Well, it didn't go at ALL as planned. Unfortunately things went crazy. WAY crazy.

I'm not sure what to think at this point.

I'm sure I made a LOT of mistakes, but as everything's been going so far, it was not at ALL what I expected.

My wife came to visit last night, to pick up her mail. Got an email from her in the morning, she came over in the evening after work.

My wife stayed for about an hour. Almost ALL of that was talk of R. Why? Well, she came in looking sad and scared. I wasn't sure why. I started off with a smile and a greeting, said it was great to see her and that she looked fantastic.

I asked her for her coat and she said she wasn't going to stay (note -- She kept the coat on the whole time).

She asked for her computer laptop and I took her back into one of the rooms to get it. That's when it all came out.

I asked her what was wrong as she just did not look well. She told me she was SCARED of me. She said that the letter (the Plan A letter, available in EN in my "Letter To WW" post) I delivered last Thursday to her work SCARED HER TO DEATH. She said the threw the rose away immediately. Everyone at her work wanted to know what the letter said, what the rose was. She probably lied to most of them, but she said she showed the letter to a co-worker and she agreed it was frightening. She said she felt like I was stalking her and the letter sounded like it was written by a stalker.

Now, here's the interesting part -- I asked her "Did you tell your co-worker what was going on, the whole situation?" She said yes, and then she said, I even told my MOM everything. I asked her when. She said, when I talked to her on the phone a couple weeks ago. Really, I thought? Then why did she not know anything when I told her last week? So my wife was lying about that. So I can assume she isn't telling her co-workers the whole story either. And was that letter really that bad? I am shocked. She told me that the letter was SCARY and STALKERISH. She said the line "I will do whatever it takes to get you back" was the worst. Well, I just checked the letter, and this is the CLOSEST line to that:

"I understand now what I did wrong, and I want you to know that I can and will do what it takes to earn your love again."

So I guess she interpreted that line as "I am going to stalk you and kill the OM because that is what it takes to get you back". I have no idea if she showed the OM this letter, or even told him about it. I wouldn't be surprised if OM is out to get me now. What a mess. I told her that line simply meant that I was counseling and reading and learning to be a better husband, that being the "what it takes" part.

Now, I did ask her if she still HAD the letter. She said "yes". I told her well, maybe if you go and read it again, knowing what my intentions were, it might seem a bit different. Who knows if she will. I just read that letter again and I don't get it. Maybe she WANTED it to seem that way. I dunno. In some twisted way, is she so fogged that she made it out to be bad because she WANTS to hate me? Of course then, why would her co-worker agree with her? Unless she made me out to be a wife beater or something. She lied to me about what she told her mom, I wonder who else she's lying too.

She said it scared her also because I delivered it like that. She said email would have been more appropriate, or even taping it to her apartment door. She said it made her cry at work in wide open in front of everyone and that was not fair. She was frightened to go outside at work that day for the fear I'd be there waiting. Frightened to go home to her apartment, frightened to sleep. She said she is still scared of me now. She said she never thought she could be scared of me.

So I spent a good part of the night talking to her about everything. I know it was bad. She reciprocated, I listened when she talked. When there was silence for a bit, I broke in and said a few things. I did my best to interpret the letter for her, trying to remember everything it said. Doing my best to point out what the letter stood for. That I understand the part I played in the deterioration of M, the part I messed up, and that I was learning to be a better husband. I wasn't trying to teach HER, just trying to help her understand the letter, that it was not a stalker note, it was intended as a love note.

She told me again that all we did in our M was sit on the couch and watch TV. I agreed. She told me I cooked and cleaned but that wasn't what she needed. I agreed. I told her I wish we'd have talked about this before it got to this point. She agreed, said she just shut me out after a while. We had that discussion a few times after D-Day as well, though. She told me she has "seen so much more of the town" now, and that we always went to the same places, never drove any new roads, anywhere new. OM lives downtown, so he knows TONS of places to go. I'd love the chance to take my WW out, but I think I have a disadvantage over a guy who lives in the city. We're in the burbs here. And honestly I never KNEW she wanted to go out to all these places or I'd have gone. Maybe it's different to go clubbing when you're "single" than when you're married.

I tried very hard not to LB. And I don't think I did that. I think not saying anything would have been worse. We did talk about a couple of light topics through the hour, but mostly it was relationship stuff. Ugh huh?

Afraid of crossing any more boundaries, I asked her if she'd like me to not email her anymore. She told me email was fine, to do that when I wanted. But to NEVER come to her work again unless she asked. I asked her about seeing her again before Christmas or for a movie/dinner next week. She said she has "a lot to process" now and she doesn't know how she feels about anything. But she said "maybe" to that. She mentioned having "a lot to process after tonight" a few times. Maybe our conversation helped a bit.

I can tell you all this, when she left, she wasn't nearly as terrified looking as when she came in. So maybe I did some good. Who knows. Most of the night, especially when we were talking about the letter and our situation in general, she looked down, she refused to look at me at all.

I asked her if she'd see me before Christmas again, and it didn't sound very certain -- So, I gave her a present for Christmas, an ornament, wrapped. She said a gift is inappropriate. Once she opened it and saw what it was, she wasn't upset. So I guess I chose the right thing. Nothing serious. I told her I wanted to stick with tradition, as I gave her one every year. She really seemed to like it. I'm glad I went no further with it than that.

She cried a lot about her money situation, and told me about all the things she didn't have, the expenses, the bills, the rent, the car breaking down, etc. I empathized with her. I did not offer to "fix" it though.

She told me she has "no one" here to depend on and that she can't even depend on me now that she is scared of me. This may be my only LB. I said "You have him (OM)." I don't know why it came out. Maybe it was because she was telling me all night about being alone and not once mentioned OM or that A was ongoing. NOT ONCE. As if I don't even know or if she thinks I assume she's on her own. I know that they are in PA still, very much so. To my statement, she just again said "I have no one to depend on." I told her she can depend on me. That I was her husband, the same one she married years ago.

Tonight she also pretty much brought up EVERY LB that I did before she left -- She remembers them all as clear as day. It was just what I feared. She said many times "You kicked me out". And I did. I forced her out the door and into her own place. I gave her a deadline to get out. She told me all the arguments I made about the things she wanted to take. When she asked for things in the house that she'd paid for, I threatened to get a lawyer for the divorce. I was horrible. I called her every name in the book. I cried, I got angry. I was a jerk. That is why this Plan A stuff is so important to me. I need it to be solid because I LBed her all the way out the door. Now this letter looks like it was another HUGE LB. Drat.

I did all these things because I was trying in some twisted way to "scare" her back I guess. Figuring the harder I made it to leave, the harder it WOULD be for her to leave. I know what a mistake that was. I told her I realized all that now. She understood my intentions but still told me that they were hurtful, and said "Why would I want to stay with someone like that?" It's so true, folks, when you LB your spouse after finding out about the A, it only makes them want to leave all the more. Boy, was I stupid. I couldn't control my anger and it cost me my wife moving out.

That letter I wrote, of course, was trying to say all that. I explained to her that I did ALL the wrong things after things went wrong for us, and I was learning to be better (of course, the letter delivery I guess didn't help -- She says that made things SO much worse. Wow, ouch. Maybe I should have stuck to email!)

I told her the letter was a way to tell her that I realize my faults in our M, and to tell her she had a warm, safe place to come home to. She said "You kicked me out" again to that. She said that a lot tonight. I'm pretty sure I said "I'm sorry" or "I was wrong" to that in response a lot, too.

Another situation -- When I asked her again about seeing her before Christmas, she said maybe, because she needs me to transfer the title of the car over to her. See, another LB as I was trying to take from her before I kicked her out -- At the end of the year I told her she'd need to get her own car insurance. Now, I'm not sure how nice or wise of a gesture this is, but should I offer her to stay on my policy? She can still pay her share of it, but it would be SO much less than she is paying on a new policy (Probably about $400 a year as opposed to $1500 a year, and that's splitting it with me down the middle). Then my name could still be on the car and we wouldn't have to transfer the title this year. Of course, if she gets in an accident, it's on my insurance, but wouldn't that be a good gesture for me to make? Saves her money and hassle, and keeps a common tie between us in a way. One less thread cut.

I think things were a little smoothed over by the time she left. Of course, I have no way of knowing. She did not hug me or touch me. I told her I'd email her if there was anything else I had to ask her. I still can't believe she claims I was the one with NC! She did say she felt a little better, I tried to reassure her I was not going to stalk her or anything and she said she still felt a little scared. Unreal. If OM heard all this, he probably REALLY thinks I'm a monster now, after she inflated the story/letter to be a stalker letter.

I watched her leave and she waved before she got into the car. That was that.

So, wow, a pretty unexpected night for me. Not at all what I wanted. I did my best with the cards I was dealt. I keep looking back to things I have done since D-Day and regretting. I wonder when the day will come that I start to do things right?

Well, ALS, I see nothing unexpected in this at all.

In fact, I nominate her for an Oscar - in the WS script reading category.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe she WANTED it to seem that way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bingo!!

That said, it was instructive for me to hear her description of your letter as "stalkish." In her conscious coma, she likely believes this. I hadn't considered this potential WS interpretation before of Plan A or Plan B letters. Very interesting. We all need to keep this in mind as we review other draft letters from BSs. But, I think the wording of yours would have passed muster even with this thought in mind.

Stay the course, ALS. She's floundering and you MUST love her enough to allow her to crash before rescuing her.

WAT,

Thanks, it's good to hear another take on it and to see that my thoughts might be correct on the matter.

I read the letter a few more times and, while perhaps a line or two COULD somehow be twisted around that way, the rest of the letter is just so sweet and loving, I'm not sure how the entire thing turned into something that frightened her.

I do believe perhaps the idea of hand-delivering it to her place of work along with a rose didn't so much scare her as upset her. She was upset but re-interpreted that as fear towards me. She is in a strange state of mind right now. She found it as sneaky and obtrusive in her new life.

Like I said, she told me to never come to her work again unless she asked me to. Of course she doesn't want me there. After all, she works there with the man she is cheating on her husband with! I would think that's gotta be the most volatile place for her when it comes to this affair. I don't think anyone there will ever know the whole truth of what happened. She would be ashamed to show her face there if they knew the plain truth, that she persued her co-worker and is now seeing him secretly, even though she is a married woman. I think her co-workers would lose respect for her.

So I do wonder what she told her co-workers about that letter. I really do. I don't see how anyone, even a friend of hers, who knew the TRUTH about what happened between us, would take her side. Perhaps that's what friends do. But I guess I can't control that and shouldn't care what they think or what she's told them. I just feel like she's digging her holes deeper and deeper though with each lie she tells, and each person she tells it to. I wonder if we ever were to recover, what she'd tell her friends then.

I'm not sure what her reaction would have been were I to have taped it to her apartment door. Maybe the same. I do know that she didn't appreciate the fact that the delivery got SO much attention from her at work. Of course all her co-workers wanted to know what the letter said, what the rose was for, etc. She threw that rose in the garbage because she was embarrassed I think. I mean if the letter was so evil, why would a rose come with it?

I guess the whole mix of it somehow set off that trigger in her. I think the fact that OM may have seen or was nearby, and the fact that she has been trying to hide her marital problems at work all came to a boil with that letter. Dirty tactics, I guess, not ever what I intended, but they do say that a big part in ending an A is exposing it. I think that letter and her reaction to it was just a big public exposure, and not something she was prepared for.

Still, folks, WAT is right -- Choose your words carefully with your letters, and choose your method of delivery even MORE carefully. Though who knows, the way that letter was delivered may actually end up helping in some twisted way. At least I got to see my wife last night.

ALS

ALS - are you acquainted at all with any of her co-workers?

This is what I bet has occurred:

She has not been truthful to either her co-workers OR to OM. She has likely not only NOT told them the truth via lies of ommission, but has told lies of commission beyond your wildest imagination.

Consider this: She may have told them all that you took off to another country with a stripper you knocked up, never wanting to see her again, and BTW, you cannot come back because you're wanted on federal warrants for child pornography.

The next thing that happens is that you, unbeknownst to her story, show up at work with a rose for her.

See?

WAT

ALS,

Yup. That night went exactly how you didn't expect it. How did you expect it? That is the bigger issue. As I am painfully learning, don't expect anything. Expect to discuss the weather or the local sports team. Small talk. That would be a step up for you right now, wouldn't it?

The other posters are right. She wanted to hear that from your letter. Your letter was fine. You're not nuts, evil, wrong. She saw these things because she wanted to. It is easier for her to feel "scared" of you then to love you right now. Maybe you did scare her but from a different perspective. Sounds like you did a 180 from the time she left your house. That in itself is probably pretty unsettling to her. I know my WW has a hard time putting my actions with my face. This could be the same for you. I don't know.

The present was a good idea. Keeping with tradition in my book is good. When she says she has a lot to process believe her. She is telling you the truth. When my wife came over last Sunday she spilled her guts to me even though I never asked one question. Hadn't for 3 weeks. She felt she needed to tell me some things. Now my wife also said that she had pretty much been alone doing nothing except thinking/processing herself since she has been away. She is trying to figure out her situation. Her own faults, good points, role in marriage and how it got to this point, what she wants out of life. I am assuming that this is what you wife will be doing as well. Let her do it. Don't call or email for a while. See what happens. The holidays are coming up way too fast and this will dwell on both your minds. See what happens in a couple of weeks. I'm sure it will be better than it is today.

Its amazing. I can write down rational thoughts to other peoples situation but get the same anxiety, sadness, anger and frustation with my life. Looking for help just like you. Keep your chin up. You are OK. Your wife will be too. Just give her some time to "process".

ALS,

And NOW you really know what the term "fog" means. Or as Dave (WAT) says "alien abduction". Could also be moose brain worms, right Dave?

Your letter was fine and as others have said she "choose" to interpret it that way.

Have you considered talking to her mother about this, since Mom now knows <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ? It is something to consider as she as said she told Mom everything.

So the message is: ride it out. It is part of the fog, rational feelings wrapped up in irrational thoughts and interpretations.

God Bless,

JL

I would send her one short e-mail to let her think on.

Dear W,
I am sorry I am such a poor writer that I gave you the wrong message. I wanted to say that I love you, that I am sorry for having you leave, and that I would love to start over with you.

I would welcome another chance, hope you will be able to forgive me.

Something short and sweet to summerize what you tried to say to her while she was there, and confirm in her mind the things you want her to get from your conversation.

Make no mention of her mistakes right now, it won't do any good. Stay away from things like "I hope someday you can forgive me" Somday is to long, you want it right away. So, be careful what
you say and how you say it.
That is, if you think it a good idea, remember you are the boss, we just give ideas.
SS

<small>[ December 13, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

ALS, three words my friend..."F-O-G". Ok, my grammer stinks, but you get the idea. Anyway, WAT is right and so are you. She saw what she wanted to. Actually, she may have seen what she didn't want to. She may have made you up as the type to stalk (at least in her mind) and then you give her this wonderful letter and she refuses to see it becuase it reminds her of what she is/has done. She needs a way to justify her actions right now. It sucks, but you're gonna hafta ride it out right now. I agree with previous poster, you have to love her enough to let her crash before you can save her.

ALS:

"Maybe she WANTED it to seem that way. I dunno. In some twisted way, is she so fogged that she made it out to be bad because she WANTS to hate me? "

I like the responses you've gotten above, ALS. Cogitate a moment:
*If she's scared of you and is afraid of you stalking her, why the h3!! did she come over to see you in person? After dark???? Answer: She's NOT afraid of you and doesn't BELIEVE you're stalking her. More likely WAT's scenario is right than that one.
*Consider sending the OM that letter after all. I'm not urging this strongly, though, as I was one of those that didn't think you should do this earlier. But if the lies are flying that fast and furious at work, just what kind of picture HAS she painted of you there?

I still think you're doing a good job NOW of plan Aing her. Keep it up. I'm going to bet that you're going to hear from her semiregularly from now on out. Be loving and supportive of her as an individual. Try to ignore her actions, particularly the hurtful ones. Eventually, this "clubbing" with the punker will wear off, excitement-wise.

ALS, I agree with all the posters but I also know that she will justify and read into whatever you send her to suit her own means. She wants to appear as helpless when she says she can't depend on anyone, hmmmm, how helpless is she? She was not helpless and "afraid" when she started A, was she? She has to throw up "you kicking her out", well I disagree with you as that was a LBer because I had to ask my WS to leave and it had nothing to do with LBing, it had to do with respecting myself as he was and still is not capable of doing that. He wanted to have the easy comforts of home (without paying for any single thing) and have his "love nest" apartment. So I disagree about the kicking out part. I am a firm believer that when they go into an A, no matter how "fog driven" they are, there has to come a time where WE should not have to pay for their actions, I'm not being negative but I think you have beaten yourself up alot for her "fog" decisions. As for her co-workers, if they have half a brain and read that letter as alot of us did, they would not have read anything stalkish into it, that is what SHE is telling YOU!!!! Do you actually think she has really been honest to anyone? She would not want that stigma at work if everyone knew the truth, who would? But if you can make yourself a victim, well that's different, but the truth always comes out one way or another. I'm sorry for your evening not going as you wished it would have. I also, wanted to say one thing that I do not want you to take offense at, I would not have delivered that letter to her at her office, I would have e-mailed it to her and sent it to her apt, but that's just me. Because she is where she is in her "fog thinking" it just fed into her portrayal of her being victimized. Just my thoughts. Take Care. I really think you have done a fantastic job with patience and understanding, I just want you to lighten up on yourself!!!!

Howdy folks. Wow. Thank you, everyone for checking in and giving me your thoughts on this one. I'm going respond to each of these posts in turn, so feel free to read them all or skip down to the personal stuff to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WAT: Nope, I don't know ANY of her co-workers. Sounds to me (if she is telling the truth) that she gave the letter to ONE co-worker of hers to read. Probably a very good friend of hers and OMs. And probably someone she told a lot of lies to about me to justify her A with OM. Just my theory. Cerri, my sage who has been counseling me on all this, suggested that it may have even been the FRIEND that came up with the stalker idea. Just to help my wife justify it. I think what you are saying is why Cerri suggested I do the rose and deliver the letter to her workplace. She thought it would help get the A and the lies out in the open. Or at least raise questions.

Mark: Great to hear from you! I have been reading ALL your threads. Hope you are doing well. I plan to check in with some thoughts on your situation this weekend as well, please keep your threads active or start new ones as you have been.

I actually expected my wife to come in, spend about 10 minutes here with small talk, get her mail and leave. Didn't want any R talk but when it started, the floodgates opened up. I felt like I had to at least explain the letter and what its intentions were. She was very angry and scared when she got here, but definitely a bit better when she left. Not okay still, I could still see she was upset, but better at least.

I agree with you. Our wives can't spend all their new-found alone time thinking about an OM or whatever else. She must be thinking about her decisions and US sometimes too.

As for a 180, I think my wife at least is starting to understand some of my changes. I have learned SO MUCH in the past month. I think some of that is starting to show through. I still think I talked too much, but she didn't have much to say. When she did, I listened, and validated her feelings. I avoided all temptations to argue my side of the case (though I had many things I wanted to argue) and all that so I would not LB.

You are doing well and learning so much! You and I are going through this at at the same time and with similar situations. I hope we can help each other out. Thanks for your thoughts.

JL: No kidding! Actually the first thing I did after she left was call her Mom. She wanted to know if I saw her. I let her Mom know that she lied about things and her Mom did tell me that I was right, my wife did NOT mention A or OM. However, her Mom AGAIN got very scared that I told my W I was speaking with her parents. She asked me again NOT to do this. So I must respect her wishes. I agree though, this would be the PERFECT time to let "slip" to her parents about A. But she just assumes we aren't talking. Who knows, maybe she asked her parents not to talk to me.

Seeking: Per Cerri's advice she got a short email today, again stating my intentions of the letter and that I was sorry for the way she interpreted it. Also asked if she'd like to get together again before the holidays. We'll see how it goes. Cerri has been great so far and her advice is something I'm truly following as best I can. GREAT advice on the note and on the "Someday" though. You are SPOT ON.

Madly: Doing my best to ride it out, and still hopeful for something good to start coming out of all this. If anything, the letter got my WW and I talking again. I am thankful for that. I was happy to see her and I told her that a few times.

By the way, when she was here we discussed a blanket her company sells that we used to have (she took it when she left). I told her I missed it. This morning, the first thing she did when she got into work was looked it up and sent me a short email, offering to have one sent to me (if I pay for it of course) with a discount. I was happy she wrote at least and that it was a sign she was thinking of me. I plan to take her up on that and offer to buy her a nice dinner somewhere in return for her kind gesture.

T-Zero: Well, good point. I wondered that as well. I hope you are right, and that the letter is what BROUGHT her here. However, she needed her mail and it turns out she needed it yesterday because there was something in the pile due at her work TODAY. She originally wanted to stop by at her lunch hour (so her visit would have lasted minutes and been during the daytime) but I wasn't home. So I guess she had no choice.

She did stay around an hour or so, which was nice, though like I said, she didn't take her coat off or get very comfortable. I didn't force her to stay though, so I can at least look at the length of the visit as a positive thing.

I agree, at least hope, that I will hear from her more often now. More than every 3 weeks anyway. I hope OM is LBing. Or that the fun is wearing off just a bit. The newness has to be by now. Soon she will just be in a regular old relationship, not a new, exciting, top secret passionate A.

Still unsure about sending OM letter. KNOW that will be MAJOR "stalker-like" action and LB my wife. But may have to go there anyway. We'll see. If Plan A is proceeding well, that may need to be delayed though.

Neesha: Hey! Nice to hear from you again.

Boy, do I ever agree with you. I wanted to argue ALL that stuff with my WW. But I had to resist. It would have been LB. I agree though, I love her so much I wouldn't have urged her to move out if I didn't think I couldn't take it. And I couldn't stand it anymore. A was growing stronger, she was spending almost every night out with him. We were not getting anywhere. And I kept LBing. It was bad. I don't see how she could ever feel she DESERVED to stay given her actions. If she feels that way now, wow, I don't know...I think she understands though. I did a lot of other LB type stuff before she moved out though, I think that was also hurting her a lot. It's all she seems to remember. That's why I say LBing is VERY bad. Sometimes you just can't help it though. The separation has given me more time to work on me and LB a LOT less, if at all.

I was following Cerri's advice on delivering the letter to her work. While the short term reaction may be bad, I think the long term might be better. We shall see. I do agree though, NO ONE at her work knows the whole truth. If they did, the stigma would be awful. I don't expect most folks even know she is seeimg OM co-worker or that her marriage is in trouble. And the ones that do have almost certainly heard a TON of lies about me to justify her new A.

Thank you, I hope if she comes out of the fog, that she will start to understand why I did/said a lot of things I did, and take responsibilty for her role in the problems with our M and her A, as I have expressed my own regret for my mistakes.

In fact, if there were questions I could ask her right now, I would only want to know if she regretted having the A, and, even more importantly, did she regret not STOPPING the A on D-Day and working on M. I'd love to hear an honest, fog-clear answer on that. But I don't know if I'll ever get to ask that. I will stay hopeful!

You are all wonderful, thanks a million.

ALS

A Lost Soul - I agree with the previous posters, so enough said on that subject.

But let me simply add that you did ask her to leave. So what? I did the same thing with my wife. You are in a marriage. There is NO room for another person in your marriage. SHE left in all respects other than where she thought she could have you too. Will she take almost anything you do or say as some type of an attack on her? Probably. That is part of her altered mental state. But YOU must still do what is right. Asking her to leave was the "first step" in her reality check.

Remember, she has been, and is, deeply in her selfish foglike state. She blocks out reality and only sees what makes her "feel good". She is "entitled" to feel good, right?

Personally, I am thrilled that she has all the problems you listed, like the lack of money for things. That is another reality check. These are the things that help to start lifting the fog. But, it takes time. So you are going to have to continue to be patient and working on changing the only thing you can control...yourself.

I hear a lot "second guessing" in your post. Stop that. You have done quite well. She can't see any of the devastation that you feel and is only focused on what makes her feel good. Until she begins to see that her actions are impacting everything in her life in ways she doesn't like, she will not be able to understand reality, much less understand what you wrote to her.

Yes, be supportive where you can. But do not back down on your stance that the problems is primarily hers and the affair. What she is doing is flat out WRONG. In our (BS's) state of pain, anguish, fear, etc. it is very common to try to win back the spouse by being a doormat. That's okay on inconsequential issues and in areas where we have done something wrong and are working to change or eliminate the offensive thing we are guilty of.

It is not okay when it comes to making her feel better because she chooses to continue in sin. Regardless of the excuses or attempts to make you feel sorry for her, she is trying to put up a smokescreen to blind you from the reality that it is HER choice to be actively sinning and breaking your marriage covenant. That is the primary issue. All of the other things are secondary. Do not let her off easy. She is making choices based on being single. She is an adult. She must take responsibility for her actions, including all of the financial ones. That is a consequence of her actions.

Your fear that your actions may "force her to leave you" are also normal. I had them too. I even wrote a letter about that and later showed it to my wife. My worry was that I would do something wrong and she would go running back to the OM. But you have to understand that she is already there. The consequences of her actions will be with her regardless of what you do. But you simply cannot allow her to live in a fantasy without ALL of the responsibilities that came with the reality of what she is doing.

Who among us wouldn't "like" to live in a fantasy world where everything was just perfect all the time? Her comments about seeing places in town are an example. Her little child is saying, "I want, I want, I want". But we all know as adults that wants and needs are two different things. There are ramifications to everything we do and say. She just can't see that right now because her mind won't let her. It's a defensive mechanism for her. She can keep doing wrong as long as she feels "justified" and can keep the negative consequences from hitting her consciousness.

So, what I am saying is that you are doing just fine. The reactions she is having are the beginnings of reality impinging on her fantasy world. It will be painful and trying for you for some time to come yet, so hang in there and be patient beyond anything you thought you could do. Do not begin to second guess yourself. You are headed in the right direction, and the only direction by the way, that you can. Your marriage is either over or it will recover. But that requires her decision to either try to live in fantasy land or in reality land. She has all the necessary resources for one or the other, she just can't have both. Isn't that life?

God bless you and help you to remain strong. Lean on God for strength and comfort when you need it on the tough days. Study Scripture for the wisdom it can impart to you.

<small>[ December 14, 2002, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

This was a really GOOD event!!!!

She shared scary things with YOU!!!!

She bent YOUR ear with her troubles!!!!

She came to YOU!!!!

Chicks do NOT go personally to see someone who is stalking them!!!! (I know from personal experience)

~~~~~ Here is my female mind speaking to you ~~~~~ have flowers delivered to her residence ~~~ Note saying:

"I appreciate you for sharing your feelings. Love, AS"

Good job!!!

Pepper

<small>[ December 14, 2002, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

I agree with the general consensus that there was nothing wrong with your letter, delivering it to work is a tactical error, but easily made, and she clarified for you re access to her at work, I think you should respect that. Do NOT show up at work with flowers, it is very aggressive to force yourself on someone who has to be at work to eat and take care of themself (and therefore cannot avoid you without a scene), but has made it clear they do not want any interaction with you there. She said email was the way she wanted contact, respect that.

This rule applies pretty much the same to her living domicile (but not quite as strongly), people want to be safe AL, and forcing yourself on them when they have asked you not to, is pure aggression. It may stink that it is your spouse, and you feel you have a "right" to access, but that is not really true, marriage does not alter the inherent right we all have to dictate who we give access to. That is why restraining orders exist, for people who will not respect this, and RO are given to married people all the time, so even the legal system agrees marriage gives one no special rights of access to someone if they do not want your presence/contact.

On the other hand there is this notion of fog, and taking actions to shake one out of the fog, the so-called reality checks folks are often so fond of. That can be a self-serving ratioanalization to feed ones own inappropriate choices (ie be manipulative), but I think it can also be a good idea, even essential. One big area seems to be about revealing truth. It would be inappropriate to involve her co-workers, that is pure manipulation, she would probably be furious (and rightly so, cause it reveals some pretty bad things about someone who does that), and is unlikely to help you at all (in any healthy way, even if it hastened the end of the affair). But telling her mom (and family, close friends in general) about the nature of your marital seperation is a good thing. You have a right to do this (it is your life too), and furious or not, she knows this too. You cannot damage your marriage by telling the truth, if she used this as an excuse to further "leave" you, she would have anyways (just found other excuses)...assuming you did not tell out of spite, vengefullness, etc.

As for some of the other stuff, I am with pepper, I wouldn't in a million years put myself in the presence of a man I was afraid of. She may have been emotional, and "scared" in the sense of being accountable for her behaviour (guilt etc.) but she is not really fearful of physical injury. The stalking thing is difficult. She may have been truthful, or she may have been acting (as others suggested), I don't really know. But it is a legitimate feeling. We think of stalking as man dragging wife from house by hair, or pacing about in parking lot of workplace waiting...but that is just the extreme examples...stalking could be defined as any unwanted attention by one human being upon another. We all have a basic human right to decide who can focus on us, and when we tell them to stop, if they don't, they are stalking us (ie making us uncomfortable, disrupting our lives). It is not unusual to see an exspouse (for example) make it clear they intend to "never" give up, to claim they are always married to you, etc. etc. usually citing religious justification for their obsession. This is stalking as well, but long as they take no action that interferes with their exspouse, or makes them uncomfortable (in other words keeps it completely in their own head), then no harm done (except to themself).

You didn't say that, but you were in the ballpark with the will do whatever comments. IMO that was find, it was a statement of legitimate committment, and offer if you will. She "heard" (assuming she isn't lieing) that as you being inappropriately focused on her, does not want that, and so rejected your effort as aggressive. Your clarification was very important I think, but you did nothing wrong with the letter, it was her job to clarify whether you are obsessing over her, or behaving in a rational manner, and I think you reassured her on that, along with your respecting her work boundaries etc. IMO I think the conversation went well, and was very useful. I agree that thanking her (without mushiness) for trusting you enough to be a little open is a positive action. These are the things you want to build on, not some military campaign of analyzing her to death, obsessing over OM, are what people at work think of you, and plotting ways of combating that...do that and you only reveal yourself as the same person who "kicked" her out the door. She made that clear to you, if you listened. Nor should you expect cause you cleaned up your act and learned things in the last month you are "changed" and she should see that. You have a long ways to go, no one changes inherent behaviour over the short term.

You may be just be scared enough over what you think you are losing, to contemplate and attempt change. Right or wrong, extreme stress is very revealing about people, and when push comes to shove you revealed yourself as very controlling (by your own admission you were trying to scare her), and aggressive. That was not an aberration, it is part of who you are, and that is what she is scared of, that you want what you want, and cannot be trusted to focus on her if it is in conflict with what you want. And isn't that in some of this post? What you want? Contemplateing how to disrupt her attempts to figure out what she wants? She has told you, email contact only, do not disrupt her workplace, time to process (assumning I guess to back off relationship stuff, etc.). All this analyzing about her motivations etc. is disrespectful, and whether you tell her or not, it is difficult to hide ones attitude, it is in your voice, your body language, your actions.

Focus on yourself, demonstrate the changes you say you realize need to be made, and view this not as a marriage (it isn't, she ended it), but as a courtship and pursue in that manner, respecting her boundaries (and setting your own), presenting yourself at your best (but honestly), and hope she is attracted (assuming you still want her, for her, not just cause you are losing her, and hate to lose). Once you get her attention again, then can start working on all the MB stuff that leads to increased stability and happiness.

About the car thing, don't know, it is a nurturing gesture, and not inappropriate, but if she has advocated independence then maybe she needs the reality check too...I don't know, this is a situational thing, and I do not have enough facts...but unless good reason not to, I'd say carry her for awhile yet, but do so in a way that requires acknowledgement from her, and not as a doormat thing. Maybe just ask her if she wants you to do this, telling her you would like for her to feel comfortable in the transportation department while she figures her stuff out (to keep stress down)...and that she can pay you back later or something (if that is appropriate).

ForeverHers: You are right. I did ask her to leave. And I really shouldn't regret doing that. I'm not sure what would have happened if she stayed. I wasn't exactly doing a good Plan A, but she sure wasn't stopping the A at ALL. So that may have been the best choice anyway. It was hard not to LB or argue that point with her when I saw her, but I didn't think it would do any good. But of course I had the right to kick her out. I was tempted to ask her the old "put yourself in my shoes" thing. She should imagine me hanging out until all hours with another woman, kissing her, whatever else, and THEN continuing even when she discovered it! Would she still want me in the house? Of course not. But I just didn't feel that was an argument worth making right now.

I agree with you in that at least now she is not getting all the "good" stuff. Before, she had all the comforts of home AND OM whenever she wanted him. Now she has OM 100% of the time and, while some of that time may be good, there are a lot of problems that go with it as well.

Thank you, you are right -- If a time for recovery comes, I need to carefully set up a plan for that, and not just let her right back in the door with OM still in the picture. And she needs to own up to her actions and sincerely show me she wants to work on M. I don't know if I'll ever get there, but I am to the point now where I feel I can make it without her, and I know letting her back to easy is just setting us up for another fall anyway.

Pepper: Thanks, this was great to hear from you!!! I am glad that you feel that way. At first, she wanted to take her mail and leave, but then she stayed quite a while. So you're right, she can't be physically scared of me. I hope that was never really the case. I was in such disbelief that she even thought that. But I hope you're right and that her sharing her feelings with me is a step in the right direction. I will not be pushing more R talk in future encounters unless she starts first of course.

I think I will hold off on sending anything to her residence, at least for now, I don't want to be a stalker. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lurking: Hi, thanks for writing! You are right, I told her I would of course honor her request and no longer set foot near her work. No problem there. She doesn't want me there, I'm staying away. Easily done.

I feel no real right to be anywhere of hers. She has her own place now and pays her own rent. I have not been invited or back to her place since I helped her move her things in. And I will never just "show up" there. I don't think that's fair, especially if OM is there, it could be a mess anyway.

As for telling, the co-workers issue is a fuzzy one. Since OM is her co-worker there, some folks say tell their boss or whatever. I just can't see what good that will do. I mean I don't know any of her co-workers or bosses, so anyone she HAS told will just hear her side, whether I try and defend myself or not they will TAKE her side.

As for her parents, they know, they asked me what was up so I spilled it all. Unfortunately her parents continue to ask me to PLEASE not tell my W we are talking, I don't know why but I can't talk them into just letting all this out in the open. My W CLAIMS her parents know the whole story from HER, this is just not true.

On stalking: I agree with you there. I honestly and carefully wrote that letter so it would seem loving and caring and friendly. It's funny though how a WS in the fog can twist something any way that they want. In future encounters, I will be more careful. My W seems to indicate she is comfortable with e-mail from me so that is what I will stick with for now. No phone calls or flowers or visits or anything. She knows I would like to work on the M, I don't think I can do anything more to convey that notion than I already have.

Nice point on wanting her because I want her and not just because I hate to lose. I had to think over that when all this happened. I had to decide if I still wanted my W back because I loved her, or if this was just some silly game I wanted to "win". As of today, I know I still love my wife, and I have faith we can rebuild a better M than ever. But that may change. The point may come where it isn't about love anymore. If she's damaged me so much that I just don't feel that love. At that point, regardless of what she'd decide to do, it would be too late for us.

I plan to ask her delicately about the insurance, probably tomorrow via an email. Will let all know how it turns out. Thanks for the advice!

ALS

ALS:

Boy, I hope you've done what Pepper suggested! That's awesome plan A behavior!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, I opted to stop short of the flowers, at least for now...Especially after she told me she threw the rose in the garbage the second she got it at work.

Now, of course, we all KNOW why she did that -- The less people that saw that rose, the better. I mean, how bad of an H could she have that sent a letter and a rose to her at work? Especially OM! Imagine if HE saw that rose! I'm sure she got rid of it before then. Whatever story she's telling him about me no longer wanting her would be out the window.

Which is why I still think about sending OM a copy of the Plan A (or B) letter eventually via email. Not sure how well that would go over with WW though especially given the fact that just giving HER a Plan A letter threw her over the edge.

Anyway, after the flurry of activity last week, with seeing her for an hour on Thursday nite and then exchanging a few emails on Friday, things went dark again. She doesn't have e-mail on the weekends and just doesn't call me...ever.

So, I did drop her a nice email on Friday regarding our conversation Thursday night, as well as an offer to allow her to continue on joint car insurance for a while to save money today. Have yet to hear anything from her.

My theory is that she comes out of the fog a little bit when she spends time with me, we even had some nice non-R talk and joked a bit during her Thursday night visit. Hence the "I have a lot to process" statement. However, once it's back to work the next day, and spending the whole weekend yet again with OM, fog rolls back in.

So I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't hear from her again until after the holidays, I don't know -- I can't push too hard, we already discussed the fact that she was NCing me when I saw her. She didn't see it that way, but come on -- I can't send emails full of questions or "How are you's" a few times a week for 3 weeks, get NO response, and believe her when she says she wasn't ignoring me.

At any rate, just keeping busy, Xmas shopping, making plans with friends, all that stuff. Still hopeful for a miracle but as the days go on, realizing more and more how TOUGH recovery would be. My love bank does drop a bit with each passing day, sadly.

Anyway, there's the latest.

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
<strong>Which is why I still think about sending OM a copy of the Plan A (or B) letter eventually via email. Not sure how well that would go over with WW though especially given the fact that just giving HER a Plan A letter threw her over the edge.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you don't need to send a Plan B letter and it seems it's a long way off, even if you do.

IF you eventually send a Plan B letter, the prevailing view is that you should send OM a copy. Read about this in SAA.

Sending OPs a copy of the Plan A letter usually is not so unanimous.

Forgive me for asking, but please remind us of OM's status. Married?

The motivation for sending OPs a copy of the Plan B letter is to make sure they understand the BS's desires, given the assumption that they've been listening to the WS's "translation" of those desires, in a near last ditch effort to appeal to whatever decency the OP may have remaining. The motivation for sending a copy of the Plan A letter should be the same, but if not done simultaneously with sending it to the WS, you may end up getting two LBs for the price of one.

All of this is with the premise that revealing the affair to the light of day is good and necessary.

I can't say you should send OM a copy of the Plan A letter now. There are pros and cons, which is why I asked of his status. If he's married, you should think of doing one better - squealing to his wife.

WAT

Hey WAT,

Well, I don't feel ready for Plan B myself yet, though my W is giving me only spurts of contact...The last was about a 3 week span with NC, we'll see how long it goes this time. I was hoping we'd be back in regular contact again but it seems as if her spending more time with OM again this weekend has thickened that fog right back up. Any courtesy she may have had to reply to my email has gone out the window.

Worse yet, I sort of need a few answers to some questions before the end of the year regarding the car insurance. So I hate to be pushy but I sort of NEED her to get back to me before 2003. Not sure how to do that though if she's going to start ignoring my email again. Why the heck do they do this?!?!?

At any rate, I agree with you, especially if I'm going to send a Plan B letter to both parties, no need to send him the A right now -- You saw what a LB it was when my WW got that letter, I can't imagine what sending it to OM would do. However, I do believe now that OM has NO idea regarding what kind of person I am, and thinks that I don't want my W back. I am sure she has told him this. So any contact from me saying otherwise will at least come as a surprise to him, of that I am almost certain.

The OM is my age, 29, and SINGLE unfortunately, never married, he is a guy who works at my WW's place of business, in a position similar to hers, and, he lives WITH HIS MOTHER. His mother, by the way, who is single due to his father having an A and leaving her. Nice huh?

So, I still wrestle with the idea of what to do next. No question that OM is not being told the whole story. But also no question that my interference WILL enrage my WW. If she were at least in contact with me, or gave me a sign of wanting to work on things, I may have hope that just being patient and staying out of the way will be a better solution. However, if her and OM are just getting closer, it may be better to just take the hit and let OM know my intentions.

It's a tough call. I think I'm gonna wait it out another week or so before I do anything though. I just wish she'd have the courtesy to stay in contact with me.

ALS

ALS,

Looks like you are doing good and hanging in there. I wouldn't send a letter to OM at this point. He is single and not sure if he would really care anyway. Just continue what you are doing. You mentioned that you really need to talk to your wife regarding the car insurance. So why don't you email her and ask if she has the time to come over and talk about it. Just leave it at that. She knows that you are doing her a favor and that she NEEDS YOU for this. She'll have to come over. When she does just plan on talking about the insurance and Plan A. Maybe by seeing you again some of the fog will lift a bit. Keep chipping away at the stone.

The holidays are just upon us so who knows what is going on in her head. Wait it through and see what happens. Do what you have to do for yourself and if she starts to feel lonely, which I think she will, then maybe just maybe she may try to reach out to you. You had mentioned ealier that she can't depend on anyone else right now. That includes OM. I think that is a very important statement by her. Just sit back have a couple of cocktails for the holidays and see what happens.