KS - I can relate to what you are going thru. I have had issues like yours all my life. I think it comes from my childhood, it was a mess. I have been searching for answers too, but you get reactions like this when you try to talk to people about it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Let me first say that a lot of these posts I did not read. If the first sentance (or paragraph) was clueless, self hating, judgemental or generaly f-ed up thinging (as determined by me) I didn't read on.

That said - thanks so very much toAnne, Cali, Faith, Neesha, Willget, Alberta, Maggie, ark, Sue, Pepper (and her husband) and Findingaway.

There's an interesting conflict of theories that occurs between 12-step and MB. 12-step suggests awareness of action and making a change (without telling your partner necessarily). MB says radical honesty. We'll I decided to split the difference.

SG was actually on a shoot last night and we didn't get a chance to talk until this morning. I told him that I was excited about Chicago, but had some concerns about temptations (without being specific). He was supposed to go, but his son will be in town. Having spoken to him about it (and sharing about it in appropriate places)i'm feeling much better.

I also spoke to me friend Eric this morning and I told him "i'm so excited to see you, but i'm not comfortable with the sexual overture. That feature of our relationship has been gone for a long time so it's a bit strange that it's suddenly back." I was honest with him and told him where I was with all of this. And spoke with him about my desire to be honorable where SG is concerned.

He apologized (over and over and over). We're meeting for dinner in the city with some other friends.

Alls well that ends well.

<small>[ December 11, 2002, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>

Pepper,

you'll probably be the only person who understands this but:

I was having a conversation with my sponsor last night. She remided me about the bit about going to the hardware store for oranges. To a certain degree that's what MB is for me. This site is safest when kept as a spectator sport in my particular case. People here can be so tied up in their own muck that I don't think healing can be found here unless you're willing to be scraping and/or servile if you're TOW. Or even an ex.

Lesson learned.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>Pepper,

you'll probably be the only person who understands this but:

I was having a conversation with my sponsor last night. She remided me about the bit about going to the hardware store for oranges. To a certain degree that's what MB is for me. This site is safest when kept as a spectator sport in my particular case. People here can be so tied up in their own muck that I don't think healing can be found here unless you're willing to be scraping and/or servile if you're TOW. Or even an ex.

Lesson learned.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please don't feel that way, Katie. I know you received flames, but there are a few here that know you and really want to not only help you, but also value your perspective as a FOW.

You have also helped me in so many ways to see the other side of things. I appreciate that so much. Just know that.

Lv,
Jo

Jo-
So that you know, there are some people here who have given me mountains of insight. You are one. And that is a gift.

At the same time there are those here who will always be ready to throw stones until i'm ready to bemoan my state as an xOW. That's exhausting (not to mention bullsh-t) in my opinion.

I don't hate that I was TOW for so many years and probably never will.

What I have learned here is that if I place my heart on my sleeve and come here asking for help i'm a slut or horney or twisted until I apologize for my past. Well that's just a load of crap.

My opinion, most WS only cheat because we can. Becasue we know that we've chosen partners who either love us so much or are unwilling (for whatever reason) to not see the infidelity. If I were to cheat he'd #1-look the other way or #2-plan A his butt off. Why on earth would a WS-type choose anybody else.

WS by defination requires craftyness of the highest order (and/or a certain kind of partner). Now maybe i'm bashing the way I was bashed. I'm sure you guys will point it out to me if I am.

Weather it's here, in an aa meeting or where ever i'm willing to examine my part in my mess. But i'm not willing to be beat of for telling my truth.

I'm willing to take the good with the bad (and there was some good in this thread). It's the sorting through it all that really really sucks.

Hi Katie,

I may get my story wrong here. It is because I don't pay much attention.

Isnt' there a story in the bible or something like it, where there is this prostitute who is being stoned by the "christians" because of her ways. Who intervenes but a true christian, Jesus.

Your past is irrelevant. It is the present and future that matter. I wonder, how many out here have been around the block, so to speak a few times before getting married. How many may have dated a MM or MW and did not know it. I know I did. When I found out, it was over. His W found out the next day. (not by me, by the same person who told me he was married). I never knew if I should have apologized or not. The same thing happened to a friend of mine. She found out because she was shopping and saw him across the street with his W and kids. She let him have it with both barrels. Even though you were a willing xOW, what matters is that you are not one now.

We all can be tempted. I know in my unhappiness with my H's A and his disrespect of me, I have entertained the thought of my own A. Once I even told myself "I deserve some happiness". (very low day I was having) Reality set in for me, and I remembered my children. Beside, how happy would I be sneaking around. I thougth this because I had decided that I would not D my H and break my kids hearts, but I wanted some happiness. In the light of day I felt different.

Stay in a group of friends, safety in numbers and remember to be true to yourself.

"I'm willing to take the good with the bad."

Me too .... as long as the bad is at least trying to be better!!! LOL!

Pepper

KS,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My opinion, most WS only cheat because we can. Becasue we know that we've chosen partners who either love us so much or are unwilling (for whatever reason) to not see the infidelity. If I were to cheat he'd #1-look the other way or #2-plan A his butt off. Why on earth would a WS-type choose anybody else.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This comment struck me. Just a question out of curiousity - would you go straight to plan b or end relationship entirely if you were cheated on by someone that you cared for very much?

Tell me about the partners described above - How do you know? What signs do you look for? I am obviously that person you describe so I want to know more.

Your insite here on this board is valuable and I hope that you continue here. Some of what you say is hard to hear and I don't always agree but then I don't always agree with other posters as well.

D

KS,
Don't automatically assume that I'm judging you. I was trying to identify with what you are going through. If you are as open as you say you are, you would read what everyone wrote and not judge others' point of view as skewed thinking simply because it differs from yours...

It's not like God is sitting up there waiting to bash you over the head for sin. Consequences take care of that part. That's all I was mainly trying to say--temptation doesn't reveal all the consequences of sin. God is forgiving. His mercy endures forever!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WillGetThruThis:
<strong>would you go straight to plan b or end relationship entirely if you were cheated on by someone that you cared for very much?</strong>

It really depends on a lot of different things. If my partner came to me and said "I did X and i'm sorry" or even "I did X and I don't understand why, but i'm willing to look at it" i'd be 100% willing to work on it. If I found out about the affair from someone else or if I suspected and they denied it - immediate plan B. If for no other reason then i'd need time and space to sort it all out in my brain without hearing their bull. IMO cheating shows a lack of respect and I refuse to be disrespected in my house unless I choose to be.

Understand that i've been on both sides of this equation. I've cheated and i've allowed cheating under certain circumstances. But that's a whole other thread.

<strong>Tell me about the partners described above - How do you know? What signs do you look for? I am obviously that person you describe so I want to know more. </strong>

IMHO usually the partner who will let the cheater cheat is the partner who preceives the cheater as more powerful than them. Or is gaining more than their loosing in the relationship.

Again, MHO, cheating is not about sex. Just like drinking is not about booze and eating disorders are not about food. The sex, booze or food are merely symptoms. They are the forms that rage, depression, faithlessness and lovelessness take. The answer to leading a different life is not just giving up OP but finding peace, happiness, faith and love.

These are things that the BS can not provide (not that that's their job anyway). It's an inside job. I think that a BS can assist the WS in leading a differnt like but only when and if the WS wants to.
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ December 12, 2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>

Will get-

I had an interesting conversation with my broker the other day. Thought i'd share it with you.

I (on occasion) write an advice column for OW. Usually those who want out and are not sure how to get there. We here having discussion about my column when he says "I love my wife to death and I want to spend the rest of my life with her. She's beautiful, wonferful, etc. At the same time I can't imagine spending the next 50 years and not having another woman. It just seems crazy to me." So I asked him "what do you think she'd do if you cheated and she found out?"

His reply, "oh she wouldn't kick me out. I know that she wouldn't. She'd be hurt and upset and it would take some time to heal. You know what's crazy, i'm her best friend and as her best friend i'm sad to know that she wouldn't kick me out. I want her to be the kind of woman who just wouldn't stand for that kind of thing. As her husband though, i'm glad to know that i'd get a second chance."

By the time we quit taking he had decided to go home and say to her "I want to spend the rest of my life with you, but i'm afraid that i'll be tempted to cheat because I can't imagine never having another partner."

I'm not sure how it worked out.

I think that sometimes WS are like bad little kids wanting desperately for someone to put their foot down and dreading it at the same time.

KS - You are really making me think today! And I'm not sure I like it!!!

So basically, they want us to parent them? Say stop it, or else, and then mean it? Do you think this stems from a too lenient childhood? I wonder.....

I gave my H a second chance and now a third chance. Am I stupid? Obviously I'm not strong enough?
Dazed and Now Dizzy

Good grief!!! Now I'm thinking too.

You know, when my ex-H cheated the first time, something that he said really stuck with me.

After D-Day, I hadn't kicked him out .... and he REALLY wanted me to so he and OW could have massive alone time. He was so blatant and in-my-face about having the affair after D-Day and was doing horrible things like introducing her to our friends.

FINALLY I asked him to please leave, and you know what he said to me:

"I'm so glad you asked me to leave, I really respect you for finally doing it, because before that, I wasn't sure if I respected you"

Katie, what do you make of THAT?

Jo

KS,

You haven't found it yet and I don't know if you ever will. Your trying to be satisfied by something and rationalizing it to your satisfaction. Don't you want to experience a love so strong that you really wouldn't desire to be with anyone else? You haven't felt that way about anyone yet, Sorry for SG. You only want to see the amount of love and forgiveness someone can give you and then not respect them for it. What a sad life to lead.

KS,

I am glad you have continued to contribute to your thread. I find your insight fascinating.

My husband has a lifelong habit of "connecting" with women. According to Steve Harley H has a gift of being able to demonstrate to women how easy it is to meet their ENs.

His PA was with a 20 year friend; who knows how long it was an EA before becoming a PA. The PA ended when H was too guilty to continue. However he didn't stop contact with her completely until he told me about the affair and I insisted on it.

In addition he has had at least 3 other EA's however this was before MB; so neither of us recognized it as such. We both just noticed different behavior from these women. H has said that the EA's were one-sided on their part; however he takes responsibility for "their connection".

It's been a tough habit for him to break. 2 of the 3 women are still in our life and we see them almost on a daily basis. Through coaching with Steve he is learning about the tiny choices and decisions he makes that lead him to either connect with other women on an emotional basis or connect with me.

Any thoughts for me? Also H was sad he had to let go of the OW so abruptly. He felt badly for her on many levels. However he says he understand the necesity of No Contace. Any insight on her? Thanks, CSue

Jo-
What do I think about it. We'll i'm not suprised at all - that's what I think about it.

I can't say that all Ws want to be treated like children. Just the ones that I know or have known about have.

Long before I knew about TOW I formed my own support group of OW. Basically we used to cry to one another about our MM. There was an astonishing amount of similarities in the men.

For my part when I chased my MM and tried to make him be a good boy he treated my like dirt. It was only when I got a life of my own and let him know that he could come or go that I really didn't care that he became an obedient MM. What's ironic is that having a life of my own lead me to the understanding that I really didn't need him as much as I thought I did.

Look I can't sit here and give marriage advice as i've never been married (only engaged a few thousand times). But my experience has been this - when I was with a partner who let me cheat I grew to hate them. I don't know why. And looking back it seems sad to me.

I still struggle with the desire to stray. If I were to stray and SG let it happen I would loose respect for him. My cheating is my problem to work on (and I do). But if he sat back and plan A'd me (like I suspect that he would) I would loose respect. I'm conflicted all over the place on this one as you can probably tell. But that's my truth.

edited to bold disclaimer

<small>[ December 12, 2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>

KS - You said once you acted like you had a life that's when MM shaped up and acted more obedient. (like a dog? just wondering...)
However, I have always been the type of wife to let my husband do exactly what he wanted. Want to stay at the bar later? Go ahead. Want to go to the gambling boat? Go ahead. I was THE coolest wife around. Hold on Loosely by .38 Special was my motto. But where did THAT get ME?

2 affairs.
DB

Dazed-
Cool theory, but it sounds like you don't really have a .38 special.

I've gotta tell you guys that i'm not sure how comfortable I am giving advice on here. This is MB, not the world according to KatieScarlett.

That said i'll tell you what I think, but it's just my opinion. so take it for what it's worth.

CSue-

Your story reminds me of an old AA fable. I'm probably gonna screw this up, but you'll get the idea:

A guy is walking down the street when he falls into a deep hole. He never saw it coming and can't figure how to get out. A friend helps him out and he's on his way.

Next day same guy walks down the same street, SEES the hole and still falls in.

Third day, same guy walks down the same street, sees the hole, tries to to jump over and still falls in.

Fourth day, same guy walks down the same street, tries to walk around the hole and gets hit by a car.

Fifth day the guy walks down a different street.

Your husband, it seems, is still jumping over holes. These woman are just trying to get their needs met. Doing that with married men is like seeing the hole and falling in.

There are areas in my life where i'm walking down a different street. Where OM are concerned, i'm still trying to jump holes.

It's a process.

edited to bold disclaimer

<small>[ December 12, 2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>

IMO, posters here seeking advice from KS are making a mistake. She may have some insight to her own situation but it seems almost desperate of BS's to seek "guidance" or advice from KS. Please be careful.

I tried to stay outta this one but geezzzzz girls! what in the heck are you all thinking reading and taking advice from a girl who was the OTHER WOMAN hellooooooooo??!??!??
if you're looking for marriage building advice you ought to read the Harley books and this site but taking advice from the other woman is like letting a fox in your henhouse!
it's cool that you all can be friends but this is the woman who was in your husbands bed and not to mention a pretentious girl with too many airs but whatever.
personally I'm a Harley kind of girl and I'll ignore this and write it off as F O G creeping in