need support together. If H is not prepared to do that, I think it will signal that actually he is not prepared to work on our M at all. Although he told me at Christmas that he still loved me, cared about me and missed me, he also catergorically stated that his position had not changed, i.e. he feels the M is over and he does not see how he can get past the points on his "list" (see my earlier post).

What I want to address by going to MC is the experiences that created the issue around me not having chemistry for H. This is key to our M - I know that, and if we can't work it out, we have no M. Sadly, this is something I know and has also been alluded to by far wiser people than me, i.e. JL. As much as I love H, if we do not have a physical R, we can't have an M. If H is not willing to explore why this deterioriated, and caused my indifference to him in terms of fancying him, it will be stalemate.

If that is the case, there is no point in me waiting around indefinitely for him to perhaps change his mind, or perhaps become involved with someone else. I am not saying that if this is the scenario, and he comes back to me in six months time, a year's time or whatever, and is willing to try, then I would have to re-evaluate then. But, there is nothing else I can do - I can't make him go to MC, and we can't work this out by ourselves. We didn't at the time, we swept it aside, we pushed it under a carpet and look where we are now? Does this make sense? The thing is, we don't have a M unless we can resolve the physical issues, and without MC to look at what happened to cause that, what can I do? The critical incident that happened in 1997 won't change by itself - H and I both need help....

Deluded thanks for thinking of me, and know that I am thinking of you and your family too.

It's been snowing here today in London!!

Lisa

Hi Lisa,
Yes it is v late here-2am but I am still a bit on UK time plus adrenaline boosts me up,plus this is the only time I can get to the PC with privacy.

Mum is such a sweetie-she is the original control freak but it is all based on such love for her family. She fades a little day by day and I think in another few days she will be unable.unwilling to get out of bed at all. Her symptoms are generally well controlled especially her pain thank GOd.,
I am doing ok-lots of tears and I feel lonely for my H and my children but am just glad to be able to help care for her.

I have read the previous posts and your H's list and this critical incident does seem to have emerged as a focal point inyour M. I know you do not want to reveal more information and it is difficult to know what to suggest without it. Would it help if you haven't already done so to consult your GP?
You cannot force your H to MC as I too know too well. Does he even acknowledge that the critical incident is a catalyst? Maybe if he did,he may move on from there. Relate do psychosexual counselling and you can go alone if he won't go. I think most men are reluctant.But he is the only person who can give his perspective! Of course I may be barking up the wrong tree here.
I just feel ultimatums are very threatening and confrontational.
Hang in there girl!

Hope your snow is useful-snowman,snowballs,toboggans and can't get to the office?

Regards and thinking of you,Lisa

Deluded

Hi Deluded

I'm sure you must be lonely and if it was my Mum, oh boy would there be tears. H always says "Lisa's so emotional, she crys at the bus timetable!!"

"I just feel ultimatums are very threatening and confrontational."

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more with you, and I don't intend to use it as such. I just need H to know that although I know he is in a different place, the only way we can potentially get to the same place and try and work at our M is through MC and with professional help. I keep saying that I can't make him do that, but these issues have never been resolved, and we need to start working at that.

I don't know really if I am clutching at straws, hoping that he may agree to this - it will not be a big revelation to him about this incident. We touched on it at Christmas and how it had affected us both, and how it had never truly been resolved. It's whether he can see that if we can put this right, I may be able to address my issues, and with that rebuild our M. Again, I know a little part of him doesn't want to give up, but will it be a big enough part?

H called tonight and has agreed to come round tomorrow to talk to me. I will of course keep everyone posted.

I am scared scared. But one way or the other I guess I'll know.

Lisa

Well Lisa I feel for you and I hope it goes well tomorrow. I firmly believe that MC is the way forward which is why I kept banging the drum for SH and/or Relate.

Relate has been a blessing to me in so many ways that have helped when at times I thought I would go under. Even now when I have been low they have shown me what to expect and also how to cope. Doesn't make it any less painful or tearful but you begin to realise that it's not just you, that these things are experienced by many in our positions WS or BS equally.

I hope that your H turns around. Best Wishes & Thoughts Neil.

Lisa,

I have been out of the office, but I wanted to suggest that you NOT put to many expectations on this meeting. I think it is a good thing for him to hear that you feel you have pinpointed a big issue for you and one that affected your feelings for him.

He may not agree immediately to do this, but don't be discouraged. Let it sink in. Let him mull this over. Does he want a W that "fancies" him? If so there is a chance, but it will take some addressing of issues.

Please state it as HE can help YOU. And perhaps this will lead to grounds for reconcilliation. It is still a choice you both have to make.

Hope it goes well, but no matter what you have opened a door. Don't close it immediately if he hesitates.

God Bless,

JL

Hi sweety,
Long time no chat. So sorry for all you have been through in the last month. Do you know how many of us betrayed spouses would love to have our wayward spouses go through for us all you have gone through for your H?
I don't know if that makes sense but it makes me sad that he is still punishing you. Very unfairly.
My wh came home after 2 weeks with the OW and I kept going on and on about how much he hurt me and how I could never trust him again etc, etc.
He stopped and looked at me and said, "There is nothing I can say to make up for what I have done to you. Nothing I say will make you feel better. I gave up on us and put you through hell and I can't take it back."
Then it dawned on me. He was right. He gave me the message your husband needs to get. He can punish you until the day he dies but in the end HE is the only person with the power to remove that hurt.
You alas will never be able to. If you keep kicking yourself I might have to fly to London and kick you in the butt. (I need to pick up the new Erasure album anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )
Lisa honey, you have done your pennance, your time. You have shown all the remorse and regret you can.
He needs to either be overjoyed that you figured it out and still want to be in the marriage or continue his pity party alone.
I read all your posts and all it sounds like is that he is punishing you, then getting angry when he lets go of that anger for a bit, realizes this gorgeous, strong amazing woman is his, and has to throw another pity party.
It is so unfair to you dear.
I don't know what happened in 97. It sounds like something you probably both need counseling for. You need to work on one thing at a time.
I believe right now, if there is any ultimatum to set it has to be you saying, "Enough. I cannot change what I have done and it isn't possible for me to be any more regretful. I love you and I believe in us. I want you and only you. I want us to be our first priorities. I just refuse to continually be punished for a mistake I have apologized for a thousand times."
I know it sounds harsh, but Lisa, if he can't let go of that you guys don't have a future.
I thought when I heard my H had slept with the OW that would be it. I would never want him back. He had soiled the sanctity of our marriage and that was it. He not only burned his bridge with me but blew it up entirely.
Then I realized, I still believe love conquers all. I believe that love bears all things and believes all things. Hopes all things and ENDURES all things.
I know that I have to choose to let go of the anger. Just like your husband will have to come to that conclusion.
I want to be his everything. I want a chance to make our marriage as wonderful as it can be. If my WH tries even a tenth of what you have tried we will survive this.
You are so amazing and so strong and I am so proud of you. Please don't get down on yourself.
I know it is hard right now, just remember we all believe in you and we all love you.
Take care sweety,
Layli

Good morning everyone - it's a very sunny, bright but cold day in London - is this a good sign, no rain?!?!?

Firstly, Layli it was sooo good to see your name pop up and I was very comforted by your words. You have so much faith in me, it makes me sad that H can't have a little bit of that. I think since you last posted to me, I have come a long way to understanding why the A happened.

Sometimes it seems like lame excuses, but I will never and could never justify what happened. I think I reached a crisis point in my life for a number of different reasons - predominantly (at the time) because I didn't work for nearly 4 months, was paying all the household bills when H was away, and my self esteem and confidence became non existant. On top of this I was lonely as hell - when you work by yourself, but have no work, when you live by yourself and have noone to talk to, this just exacerbates the whole situation. OM came along, gave me work, provided endless conversation and affection, and like a fool I fell for it - I tried telling H, but he didn't get it, and rather than try harder to make him understand how desperate I felt, I choose the wrong turning at the crossroads. But I think this crisis was also a combination of other things that happened in our M and we had not put right. Whilst I did a bad thing, a terrible thing, I now know I am not a bad person. I suppose this is the simplified view of what happened (there were other things too, including a very bad stomach bug that went on for about 8 weeks), but I was weak and foolish. Then with the A came the selfishness, arrogance, egotistical behaviour that is so characteristic of most people involved in As. You think it's the best thing ever, with little or no regard for the consequences, because you think you won't get found out.....

Anyway, I digress, the point being, that I realise I was weak, stupid, and foolish, but I have accepted that I can become a better person and learn from my mistakes. Even H commented on the positive changes in me and how he admires everything I have done. I haven't quite forgiven myself, but I don't beat myself up daily as I first did.

"He needs to either be overjoyed that you figured it out and still want to be in the marriage or continue his pity party alone."

I think this is the stumbling block - I don't think he is willing, because of his hurt, to work on the M - I think he will chose his pity party. I also think he knows how sorry I am - he has said to me in the past, "You don't even need to apologise anymore because I know how sorry you are". It's his pain that he can't get over, and feels he needs to deal with by himself. And that is something I can't help with.

" I wanted to suggest that you NOT put to many expectations on this meeting. "

JL, I hear you loud and clear - I'm not excpecting him to say, great I'll move back in tomorrow, everything's fine and we'll start Relate next week. But I need some sort of sign, some sort of committment to our M. If he says he needs time to think about it, great, that would be a positive step. If he wants to carry on living at the flat, but agrees to MC, whatever the outcome, great. But if he says he does not think we have a future for our M and he will not commit to MC to address any issues other than the A and OM meeting my needs, what am I to do?

JL, a question for you - do I just say "OK, H that's fine by me, I have done everything possible to show you how serious I am about rebuilding our M, I am deeply remorseful for my actions and regret causing you this immense pain, but never mind, you carry on treating me as you want when you want, embark on your own A, and just maybe 6 months down the line you will change your mind"?

What other options do I have? I'm not getting any younger, and maybe one day there will be someone else out there for me. I think about H all the time, worry about what I did. He doesn't. He has told me he doesn't think about me. I can't keep this going indefinitely - I need to have a life, preferably with H, but if he is not willing, I need to go it alone.

Neil, thanks for your good wishes. My IC has been going relatively well, but in some ways, I have worked out, in the simplest of ways why the A happened, which was my primary purpose of IC. The time is right, with or without H to move to Relate me thinks. January is a pretty bad month cash wise, but I still do consider SH too.

Well, thanks again everyone. If anyone other than JL fancies a stab at answering my questions, I'd be very grateful for that help!!! Sorry this post is so long, felt I needed to get some things straight in my own mind too before tonight.

Lisa