Still Seeking, Pepperband, JL...and others, I hope you have some great suggestions!

From reading the thread that SS suggested I realize (and not for the first time) that it is very true that I am highly defensive and difficult to approach. I can be very open and honest with strangers...but then there's really no emotional stakes at risk if they decide they don't like me or agree with me. But with family and friends I tend to often say the wrong thing or come off as defensive. I don't want to do this any more! I want to learn to keep my foot OUT of my mouth in the first place and avoid apologies and fence mending all the time.

Are there any good books to read that might help me put in to practice what it is I hope to accomplish?? Any thoughts on how to be more aware of what I'm doing BEFORE I do it, and not right in the middle or just after??

I will tell you what has worked for me. It has assisted me in becoming a better person at home and at work and with my family.

Be accountable! Know that it is NEVER about the other person. In all situations, look for your accountability and how you created it. It doesn't mean to be co-dependent or a doormat. Just take ownership in what you create. And in that, know that you have the POWER to create what you truly desire.

Good luck!

Read this the other day and have been thinking about it alot. Maybe it applies to you, maybe not. I might see if I can apply it in a couple of areas of my life. My mother drives me crazy too!
Don't know if I can do this or not but I'll try.....
"Do you play a musical instrument Susan?

Do you know about brain pathways? When a pianist becomes very good, it is because a brain pathway has been established by years and years of practice. The brain takes over automatically, and the pianist doesn't have to "think" about playing .... more like let go of consciousness and let the neuronal pathway move her fingers on the keyboard.

We develop brain pathways that give us an automatic emotional response .... like you do when you hear your mothers voice. If you hear her voice, your brain chemicals respond in their "usual" way ... and your emotional response is pre-determined.

You can use your conscious mind to change the response. it almost "hurts" at first, and feels like you're walking with your shoes on the wrong feet ... but, you can create a different neuron pathway response .... with practice.

Pepper"

Hey - it worked. I can't figure out quotes or links so did the old cut and paste.
DB

Hope4future,

You asked the hardest questions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I really don't know any books, but frankly I don't seem to have your problem. However, in many years of dealing with people I will tell you how I approach things and perhaps something will click.

First, when talking to people, I assume the best. In fact, the best defense I have ever see applied to someone who was trying to get to another was to accept what they say, thank them profusely, smile and act like everything they say is a compliment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Now, if it really was a compliment, you are cool.
If it wasn't it will drive them batty. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But, seriously I basically accept anything that someone tells me in a neutral position. It is neither a compliment nor a dig. I acknowledge their comment politely, a thank you or something, and then I move on. If I decide or know it is a compliment, I approach them later and thank them. This has two affects: 1. It let's them know I realize it is a compliment. 2. It let's them know I think this compliment is important enough for special acknowledgement and effort on my part.

The dig, I ignore. It is that simple.

I take the stance that I do my best to do the right thing. I will not defend that approach. If I have in fact erred I acknowledge it and apologize, but I NEVER defend.

I enjoy people and I enjoy talking to them and listening to them. I make it a point to ask at least two questions of them for each one they ask about me, and I always ask first. I simply enjoy hearing what people are up to. So that means I am on the offensive <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> never the defensive.

Finally, I am reminded of the Peter Sellers movie, the title of which eludes me. WHere he is thought to be a genius, when if fact he is rather slow. It is just that his answers are so ambiguous that they can be interpretted in any manner and usually people then proceed to answer their own profound questions. So he seems smart.

I think if you think about much of what you have said perhaps it is you that is projecting your feelings on to what people say. Don't do that.

Dog gone it H4F, make them insult you right out loud before you even acknowledge that they have less than good thoughts about you.

So much for advice. I wish I could really answer your question, but I suspect it is deeper than you have really mentioned here and I am not good enough to get that deep.

Think about this though. You don't have to defend what you don't acknowledge, you really don't have to accept an insult. Interesting isn't it? You can simply refuse to accept delivery and then it returns to sender.

God Bless,

JL

I'm fightn' alligators at work today ... and I'm supposed to start jury duty Monday ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

so ... Just wanted to say I see this ... and I'm 'a thinkin'. Back to you later.

Love.... yo mamaPep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

JL ... the movie...

"Being There"

A gem!

I've have had two similar threads going this week. I deal with a difficult mother.

The "brain pathways" response above was posted to me by Pepper. I had many good responses. You may want to check them out. There is useful information there for anyone regardless of the situation.

Good answer by JL too (I expected to see you on my thread, JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> He is a super smart guy. I think I was the first to ever question and find out his story. He was always helping others and never talking much about himself.)

I think a major hurdle for us is acknowledging that we need to be a little softer. With practice maybe it will come more natural...just like playing a musical instrument.

I am anxiously awaiting Peppers response to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ December 06, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Hi Susan,

Yes you were and actually it has happened only one other time. As for being smart, well I'd like to resemble that remark <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , but I have my doubts.

I will mosey over to see your thread Susan. I have been in the office sporatically so don't panic if I don't get into stuff too much.

I am anxious to see Pepper's answers as well. I do like the suggestion to be softer. It triggered the word I like: GRACE.

I think H4F, that if you can envision yourself as handling things softly and with grace, you just might have the image you need to keep from saying something you don't want to say.

God Bless,

JL

Becoming "emotionally available / approachable" ....

First of all ... what a wonderful question! Just asking this question demonstrates your growing approachability! (Remember ... I 'knew you' way back when....) {{ Ever notice how weird this word looks like with roach stuck in the middle??}} <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm trying really hard right now NOT to psychoanalyze you ... and I'm sorta failing. Knowing how you were raised .... by nearly 100% unapproachable / unavailable parents .... what you're doing in your life today seems like a friggin' miracle!!!! You are pushing hard at your gut's notion of "normal" intimacy which you experienced growing up ... and, realizing your current boundaries are working against you ... you are challenging your pre-set notions to a rumble. (??? World's longest run-on sentence???)

When you were a kid how did you survive? By being emotionally available? (NOT)

The following is from a small book "Struggle For Intimacy" ... which is written for COAs ... but may be applicable , in part, to you.

"Fear of abandonment is very strong in COAs and differs from fear of rejection. Adult children of alcoholics seem to be able to handle rejection and adjust to it. Fear of abandonment, however, cuts a lot deeper because of childhood experiences.

The child who experiences living with alcoholism grows into an individual with a weak and very inconsistent sense of self. This is a very, very critical self which has not had the nurturance it needed. It is a hungry self and, in many ways, a very insecure self.

You never knew when, or if, your parents would be emotionally available to you. You experienced unpredictability and inconsistency. Once the drinking began, you simply did not exist. Your needs would not be met until the drinking episode and any accompanying crisis were over. There was no way to predict when this would occur. What a terrible, terrible feeling. No matter what you did to try to prevent it, it would happen anyway.

Some children living in this situation continued trying to get their needs met, and others gave up entirely. "

H4F ..... you are brave and wise to challenge this part of yourself. It was NOT safe for you to be emotionally available for so much of your life. You are not married to your father. You are NOT your mother.

Let me nudge you a little with a provoking question...

Are you emotionally available to your son? .... explain your position.

Love and kisses,

Pepper

<small>[ December 07, 2002, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Forgive me for stating something so obvious but I beleive that in this case it's worth doing so.

ACCEPT the fact that there are going to be people which will have totally opposite opinions on many subject matters than yours and ACCEPT the fact that they will NOT be swayed by your arguments no matter how right you are. Learn to agree to disagree and move on.

It will take time and patience (like JL is fond of saying) but once you build a solid track record, then people that might not have approached you in the past because of fear that you would bite their heads off, will start to come to you because they'll feel safe with you.

I hope this helped you H4F.

I knew Pepper would know where I was coming from...maybe because she's "known" me for 3 years, or maybe just because I hear the hints when she posts to me.

I think some of the rest of you misunderstand me a little. I don't bite peoples head off, I'm far far from unapproachable...I allow others to have their own opinions and I'm VERY accountable for myself and my actions, and most of all their consequences. I'm not a bear...I'm not hard to get close to as a friend. I actually have many many friends and many of my customers like me very much. I'm easy to get along with, I have a great sense of humour, I'm fairly low maintainence and I am a very giving person...to ANYONE. I like sharing and caring.

The idea of me having "grace" is a difficult one to even fathom...but I do believe in a sense it is what I seek TO A DEGREE. I'm a tough broad...not in a manly or pushy way...I'm just a really hard worker and don't ask for help too often....I also don't take any guff. I didn't have many people to depend on as a kid so I came to depend on myself. I changed my struts out of my car when I was in college...I can change a tire to this day if it's a necessity... I've learned to allow others to help me...I'm getting much much better at that. But emotional availability and grace...those things are a little harder for me to do.

Pepper, actually the day I posted this I was observing my son at daycare with the other kids. I AM emotionally available for the most part with my son...letting him in took months and the first time I told him I loved him I broke in to tears. What a wonderful thing it must feel like to be cradled and rocked and absolutlely know you are loved. It brings tears to my eyes to think about it...it hurts inside (I suppose it's the inner child)...but yet to think about being cradled today in someones arms being loved...feels dangerous and uncomfortable. I know the reasons why, I just haven't found the answers as to how to get past that.

Anyway...I digress. Watching my son with other children...and quite frankly with strangers...I could learn so much from him. He doesn't fear others. He might be shy on occassion, but it doesn't bother him to speak up about what he needs, he has no problem letting you know his feelings on any subject and there's no question of his feelings of self worth. Granted, he doesn't always know when to keep him mouth shut!! But he is VERY good at loving and being loved.

My husband is very loving and warm and affectionate with him as well. So I know he is capable of it...as am I. But we've both come from emotionally unavailable homes. We both learned to stifle our feelings to keep the peace. I went a step further and gathered a lot of anger which I'd use to fight back with. I'm better in that area, but it still seems to be a natural defense mechanism for me. Maybe because my dad was an alcoholic, maybe because he was brilliant and played mind games with me and I used it as my defense to get him to back off, maybe because I was an only child and there were no other adults or children in our home to help take the brunt of things on occasion. In hubbys case he just disappeared in amoungst the other 9 children.

Anyway, yes for the most part I am emotionally available to my son. I feel his love for me, he doesn't attack my sense of self worth and actually he's very good at showing appreciation and love. I have nothing to fear by loving him except the possibility of losing him...but I have managed to not let that fear prevent me from loving him completely. I don't know what I fear from opening up the same way with my husband and closest friends.

I see hubbys tentativeness with me, and I can even look back and remember things I've said or even expressions on my face that let people know that their gifts or ideas or whatever weren't as good as I would have done...or weren't the "right" thing. Hubby used to punish me by not speaking to me when he was upset...and I used to punish him with pouting or facial expressions or just plain complaining and blaming. I'm soooo much better at not doing that, but still not quite there. Hubby doesn't "punish" me at all any more. He's gotten very good at opening up with me.

Shoot...the offices are closing...I've got to run. It's getting late anyway and I need to get home to give hubby and son some TLC...I could use some myself along with a strawberry daquiri!! CHEERS!!!

Have you tried to ask how other people view you thru their eyes?

What does this beautiful and loving child understand about the world that H4F does not ??

Ummm...that toads don't REALLY give you warts, but you still don't want to lick them?

Hey Pepper, did you ever read Torn Asunder? I think I remember you saying you have. I read until 2am this morning and found it to be both really interesting and right on. Well, I just picked it back up a little while ago and started in to Chapter 5. It's all about me!! It's all about the reactions and poor anger management etc... It listed 5 things a parent might do to a child and the response the child carries forth into adulthood...my father did 4 out of the 5 listed. Anyway, I'm going to ingest some more...just thought I'd mention it.

I'm still thinking on the last 2 questions issued to me...I have some ideas and comments, but not a solid enough answer to post on them yet. I'll be baaaaaack!

Yes, I found "Torn Asunder" to be very useful and educational.

Take you time.

Dear Hope4future,

This post intrigued me because i've found myself to be not emotionally available these days...at least toward my H. I give my all to my kids....and my mom......and even to my work at times...... but when it comes to giving to my H, I hold back.

The counselor once asked why I couldnt 'put all my eggs in one basket'......by trusting totally in my H...and i said....."well, its like a dog... if you stick your hand out and get bit enuff times, you just cant stick your hand out without making it easy to pull back".

My H had an anger problem and I just never knew when he was going to have an outburst.....so I would just become numb to things with him. I hate confrontations.

I guess there is a fine line between.......setting boundaries..and becoming more reachable. And I need to do both.

I guess its a question of trusting myself and trusting in him again. Maybe you don't trust the people that you can't get close to? umm, or vice versa, you can't get close to the people you don't trust? I think thats my case.

anyway, good luck....i will read more of the post....

Ok, so I asked my son what he knew that I didn't. He said something about the spaceship thingy on the blanket. I'm sure it's a brilliant analogy...I just don't get it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actually this morning spoke volumes to me. I woke up from nightmares of moving into an old dirty house with orange shag carpeting. My dads suicide note was there on a pile of blankets he had used as a temporary bed, evidently after he'd sold his bed in preparation. I could smell the blankets. They smelled like old sweat...like they hadn't been washed in a while. I was trying to clean the carpets just to try to make it cleaner. It all felt really icky.

My son, on the other hand, sprung from bed this morning and told me he had a dream too. He dreamt that he and his daycare provider were flying together on a magic paper...and he said that another little girl there got to ride along too.

Dad asked him why he didn't get to go, and he said there wasn't enough room! LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anyway...I think what son has that I don't is that he knows he's loved and he feels safe. Even if I can never achieve these things...I'm soooo glad to have hopefully broken that cycle for him.

"I was trying to clean the carpets just to try to make it cleaner."

Yes... I can see that. You are doing a sort-of housecleaning within yourself.

Pepper

H4F,

I a few other thoughts. One, I think you have reached an important realization. Your Son is open because he knows you and your H will always love him and do your best to help him. He is confident of his safety net/blanket <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

So let us consider you. You are independent. You can do whatever needs to be done. You can take care of yourself. All of these are admirable attributes BUT...

Are you using these attributes as a shield or as a safety net? I think you have used them as a shield to protect you BEFORE you are hurt. Your son uses his protect to help AFTER he is hurt. He doesn't fear much, but whatever happens YOU AND H will take care of him.

My point. Perhaps you need to review how you apply your strengths. Instead of preventing something from happening, why not have confidence that you can survive whatever will happen? Because of your strength you can afford to be open, you can be a bit vulnerable, you can trust that things will work out OK, because you can take care of trouble if it happens.

H4F, your childhood sounds awful. But, it had a gift wrapped in it. You just need to use the gift to help you rather than shield you.

THat is my $0.02. Hope it helps.

God Bless,

JL