Please note that I did add this disclaimer to my last post

I've gotta tell you guys that i'm not sure how comfortable I am giving advice on here. This is MB, not the world according to KatieScarlett.

That said i'll tell you what I think, but it's just my opinion. so take it for what it's worth.

Hi Katie,

I have respect for you. I have noticed that you have put up with alot from some out here.

You are no longer an OW. You are in your own R, that you value and want to work. You want to know, what everyone else wants to know. How do you keep your spouse, SO, from straying.

To the two posters who decided to discount KS, that is your choice. However, you also do not have to disrespect those who choose to communicate with KS and who want to hear her perspective on things. If you do not want to hear her, do not read hear post.

As I said, I think you showed tremendous disrespect to those who want to post with KS. They are not children who need to be told who they can talk to and who they cannot talk to. So, please respect them and not insult their intelligence. I feel a BS can learn alot from a FOW who is willing to share their experiences. Now, you do not have to share my view. I am not asking you to share my view. I am an open person who is willing to learn all I can to save my own M.

KS,

Great analogy! FWH is learning to walk down a different street. This has been an education for both of us. I APPRECIATE your perspective. You have a wisdom and maturity about you, and you have guts to stick around here.

People can choose to learn from others; their successes and failures - or feel free to make mistakes on their own. It's simply a matter of choice. I'm pretty much the most non-judgemental person I know.

KS - you have a perspective I've been curious about. Thank you, CSue

KS,
Is there such a thing as a BS being "too nice" or "too forgiving" or making things "too easy" for WS? I read what you said about losing respect, but is there more to it than that? Does it make the addiction or temptation stronger because the WS wants to "test" the waters to see how far they can push the BS?

I'm very curious and appreciate your thoughts and concur with the postings to allow us BS (who are not twinkie eating idiots - as gloryb would put it) to choose what we take into our own daily lives ourselves, rather than ignoring or avoiding something that a FOW has to say.

onlyU,

The short answer is yes. I honestly don't know what to tell you. As long as I wanted to be a wayward partner I was. I think the BS only has so much power in these things.

As a wayward partner I respected partners who demanded respect. That didn't mean that I was ready to remain in the relationship, but I at least respected them.

Folks on MB are on here trying to save their marriage. A noble goal in my book. Personally, I don't think that's always possible.

So don't look to me for the magic bullet to make your WS do the right thing. It has to be their decision. When I had lost enough, suffered enough and gone down far enough I was ready to make a change. Sometimes I looked around for my partner to be there and they weren't. In many cases they had moved on and made better lives for themselves without me.

I'm NOT saying leave your marriage. If you want to save it maybe the MB way is better than mine, i'll give you that.

For myself I need to keep myself in a household where people show each other respect. Keeping a partner who didn't treat me right did not accomplish that goal. But keep in mind - I AM NOT MARRIED! I don't know that my thinking would be different if I were. I'd fight like hell to make my marriage work, but if my guy couldn't find it within himself to do right by me he'd have to go. Easier said than done for sure.

Once upon a time I was engaged to a man that I loved with all my heart. I busted my butt to do the right things and I did. After a time (for whatever reason) he would not come home when he said he would. OW? Who knows. I asked and never got a straight answer. Finally I said "you can't stay here." And I made him leave. As is usually the case, when he got himself together he came back, but it was too late.

My suggestion - work on yourself. Plan A yourself (not in a selfish way). Just be the best person that you know how to be, then I think you'll see clearly what you need to do or you and your family.

I'm outta here guys.

Good night.

Interesting thread going here ..... Katie I realize that this is just your opinion as are ALL the other posts here. Thats the great part about this forum .... we can exchange ideas and learn from each other. I personally take what I think will benefit me, put some things on the back burner and say maybe and trash the rest.

I have been given some new things to think about as I have looked at relationships from a different perspective as a result of comming to MB especially posts like this. Recently, I joined alanon where the focus is on me, not the alcoholic WH). To really work the steps I have to look at my part. If I keep looking at myself thru the same pair of glasses, I'll keep getting the the same results. So for now, I'm trying on new glasses.

On dday, I said it was over & had every intention of filing for DV. At church a deacon prayed with me & we talked and I felt a little different. After that I found several websites about A's which floored me, I didn't know anything like that existed !!! After reading Dear Peggy, I decided to wait at least a year before making any major decision. Then I found MB. I'm greatful that I didnt just DV, as I have grown. All along my self worth didnt' depend on WH so I was ok. He didn't live at home so I didn't have to deal with him thru all the pain and anquish. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'm rambling on... I'll stop !!!!

D.

I gave myself a year to figure out what I really

KS~~~

To me .....

being maried is sacred. It is part of my relationship with God. And, like my relationship with God, the human elements in my marriage are imperfect.

To me ....

being married is the essence of family. It's how I was raised, and how I was loved as a child. Two married parents who stick things through, even the tough things.

I agree with you ... a relationship totally without respect is as dead as a fish head separated from the fish. Where and when there is total disrespect ... now that's the million-dollar question! Let me tell you how I see this:

When Pepper has lost respect for herself for staying with an imperfect partner .... that's when the fishes' head has separated from the fish! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I can lose respect for my man from time to time (that's the nature of living with an imperfect being) ... but, if my respect for PEPPER becomes too distant for too long, I can not live that way.

In that way, KS, you and I may be different, I think. The Chicago temptation you considered would have cost ME my own self-respect, and that is a no-brainer for me.

I think I'm a couple of decades older than you, and, when I was younger, I did some immensely disrespectful things TO MYSELF ... which turned out to be very costly lessons. This is how I have come to realize the price of "being a bad girl".

KS, you have lost respect for the partner(s) that allowed you to cheat .... how did you maintain your self-respect???

Love ya, Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ December 13, 2002, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

This is what I have learned over the past few days.

I tend to examine these situations in a vaccuum. And when I look at it that way i'm screwed.

I'm honestly a little suprised at the reaction that i've gotten here. Truth is when I have cheated I never spoke about it. I just did it. Talking about it first is huge progress for me and for that i'm really happy.

SG and I had barely spent anytime together in the last few days. Last night I insisted that we turn off the tv's and spend time together. What a wonderful recharge.

He was holding me last night and I just thought "no way." There's no way I could hurt this precious man. I don't know how I could hurt this man and still like myself.

Like I said before. It's a process.

I'm glad that I talked about it. It sucks that just talking ruffled such feathers here. But i'm still glad that I processed it.

<small>[ December 13, 2002, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>

KS
I'm sooo glad to hear that!!

Still Happy

You're ignoring me KS, and that's fine, do whatever you have to do... It might be my delivery that you can't stand, or my core beliefs too similar to your family of origin so you lump me in with "them," or maybe to you it seems like I'm judging when I'm really not.

You must admit we have both formed opinions about each other but I'm still trying to understand your thought process, which oftimes comes across to me as extremely shallow--JUST being honest... In any case, if you're still reading, I do have one burning question or maybe two...

I just don't understand that if one does not embrace deep respect for God's Laws, what do they use as a moral compass? I mean, you said you were tempted and you need help. But how do you get tempted to do something wrong if you decide what is right for you as you go along through life?

I hope this is not coming out wrong. I just wonder, how you measure right from wrong without the moral compass (for lack of better words) of God's Laws? I mean, technically you are not married to the single guy and have no intentions of marrying him since there is no real value in marriage to you, right? So how come you can't just do whatever you want without any guilt or remorse? How is it cheating when you really aren't 100% committed anyways? I mean, you know?

Without God in the equation, who determines the guidelines for you? Society? Your conscience? What?

Isn't our conscience is how God speaks to us to guide us in choosing right from wrong? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

BTDT-
Oh lord how I am loathed to resond to anything you write. I sit here and think these thoughs, write these words understanding from the door that i'm probably going to piss you off. For that reason 90% of what you write I actually don't read past the first sentance. It's too much enegry.

I find your posts to be so bibliocentric that they're irrelevant (not to mention annoying) to me. Plainly put, we don't speak the same language. So I honestly don't know how to answer your question in a way that will make since to you. I will try.

IMHO-there is a GIANT difference between "Christian law" and "God's law". They're NOT opposites. Just different. God's law being more expansive. I do NOT embrace Traditional Christian Law. I do, however, embrace God's law. The natural order of things in the universe.

It's not like I didn't know that being with this guy would be wrong. Sure I know it's wrong. But I wanted it still.

Booze (for me) is wrong. That doesn't mean that I won't from time to time crave it. Will it screw me up - sure. Is that a risk i'm willing to take? That's the real question.

Ever been on a diet and slipped? Same thing here.

The way I understand it Christian law says: you sleep with this other person you have sinned. Brought shame on yourself, your family, you get hit by a bus while in a state of sin you die and go to hell.

Law of universal order (karma) says: you sleep with this other person you go in knowing that that's a choice that has consequences. Those consequences being your partner might leave. You might get VD, etc. You choose an action, you choose the consequences that come with it.

If you choose an action and you don't think it's wrong then you let it play out. If the consequences work for me, than fine. If not, then I need to choose differently next time.

If I know an action is wrong and I still choose it then whatever comes with it is my hell. (Do dying necessary.)

For that reason, before making a choice it's not uncommon for me to need to process it. Sometimes with others, sometimes on here. Maybe that's why some so-called christians freaked out. If the rules say X, you do X.

Maybe Christianity is simpler. You have the "rules" all laid out for you. No fuss no muss. I'm not the one to let someone else's interpertation of the rules fly for me. Plus I happen to think that some of the rules are just plain bogus. Just my opinion.

My relationship with God is personal and is one that works for me. She and I understand one another perfectly.

As a Caveat-

No, I don't have to have every expereince to know that something won't work for me. I am able to learn from others and adapt those experiences into my behavior. That's called God-given common since.

So I make it my business to ask smart/experienced people when processing a decision. (Hopefully they don't freak out and immediately condem me to hell <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) The way I see it it's my job to continually seek information.

Hi KS,
Just wondering about this
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Law of universal order (karma) says: you sleep with this other person you go in knowing that that's a choice that has consequences. Those consequences being your partner might leave. You might get VD, etc. You choose an action, you choose the consequences that come with it.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from the BS view, I didn't have a choice in what happened to me. My H chose for me to have VD from his OW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> My H chose to break my heart <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I chose to sleep with my partner of 15 years who professed to love me, why do I get the same consequences. That tells me the law of the univere is somewhat screwed up.

BTW, even though reading your posts hurts me as BS, I do respect your honesty and I think you have a lot of guts to post. Thanks

KS, ... I did notice in the beginni g of your post.. which I just scanned.. so I don't have all the info.

...that your male friend who you are considering cheating with, that holds a torch for you, etc. etc. knows your bf does not perform a sex. act that you like.. and offered to do it....

I say, don't discuss your sf life with males.. and if you are in a serious relationship.. don't talk to or communicate with, etc.. .with anyone who can interfere with the relationship, or would try to.

I know it is nice to have flirty male attention, but frankly, no place for it when hyou are committed.

I am not trying to be mean, just frank. To change the ways things are in your life, you must change the way you deal with commitment.

hugs and hope, HOney

Honey-
Thank you. Just figured that one out recently.

Swtbonbon-
I am so sorry that my words caused you pain. That was certainly not my intension.

Again, I can only tell you about my experience and what I have learned so far. To answer your question. Why does any bad thing happen to any good person? Did God fail, is someone out to get you, karmic debt? Know knows?

Personally, when something like that happens to me I have been taught to ask myself (even through tremendous heartbreak) what is it that I am meant to learn from this situation? The karma is transmuted (changed) simply by asking oneself the question and being an honest spiritual seeker.

I don't understand what consequences have to do with it. Dishonesty, cheating, etc. are wrong - and it makes no difference whether you get caught or not. It is no less wrong if there are no consequences. For me, as an atheist, it is not a question of "god's law" or "christian law" or "karma." If you can't choose right over wrong unless there there are consequences, whether before or after you die, then you are acting out of fear of punishment, not out of morality. Right and wrong does NOT change from day to day for atheists or anyone else.

Bumped for Terrified. Lexxxy suggested reading the threads regarding "respect".

Lv,
Jo

<<<However, I have always been the type of wife to let my husband do exactly what he wanted. Want to stay at the bar later? Go ahead. Want to go to the gambling boat? Go ahead. I was THE coolest wife around. Hold on Loosely by .38 Special was my motto. But where did THAT get ME?>>>

dazed, I did exactly the same thing. Don't keep the leash too short. Don't treat him like I'm his mother. Trust him and let him do what makes him happy. And where did that get me? Waiting alone while he went out and had a great time with the girls, all the while keeping it from me and treating me like I was his mother.

I don't know what the answer is. If you trust them, and treat them like you want to be treated, you will be taken for granted and walked on like a doormat. If you want to be respected and not shut out of half their life, you're a crazy colossal ***** who needs to be put in her place.

I don't know what the answer is.

WOW!! I cannot believe what I just did. I spent 15 minutes reading this post. I am shocked and stunned....

First of all, I am in somewhat understanding of why this post was posted. Here at MB, people are seeking help and support, not to be torn apart by others, and as hard it is for us who have been betrayed to hold our toungs this is an open discussion board. For you to come here and pour your heart and soal to disclose something like this takes alot of guts. But, for some to tear you down when all you wanted was some direction is not right.

For my advise to you, you need to look inside youself and really find out what you want and why. You need to figure out what is more important to you. Temtation is why we are all here, itis a part of being human but it is how we all deal with is what is important. I must admit that all of us have had some type of temtation at some point in our lives and some of us struggle more than others, whether it is sex, alch, cigs, gamb, what-not. So now we have to decide what to do with it. Give in to it and have regrets, or take that high road and take it by the horns and take control back over your life.

These are some hard decisions to make and you are here for support and maybe some insite from others without be ridiculed (sp?)

We here are all very hurting right now and are in the worst places in our lives right now trying to rebuild or just get support if we cannot rebuild. There are alot of emotionally driven responses and I totally understand them all because I am emotionally here with them all.

I wish I could give you more insite in you decision but that is only for you to decide and if you truly look inside yourself and find the person who you really are your question will be answered. Don't be afraid to be you and to be true to yourself.

christine

This really feels like the thread that wouldn't die. I was kind of nervous when I saw it bumped. I'm glad that I read what I did though.

Since it's back from the dead I want to say this:
Nellie,
When I spoke about consequences, I wasn't talking about guilt or fear. Maybe consequences is the wrong word. Maybe "outcome" is a better word.

Take this thread for example. Posting this question here I went in knowing that there might be some ugly responses. I accepted that likelihood and posted anyway.

Same is true with my behavior. I think it through and say "if X happens am I willing to deal with it?" If I can answer "yes" then I take a shot guilt free.

PB & Dazed,

Isn't there a balance? How about you mother him like he's 20, not like he's 5.

Just a suggestion.

<small>[ December 17, 2002, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>