Hello Lisa
Just checking in.Hope you are feeling ok. I too like many others feel that this is nowhere near the end for you and H. I think that his confused feelings and hurt about your A combined with his need for reassurance from another-hence this OW who probably fancied him and was very ready to step into the position once it became apparently vacant-have led to him being pretty muddled right now. So he may feel that right now MC is not what he wants as he cannot do that and see OW.
You said that if you had told H about the texts etc with your OM he would have not let the A happen. But surely,by then it was already an EA? And don't we know that only the WS can end an affair-the BS can only wait for it to end,and not interfere. I think it is helpful to go back to MB basic principles sometimes.
OK he is LBing you and being selfish right now but that doesn't mean that he won't come out of the fog again and want to try again with you. And you do not deserve this treatment any more than any BS does-just because you were a WS too does not mean your rights to be treated with respect are waived. We all know-especially your H-how remorseful you are and how clearly you want to rebuild your marriage. Don't expect him to be rational-wait. And wait. And look after yourself!PLan A! Have Fun!.
If he files for DV re-evaluate. But I would not be surprised if he does not act on that right now.

Just some thoughts I had whilst reading through your posts.

Now I hope the snow has gone and its not so cold-I hate driving when there is black ice around.
BTW your comment about the roaring fire and a curry made me laugh-that is my H's idea of heaven if you throw in a few pints too. The big question is-do you put eggs in your curry or not?

Keep smiling-it really does help lift your spirits to smile!

You have been in my thoughts .

Deluded

Hello LIsa,

I have been very busy lately, and haven't had time to check up on much here. I did just look back at several pages of your postings--back to my previous one where I asked you if you fancied your H. I so agree with JL--that 'fancying'/chemistry comes and goes a bit, and I 'm sure you can get it back. I think I've always been a bit 'mannish' (I do have three brothers) and I tend to focus on an attractive feature a man has. I believe JL mentioned this here , too, how men tend to do that.

Enough on that, as the matter at hand is that you've lost HOPE. Please don't give up, Lisa. It's far too early for that. I think this GF thing of his will play itself out, like an A would do. You've invested too much time, and love him too much to simply give up now.

BTW, your H --are you sure he's not my exH? No, in all seriousness, they sound alike. At least the very 'stubborn' aspect where you mentioned he won't change his mind. Don't be so sure, please. Give it time.

You said,

"He has told me he doesn't think about me. I can't keep this going indefinitely - I need to have a life, preferably with H, but if he is not willing, I need to go it alone."

First, you can HAVE A LIFE, while you wait for your H to come around. I've had to adjust a bit in my thinking. This is the FIRST time since I was with H back in the late seventies that I haven't had a man saying "I love you" , doting on me, and giving me the attention that only a man can give a woman in that 'special' way. It's been an adjustment mentally, in many ways, but for me I don't mind as I see that the longer I'm alone, and still telling/showing my exH I LOVE HIM, he will see that I'm not desperate for a MAN, but I want HIM. Hope that makes sense.

My exH said he doesn't think about me, either, as yours did as shown in the quote above. That was last June. I don't know if I believe it, or not. I truly don't--as conversations, although few, after that one showed me that he did think about me as he mentioned he'd have trouble 'trusting' me again.

Perhaps what he did mean, your H, is that he doesn't obsess over you, as you and I obsess over our men. I am a bit of a traditionalist, Lisa, when it comes to men and women and how we are, and where our identity is at for us. I believe that women truly hold their identity most strongly as women in a R, and as mothers, and for men it is more strongly their profession. I know many that read this will think I'm some sort of anti-woman's rights overly conservative person, but that's not true at all. I just feel that for most of us females the R is everything in life, and I don't quite see it that way for most males. I stayed home for years, as a wife and mother--and felt completely fulfilled that way. My recently acquired career gains mean nothing to me compared with being a mom and formerly a wife. I earn 3 times more than I did when I first started working full time a few years back,(thank goodness for education to help out with salary) and I couldn't care less that I earn more money, and have a 'better' title,--except it helps me with finances. I would give it all up to have my former life/exH back, in a second. So, perhaps that's what exH meant. I'm sure he does think of you!

I read SO MUCH on all of your posts, so many people giving such wonderful insight. Please, Lisa, I would say that you shouldn't file for divorce. After D-Day, my exH wanted me to file. I refused, and he finally did it five months after D-Day. To me it did signal he was giving up completely, but I was still in the throes of that ridiculous affair so I really didn't 'care' as much as I should have cared. I do, however, remember feeling VERY ambivalent when I sought an attorney, and I had a hard time not crying each of the very few times I had to actually meet with my attorney. Sadly, it doesn't take much legally to end a marriage when both parties are agreeable sorts who don't fight over money.

Did I read correctly, that your H said he was with this GF in part as she was younger than you? What pure bunk! Those words were simply meant to hurt you deeply, just as your A hurt him.

One other thing, you mentioned that if H had known about the text messages , etc, he would have stopped the A. Please, Lisa, you don't really believe that, do you? My usually passive exH knew about my IM's, emails, and I even asked my H what he would think if I met the guy, in person. He told me he wouldn't like it--said with vehemence--and he mentioned he was very scared of losing me, but I believe---and I'm sure you know it's true, that once the EA started and grew deeply and quickly--VERY LITTLE would have stopped me from meeting up with OM in person. It's embarrassing to admit, but it is very true. I look back now, and see what I could now call God given signs that I shouldn't be doing what I was thinking of or actually doing, but I CHOSE to ignore them. Lisa, I still wake up in the morning and can't believe this is my life! I can't believe I made this horrendous choice. So bottom line in what I'm saying to you is that you must admit that it wasn't H"s responsibility nor would he have been able to stop much that you did. Just my thoughts.

This is rambling on and on. Please, Lisa, don't give up. My divorce has been final now ---just over five months==and I'm not giving up! I asked exH for 'chances' many times in the 13 months from filing to finality of the D, and it's always been "NO". I still think there's hope, although it's not always easy. I feel that even during the phase of waiting for the D's finality he at times DID sound like he WANTED to try when I'd ask him, but the D perhaps was a grand punishment he wanted to give me for the A, thus he went ahead without doing the harder thing which would be working on the marriage.

Take care and please be PATIENT.

H_P

Hello everybody, and thank you all for your thoughtful and comforting replies. I started this post, wrote loads and then lost it - DOH! So here goes again!

H_P thank you for your in-depth and insightful post. Funny thing is, I always define myself by what I do and how well work is going. I think that is more so since I became self employed because it was just such a big thing for me to do. I guess if I had children it may be different.

I think you are right about our H's being similar. The other thing is that whatever "nice" thing you try to do, it's queried, or found to be irritating!

H_P and Deluded, I honestly believe if my H had sat me down and said, please don't do this you are about to have an A and it will be so upsetting for me, I would have thought twice about it. And that's what I said to my H. I can't bear the thought of you doing this, and you will be having an A. H_P your H, didn't really say that. But the difference was although H and I weren't separated, he wasn't here, and I did lie to him - I did not tell him, because I knew it was an A, but he has told me and I have still said "You're having an A, this is clouding your judgement and hurting me". Couldn't be much clearly. What he actually said to me H_P was that I was jealous because she was younger than me.

OK, here's a question, how long might be a reasonable amount of time for your desire to wane? I ask this because I am truly interested for replies. OM told me once (how awful this is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ), that he and his W did not have sex for 2 years after the birth of their first child. I know that this can happen to some women around childbirth, but anyone else with other examples not about childbirth? How long did the desire wane for and what made it come back?

H_P you are also right when you say that I have given up hope - I feel that I have. This whole situation has been so traumatic (I know I created it), but I honestly feel that I have run out of steam and I have no patience.

Hi Deluded - yeah, I do like eggs in curry, but haven't done that in a long time - must remember next time, thanks for the tip! Well OK, as a semi-Brit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> you got the humour there! I'm trying to see the bright side although I feel incredibly sad.

"I think that his confused feelings and hurt about your A combined with his need for reassurance from another-hence this OW who probably fancied him and was very ready to step into the position once it became apparently vacant-have led to him being pretty muddled right now."

I think this will definitely affect his judgement now, but it seemed to me that in his heart and mind he had given up beforehand. I don't know, this is just what I sense. Call it sixth sense, but also, I asked H to give me back my house keys when he passed, and he still hasn't done this. I would definitely have expected that he would have done this by now, but I think last night he went out from work, got drunk and stayed with OW. I just sense it, and maybe now it is a PA. Do you know, I just want to ring him up and shout at him down the phone. I don't think I can Plan A, but more of that later... Thanks for checking in Deluded, let us know how you and your Mum are doing.

Thanks for your support Litchfield. It means a lot to me that BS think I'm doing well. I don't think I did in the early days, I reckon I just stayed with H and tried to get on with it, but I do believe now that I have grown, and continue to do so, by examining myself and my actions. You ask about Plan A/B and where I am, as do others (in a way). I don't know. Plan A is meant to be for the BS to make themselves a better person, but also to show their WS why they married in the first place (in a nutshell). However, I was the WS and I was Plan Aing to the best of my ability my BS, and it didn't work. In some ways, over the last few months, it has been rather like role reversal. He has been angry, distant, breaking away, not sure of what he wants to do and I have been Plan Aing - successfully I guess in terms of myself, but not my R. Litchfield, I think he'll file. For me, I think for now it has to be Plan B, because the pain and anger is beginning to take hold because of his A, and I don't know if I can deal with that right now. Any opinions anyone?

Interestingly, in the UK, a BS can only file for DV on the grounds of Adultury within the first 6 months of discovery. The law states that if it is after that time, it is not relevant as the BS must "condone" it. There is something about living apart within that time, so I guess H may still file on Adultury. Also, I could actually file on the grounds of his "unreasonable behaviour", which can be used if the OP is of the same sex, or the R is not sexual. Perhaps I should let him know that which may give him a shake up.

Hi Neil, thanks for your words. I appreciate you stopping by given your latest discovery. I don't know if I can Plan A, as I have just said, but I think NC with H for the next few weeks needs to be done to keep me sane. He may see this as an excuse to consumate his R, but maybe he will just see the upset and pain. I told him that I was saying I didn't want to see or speak to him because I was too hurt and upset, not because I was being childish or reacting. You are right about DV though, but I still think H will file..... Take care of yourself.

Layli, I appreciate your comforting words alot and it does make me feel better to know that you are thinking of me - SNAP!

I have a question, do I contact OW? H has warned me off, but I have her mobile number. I thought perhaps a quick phone call to say that we are still married, and I wonder if it sits comfortably with her "dating" a MM, given that she is a good "Catholic" girl - OK, that's a bit heavy, but anyone got any thoughts?

One last rant - H said on Thursday how when he first came back he had jumped through hoops and did everything for me, and then went on to say "I cleaned the whole house, and you still went cycling". I mean HELLO!!!! H has not been meeting my needs for months and months - frankly it was pretty hard for both of us given he was living in another country, but if that was his best effort (given that H regularly used to clean the house), I mean where is he coming from. I know he got upset that weekend, and in retrospect it was a mistake that I went (Neil, JL, Nick, LIR you will remember from the summer), but he agreed to me doing it.

There is so much work that needs to be done, and I go back to the fact that even before OW, H was not interested in doing that work. How can he have thought that we were for life, if he is so unprepared to try anything? Did I mean so very little to him, that during my darkest hours, and when making the very worst mistake of my life, he couldn't find it in his heart to even try a tiny little bit to help me through?

Rant and pity party over. I'm going out with a friend tonight. This is the first time since New Year I have been out - I have been at home being reflective really. But it's a good excuse to dress up, do my hair, put my face on and shine for me.

Thank you friends.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,
Happy New Year once again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

A thought to your question:
I have a question, do I contact OW? H has warned me off, but I have her mobile number. I thought perhaps a quick phone call to say that we are still married, and I wonder if it sits comfortably with her "dating" a MM, given that she is a good "Catholic" girl - OK, that's a bit heavy, but anyone got any thoughts?

Lisa do not bother to contact OW, what could you expect to get out of it? I contemplated "going to see" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> the OM my wife was seeing but I didnt. I am glad I kept myself in check and he still remains a faceless nothing to me, it doesnt mean though that I cannot forget him but I do honestly try for the sake of our R moving forward.
I think that you seek to obtain some hidden information or vent some anger by wanting this contact, but in the end all that matters is you, your H, your R and some sanity <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Have a good old RANT on MB about OW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
then sit back, take a deep breath have a small tipple and be glad thats what you did.
Although OW is a part of the equation you really do not need to contact her.

I hope this has been of some help?

Take care

smudger

xx

ps I am a Officer in the London Fire Brigade, if you pass a picket line at your local station at the end of the month, give the firefighters a toot on the car horn!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Dear Smudger

Thank you for your thoughts. I know in some ways I shouldn't contact her, but I think for me I can cope with the EA, but when (if it hasn't already) it moves to PA, I just don't know how to deal with that. My friend on Saturday night said to me "Why not contact her? When H found out about OM, he did everything in his power to make sure that it would finish, why should you give him an easy ride now and respect his wishes". In a way I agree, not in a nasty I want to get you way, and of course, he will not be that honest with her.

The other thing I wondered is whether I should write or send an e-mail to H telling him again how desperate it makes me feel that he is taking the OW route. Smudger, if he is so hurt and devastated by what I have done to him, how come within 2 weeks of moving out, he can see someone else? I know I couldn't date someone else. Also, he said it wouldn't bother him if I went out with someone else, but it would if I contaced OM (which of course I would not do), but what's that about - either he cares that I would see someone else or not. I know in his mind he feels separated, but surely not in his heart if he still says he loves me, misses me and cares about me.

I find it so confusing, I don't now what to do anymore. Perhaps a Plan B style letter with some of these thoughts in should be what to do. I know I can't see him or speak to him at the moment though.

I feel so sad about it all, I'm not coping terribly well, think I should pick myself up. It's hard though, because work is quiet at the moment, not much happening, but it will all pick up soon.

How are things with you Smudger? Post an update and let us know. Is the strike definite?

Take care

Lisa

Lisa I am still gonna harp on about YOU gettin' to Relate. I bet you haven't done it.

You are trying to do all this on your own and its not sensible. Its just to damn draining. And no MB's is a wonderful help but its not a true replacement for a MC either (unless you were using Steve or Jennifer).

I personally think there is FAR too much going on for you (I know pot... kettle... black) but you need to take some of JL's T&P.

Yes you are correct about the Divorce rules, although any good solicitor would have you for Unreasonable Behaviour including Adultery so thats a moot point - sorry. It is unlikely that you could file on him in truth.

Why not step back, stop all this relationship stuff and concentrate on yourself. Do the 180 turn, but not a Plan B? Leave it open so that there is contact? I think Plan B is too harsh and really must only be used to protect that last bit or you cannot absolutely take anymore - which is where I am right now. I am protecting my love for my W by not doing anything with her now. Of course she doesn't see it that way but its the way to avoid hate.

How about taking some time out to settle yourself, get into MC, get cycling, go out. Start picking yourself up. If he is going anyway you will need to do this anyway. Trying to talk to him just isn't working as in my case with WW. They have to figure it out for themselves.

Take care, Neil.

Hi Neil

Many thanks for your thoughts. As you know I have been having IC which I think has helped me alot along with MB, but I think it is time to think about switching to Relate. I will keep the IC going, because as you know, it can take some time with Relate.

Neil, I hear what you are saying, but H has given me so little in any sort of sign about anything, that I am just meant to sit here and watch him, knowingly become involved with someone else? I think there's a difference between discovery and stopping the A (as I did), and just having to sit back and watch your S become invovled with someone else. He thinks it's fine, I don't. I don't want to watch him do it, or be involved with him as he does. How can I show him any sort of care and love, when his actions are just making me feel sad and unforgiving? He is coming from a completely different place from me. He can't even accept it for what it is.

On this forum, whenever anyone has multiple d-days, I feel so desperately sad and sorry for them. One is bad enough, but when their WS's keep going back again and again, I wouldn't be able to deal with it. I knew my mistake, and contact stopped pretty much immediately. And how can he really be hurting so very much that he's so broken, but it doesn't stop him dating? I couldn't go out with anyone now.

Anyway, I have told H already that I don't want to see or speak to him. I haven't followed this up, and wonder if you have any thought about and e-mail etc? I know I sound like I'm whining, but I don't want to see him or speak to him. He is arrogant and angry - "I'll do what I want and you have no right to tell me anything".

Funny thing Neil, but H knows that he is outside of the 6 month time frame. I don't want to play games with him, but it would seem unlikely that he could file on the grounds of adultury - but of course I could now file on the grouds of his unreasonable behaviour. That's just the weirdness of it all. You can even do it all via an internet site without a solicitor - is this what our lives have come to?

Thanks anyway, how are you doing. I posted on your thread here in GQII.

Lisa

<small>[ January 13, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

So Lisa, if that is all the capacity you have left then you must protect your love and do a Plan B <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

re talking to the OW.

I don't know, I did it and I think it helped. but you have to do it carefully.

I called, and told her I loved my H and that my children would be irrevocably hurt by a D. (She didn't care, told me she couldn't give my H up because their love could be a "grand love". I was very polite- she ended up thanking me for being so gracious. I asked her if she was planning to get my H with an unplanned pregnancy- to which she assured me she wouldn't. I then promised that I as well would not try to trap him with a pregnancy. (this got her wondering.) I
can't believe I said this but I asked her how she felt about children since I have 3 and she probably would be dealing with them. She answered "I don't know much about children". I asked her if she wanted children eventually and she said yes.

The minute I hung up she called my H and relayed the whole convo to him.

For me, it was helpful. 1) It demystified her. I realized I stood head and shoulders over her. 2) My H had claimed she didn't want children. I knew my H did not want more kids. This made it clear that if he went with her he was in for changing diapers again eventually. 3) She confronted my H- "what does your W mean about not trapping you with a pregnancy!!!" 4) I knew what I was up against- someone who fully intended to pursue my H no matter who (my children) got hurt.

My H wasn't too happy with me calling but my POV was since you may be living with this woman and my kids may be exposed to her I have a right to check her out.

I was very careful and I was not mean or nasty in any way.

In your situation it's harder because you and your H do not have kids together. I would perhaps limit it to: I love my H and want to save our M.

But it could backfire and anger him. It depends- is he still having SF with you? If so, she deserves to know of your existence.

Thank you Espoir for your thoughts.

Neil I posted on JFO, and I think sadly Plan B is the way to go for me. Given that as the FWS I was trying to Plan A my H (which is usually for the BS), it didn't work. His R with OW is making me angry, sad, mad, hurt etc. and I can't deal with him.

"But it could backfire and anger him. It depends- is he still having SF with you? If so, she deserves to know of your existence."

Espoir, this is the key to alot of the problems H and I have. If you read through a couple of my early posts, over the past few years I have come not to "fancy" my H anymore, and no we haven't had SF in a while. Also, H told me last week that if I did anything (which is a bit of a threat really), to contact her or show him up at his work place, he would just "leave the country". Of course he doesn't know I've got her mobile number <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Also, I think this is unfair, given that he is seeing her outside of work. It is not purely a working relationship or friendship. But I am worried, because he will be livid.

On JFO, Cerri suggested contact her, but perhaps it would bring them closer for a short time, but it would still perhaps worry her and make her feel uncomfortable. Along the lines of "I have been doing everything possible to make things work in my M, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to come between a husband and wife". However, I think from what H says, that she's very straight forward no nonsense sort of person, and I doubt whether it would have any affect. I may leave it until H goes to Germany at the end of this week.

I suppose the thing is, whilst H sees this is a friendship, it is clearly developing, and the reason I wonder about contacting her is whether or not it would put her off. As I have said before, I am not sure I could cope with a PA, given that I would just sit and watch and wait for it to happen.....

Last night I went to IC. After quite long discussions she asked me "Why do you want to cling so badly to someone who clearly does not want to cling to you?" I couldn't answer this, but this is how it must look from what I am telling her.

Anyway, I think it is time for Plan B purely because I can't bear seeing him when he rejects me constantly and seems so sure that our M is over.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Lisa

Hey Lisa, its going to get better in the future, we have to believe that yes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I had counselling with Steve H and this thing about moving to Plan B came up. It was to be done when your energy levels to do Plan A (which OK is not strictly appropriate here) were at zero.

If you can say that you are not exhausted doing what you are doing then carry on. Consider the contact with OW carefully. Be prepared for bad news mind. When I contacted OM I found out far more than I was expecting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

If you genuinely cannot carry on, and being treated this way is so draining, then do the Plan B. Remember that its the last vestiges of a wake up call, and the last steps to ending the M or recovery. So you must be prepared for your M to end because you won't love your H.

That IC question is straight forward. You cling onto what you know and love, sure you lost the way, but when you found the way back it was gone. That doesnt mean you are ok with not having it anymore. Sure hopefully I wont clean to the memory of my W but just because of the way she treats me doesnt mean I dont want her. And thats straight from Relate.

Its called Grieving, and its called Loss, and its painful. When I read that I thought no more IC for you, go to Relate. Even now if you are doing Plan B go to Relate to understand how you will feel now and the next period <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Best Wishes Neil.

Hi Neil

Many thanks for your thoughts around Plan B. I just think that firstly, I have already said I need a break from him for a while, but secondly, I can't find it in my heart to Plan A, when my best efforts at that took him to another woman.

He seems so adamant that recovery is not an option that I think I have given up hope (something I said to LIR). All the time I had some hope that H would consider reconciliation, that was OK, but I feel absolutely drained with it all - also from the point of view of the efforts I have been putting in to my own self discovery.

I know that I would not be able to Plan A without LBing - because H is so arrogant and angry I just become defensive, i.e "I don't have to have this conversation with you. How dare you tell me that I'm embarking on an A, I'm seperated". I don't think he is processing his hurt or pain terribly well, and this still fuels his anger. Sadly, I become angry about her.... It's a viscious circle.

Thanks again Neil.
Lisa

Lisa, I hear what you are saying and so it to me sounds as though you should Plan B. This is occurring but not in a way that you have a modicum of control. I know you can say Pot... Kettle... to me again, but maybe thats what we really need some time and distance.

My path is set now and I'm on it, don't feel good about it but have to do it to keep me safe and sane. Maybe you need to do the same and see where this goes with H as a result.

I personally had felt that Plan A was not going to work for you anyway, because I also know the pain he is in and how hard it is to get thru, I did but it looks like your H isn't because he is getting no help or MC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Take Care, Neil.

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Porsche 911 996C2 ]</small>

I think you are in quite a difficult spot. Your H didn't seem to Plan A you when he found out about the affair. He didn't look in himself to figure out why you might have gone to someone else to meet your needs. You were in withdrawal and very defensive initially, so you didn't really Plan A him until some time had gone by, by which time he had already withdrawn. It makes me think of Jen Brown's husband a bit, and of hopeful person's. These guys are BS, but they did contribute to the climate that produced the A. They are also unwilling to examine themselves and prefer to take a holier than thou approach.

I think you make some good points for not contacting OW. I doubt it will cause her second thoughts for a moment. YOur H will just say, my wife cheated on me and I can't be with her even though she wants me to. And OW will just say, oh you poor thing you.

In a way, I think you just have to go dark on him, go on with your life and see what he does. Try to ignore what he is doing. Maybe he's decided he can never forgive you. Maybe he'll play around for a couple of months and the attraction will wear off and he'll decide he misses you. It's pretty much out of your control- all you can do is not LB.

You can either date him or go dark on him or even go into an official Plan B. But I don't know if I would dramatize it so much. Maybe just be unavailable and wait for him to come around. If he doesn't, you will know that rebuilding is impossible.

It's a tricky situation and I wish you the best in navigating it.

Lisa!
hello, I just wanted to pop in and say hi. I was watching a Hugh Grant movie earlier and it made me think of you. I think you need to do something fun to get your mind off things. These last few months have drained you. I also agree that it is so out of your hands now.
I would look and say what does Lisa need right now? Do a plan a for yourself. If you can't contact him then don't. Small steps.
Really take the time to decide, if everything you wanted to happen did, what would you do?
If he called you tomorrow and said, I want to move back in, I love you, let's work it out, you need to know what you would do. It also makes you look at everything. I did that the other night, had a little mental discussion with my WH.
I had a pro discussion and a con discussion. I found out I lived through both and that I could find positive's on both sides. Granted my postitive on the con side involved me hooking up with Ben Affleck and winning the academy award...LOL. But it got me dreaming of MY future. What I wanted to happen. I realized I could make a nice life for myself either way.
Maybe it will help in your situation. You know what I do when I am so bummed I can't see straight?
I get some good ice cream and my friend Lance and I have an AB FAB marathon. It cheers me up and I remember that there are things in life to laugh about.
So let us know how it is going,
Much love to you kitten,
Layli
PS I heard a word in this movie about a boy and I don't know what it means, any definition? Slag. Thanks my london cutie! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Good afternoon everybody and thanks all for your thoughts. I think between you (Neil, Espoir and Layli) you have summed up the situation very accurately.

Firstly, oh Layli I did laugh at your question "What's a slag?" Frankly friend, a slag is a not very nice lady, bit easy, tarty, slapper, sort of thing?!?!?!? Hope this clears that up for you.

I think you are right about writing it all down and working out what it means for me whether H comes back or not. Most nights I lie awake going over and over everything's that happened and what the potential outcomes could be. It doesn't help at all, and through my tiredness I begin to feel depressed. I don't want to go back on the anti-d's (I'm nowhere near as bad as I was), but at the moment I have too much time to keep thinking, rather than doing. I am being positive in going to the gym very regularly and eating healthily. Layli, it may be Ben for you, but I quite fancy Brad myself! But I do think this is something I should do.

Espoir you are right about the higgledy piggledy way this whole sorry mess has transpired. The most I could do when H was first home, was just be here. Sadly, even though he as BS should have been Plan A-ing, I tried to do this as I realised that I really did want to work at our M and see if we could put things right, and it was too late. If it had no effect on him whilst he was living at home, it would be even less effective with him living away and seeing OW - given that he thinks the M is over. Plan B is the way for me. I have not spoken to H in nearly a week. In some ways it seems much less, but in others it seems like a lifetime.

I have decided that I will contact OW. I will tell her that I do not consider my M to be over until H and I are DV and she is standing in the way. I don't think it will affect her that much, but the least it may do is make her feel uncomfortable. I will have to contend with H's anger though, but I think I will send him an adapted Plan B letter and explain in that why I thought it necessary to contact her i.e. to let her know that I am still married to him, and am not prepared to just give him up. Hmmm, have read this again, and it sounds a bit scary, maybe not!!

Neil, I hear what you are saying. I was set on my own course of destruction and H did not know, but I know the course that H may take himself but can do nothing about it - so although H did not know and I do, neither one of us for different reasons could/can do anything. I still maintain that if H had known about EA it would not have developed to PA. Still, in the wider scale of things it matters not. I truly believe what will be will be. H does not want a future with me at this time. He may change his mind, and if he does it will be something to evaluate then.

For now, onwards and upwards - if I am not around quite as much in the next few days, please do not worry. I spend far too much time here at the moment, and that fuels my over active imagination. I need to work on my pros and cons list, my Plan B letter (which Cerri over on JFO has given me some advice about) but tailored to our unique situation, whether to contact OW or not and I need to work on me.

You're all great, and I'm never far away. Thanks alot.

Lisa

Lisa,
I am thinking of you,keep us up to date. I am not sure what I think about you contacting OW. I have left 2 messages on OW's voicemail but toy with the idea of either phoning her at work or actually making appt to see her! The second message I left,I invited her to phone me but I admit it was not a very genune message. " since you're so keen on leaving messages on peoples ansaphones maybe you could phone mine and we can discuss this!" Obviously no answer to me but she phone H of course. She is such a caring OW-so anxious to warn him when I am showing signs of being unreasonable,paranoid etc.(!!!!!!!!!!!!)
But I digress. Whether you do is up to you-I would just say do it in such a way as to retain your own dignity.No fishwife shrieking.

Take care Lisa .

Deluded

Hi Lisa,
I read your post before leaving for work this morning but had no time to respond. I have a bit of time now--work is so busy I would like to scream.

Interesting that you said way back that you've always identified yourself more by what you do, than in the 'traditional' female way of wife/mother. Maybe I am different as I married young and didnt have a career of my own until recently. Thus my young adulthood time of developing an identity was as a wife and mother. (I had my education, but no career before marriage) I truly don't care at all about my career identity. I would trade it in a second to be back with my exH, and be a family again--and his wife. Sounds weird to some , for sure.

I just wanted to say that I so know how you feel. Espoir's words certainly touched me--thanks Espoir for understanding a bit how I feel, too---as well as Lisa and Jen Brown.

Espoir said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you are in quite a difficult spot. Your H didn't seem to Plan A you when he found out about the affair. He didn't look in himself to figure out why you might have gone to someone else to meet your needs. You were in withdrawal and very defensive initially, so you didn't really Plan A him until some time had gone by, by which time he had already withdrawn. It makes me think of Jen Brown's husband a bit, and of hopeful person's. These guys are BS, but they did contribute to the climate that produced the A. They are also unwilling to examine themselves and prefer to take a holier than thou approach.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How true in so many ways. You wised up right away,quit the A, and yet your husband still chose his path --for the time being. It is so understandable to see why you feel as you do.

I must say Lisa that the past six months have been a complete roller coaster ride for me. I do love my exH, and I still pray he can forgive me. I am MUCH STRONGER than I was 2-3 months ago, when I would cry at the drop of a hat, and feel so, so, low. As Neil said, it's a grieving process.

I don't have much wisdom to add, but my thought and prayers are with you in foggy London.

An old friend of mine was from Great Britain, near Liverpool --I believe. SHe always joked that she grew up 'under a cloud' so now she absolutely loves the warmth and brightness of our climate. To me, your climate sounds better!

Take care,
H_P

Thnaks so much for the definition. hope you got a chuckle out of it.
I really think the lists are a good idea, something I am working on myself now.
I am glad you are protecting yourself but not completely throwing in the towel. Just one other point to ponder, maybe he will get into an EA, discover that it wasn't all it was cracked up to be and maybe he can see things from your side and will realize how cool it was that you chose him over OM.
I don't know, just a thought, in the meantime we will have to work on getting rid of Jen and Jlo, hogging our dream men, gees.
Just kidding, don't want to be OW. But nice to think I could be there for Ben if she breaks his heart. LOL.
Fog induced fantasy land for the BS, I could write a book.
I am thinking of you everyday. I meant what I said about the Ab Fab marathon.
Love to you my friend.
Layli

Firstly Happy New Year Lisa - I'm just sorry that right now it seems less hopeful.

Only got back at the start of this week so taken a while to catch up but a few thoughts on what's been happening with you:

Pretty shoddy of your H to be so rude about your gift and the way he is treating you right now. You know I think he is probably taking out his feelings of inadequacy on you reasoning (in his mind) that by having an A you are the one who has made him feel inadequate.

You have talked a lot about contacting the OW - my advice would be not to bother. In her mind (and your H's) you are seperated and therefore he is a free agent (which I'll come back to in a minute). Therefore it is unlikely that she is going to take no notice of what you say. So will it help you? Well obviously I don't know whether it will or not and I'm sure if you do decide to contact OW you will do so tactfully and politely.

Now back to you and your H being seperated.... ok - I hope you don't take offence as it's not meant to cause it ok <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but...

you and your H are seperated. I know you are still married but I personally think there is a difference between having a R (usually termed an A) whilst the other party thinks the M is still in full swing and starting a R after agreeing (however reluctantly by one partner) to be apart.
Why?
Well I have thought long and hard about this myself. My WW always claimed (in the early days) that because she didn't start a PA until we had agreed (very reluctantly on my side) to live apart that it was not an A but a new R. Now I don't care what it's called but as I pointed out to her if she had met someone (that she did not know or only knew in passing) after we had seperated (or agreed to) that would be different. Why? Well in her case the OM was someone with whom she had become increasingly reliant upon emotionally during a period when she was unsure of her marriage and she let it develop into an A/new R. Therefore the OM had a direct influence on her decision to live apart from me.

Now all that said I know that your H had spent the one night with the OM (platonically he says - I say trust your heart) and so it may have influenced his decision to move out...

So - where am I going with all this you may ask??

OK - bear with me: if your H did base his decision to move out on one night with OW then any A/R they have will not last long at all. Why? Because his real reason for moving out was his confusion over your M. And a new woman will not remove that.

So - a quote that I got from on here or a book - and which I remind myself of often:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you want to be right? Or do you want to be married to this person?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have every right to feel incredibly hurt by your H's actions - and he will continue to deny them - but give it time. I think in some ways he perhaps has to do this whole flirting business (especially given that one of your issues is finding him attractive) but it's likely to be hard for him to go much further - if anywhere at all - with the OW.

I feel very hurt by the fact that the one barrier now remaining between me and WW is that she doesn't fancy me (I'll post an update soon). I have often been tempted to find someone to make me feel better about myself - someone who finds me attractive - its our human vanity. But you know what? When I have on a couple of occasions flirted with another W in the last 8 months or so since D-Day it has ended up reminding me exactly how much I love my WW. I haven't wanted to go any further and even flirting has made me feel bad. Maybe that will change if my WW doesn't decide to try and work on why the X-factor isn't there. I don't want to get divorced as I really believe marriage is for ever - but maybe I will change my mind on that too someday.

But even if your H does go further than flirting to build up his self-esteem (and I'm not condoning even flirting) he will very soon find that it doesn't build up his self esteem but makes him feel worse. Perhaps then he will realise that for his sake he needs to at least try and resolve the issues that exist between him and you. Because (and I believe this is why we go through all of this pain and hurt and trying rather than calling it quits straight away) at least trying to resolve the issues that caused the marriage problems in the first place will allow both parties to move forwards - hopefully together but if not together then at least still forwards and hopefully allow them to be more successful in any future Rs.

So at the end of my long ramble: don't lose heart in your M because of what is happening right now; remember that we are all individuals and can only work on ourselves; and if your H has any sense (which it sounds from the good moments that he might still have a bit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) he will realise that running off to any OW without fully resolving your M will not help him one bit in the long run.

take care and don't forget to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> simply because you are you

bowd