My wife and I have been married for nearly 9 years, together for nearly 15. About 5 years into our marriage I brought up the subject of swinging. It both excited me, and I thought it would be a way for my wife to achieve the satisfaction I wasn't giving her. We have tried it a few times with different people. I thought everything was OK, she would get extremely excited when it happened, and said she felt it made us closer together.
For me it hurt emotionally, but I learned to change my hurt into excitement so she could continue to achieve the enjoyment I thought she wanted.
Recently we had relations with friends of ours. We both remarked how nice it was that we had friends we could be completely open and honest with. We always said openness and honesty was the only way to go,and the only way this arrangement would work.
Four days ago she told me she no longer loved me the way she should. She says she loves me like a friend, and has felt this way for a couple of years. She wants to leave, she says it's because I "Gave Her Away" and she doesn't feel like I am happy with her as a wife. She says it has nothing to do with anyone in particular, she doesn't want sex anymore, she says when she has sex she feels like a whore.
She says she has no feelings for me romantically, or emotionally other than friendly emotions. But sometimes when we have deep discussions and we talk about our problems she cries. She says it's because she knows she's hurting me. She hasn't left, we still sleep in the same bed, she still hugs me, holds my hand and tells me she loves me. The only thing that has changed since she told me is she now sleeps in PJ's (She never did before) and says because I now know that sex is out of the question.
I'm confused. Does she still love me? Is this a way for her to get back at me for hurting her so bad? Is there hope for our marriage? I need help, advise, guidance, anything.....
TM1994

Your wife does indeed love you but is probably carrying a long deep hurt and resentment that you were willing to turn the act of making love to her into a cheap porno act.

She's a woman, and like the vast majority of women, sex is a manifestation of her deep emotional connection with you, a connection that suffered great damage when you were willing to share her with another man.

She's been probably suffering in silence for a long time because she truly loves you and did not want to lose you by not giving you what you selfishly wanted.

If you truly love her, tell her you are sorry for putting her thru this emotional hell and that if she is willing, you will do your hardest to demonstrate that she is the most important person in the world to you. Tell her that you will not initiate any sexual advances, that you will leave it to her when she wants to make love to you. This will hopefully take the pressure from her that you she will be forced to have sex with you when she's not emotionally ready for it.

The fact that she is still sleeping with you, hugging you, and holding your hand speaks volumes that she is still in love with you.

In the mean time the Harley book 'His Needs Her Needs' and keep posting.

bump

It's been over 2 weeks now. We spent a week in Florida on a planned family vacation, and we've made it through Christmas. A lot has changed since my last post. We have began marriage counseling, I continue to tell her and show her how much I Love Her, we still sleep together; but she doesn't say I Love You as much anymore, doesn't try to hold my hand or give me a hug unless she see's I'm broken down, and we've had sex.
I don't understand it. She says she doesn't need or want it, but we still do it. Does this make any sense? When we do she will not allow me to make love to her, it has to be sex, no emotion at all.
She has started drinking more too. Not much, but now she will have a couple of glasses of wine, she says that's the only way she can relax around me. This is also when we have sex; don't know if it has any relation or not, but I think it does.
I still catch her showing emotion sometimes, but it's very brief and she supresses it immediately. She also acts very differently around the friends I mentioned in the first post. I've asked her, and she says she's not fooling around, but I'm not sure I believe her. I think she has feelings for him and is afraid or ashamed to admit it, even to herself. I've thought about tapping the phone, etc to see what they talk about, but I'm not sure if that would be a good idea.
Please help, I know I'm an A** and don't deserve much, but I feel like I'm dying and I don't know what to do or where to go.

Bump..

Still Looking for any advice.... Now she says she doesn't want to try, it's been too long, she doesn't think she can love me ever again, I make her tense, nervous and she feels like she can't let her guard down around me..

TM94,

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ask some controversial quetions.

1. In your original post you said that the wife was "extremely excited" when the swinging was initaited. When did her attitude change on this?

2. Have you contacted the wife of this other couple to compare "notes" about her H behavior towards her?

My gut is telling me that your wife might be using this "swinging" thing to justify an E/A, P/A. She is trying to make you feel guilty and accept responsibility because she has stepped over the line emotionally.

I'm not saying that you should tell this man's wife that you think they are having an A, I'm just wondering if there are similarities.....that might give you a better idea of what is going on with your W.

Kily,
Her attitude as far as being excited never changed, not until she said she wanted out. Now she says her excitement was fake, all for me, she never liked it.

I have not talked to the other wife, I guess I don't want to ruin their relationship. But I have thought about it very much.

The night she told me it was over she was supposed to be at a college class. I got a gut feeling and drove by the other couples house, her car was there.

I waited for her to come home, 2 1/2 hrs later I left the house to go see if she was still there, wasn't sure what I was going to do. We met on the road on the way home, I told her I went out to grab a Coke, asked her how class went.

She was very calm, not nervous a bit, said the teacher had kept them long for their final, told me she had to write a 4 page essay, then a friends x-husband stopped her in the parking lot to ask how his x-wife was doing, that's why she was late.

She said she needed to use the bathroom, I should go to the bedroom and wait for her, she was horny. I gave her a minute in the restroom, then opened the door, she was "cleaning up". We went to the bedroom and I did things for her, I mentioned she tasted different, made a joke and asked if she'd been with anyone. She denied it for 10 minutes before I told her I saw her at his house.

She said she lied because she knew I was checking up on her when she saw me on the road. I know that's not the truth or she wouldn't have went to such extremes to make up her story and try to conceal it.

Sometimes I think she's still seeing him, other times I don't. I know she still talks to him a lot even though she knows it bothers me. He is also a friend of mine, and I confide in him very much. He has promised me nothing will ever happen between them again, says when they talk it's just chit chat, nothing imporntant. But I think they act different around each other.

What do I do??

TM94,

I think the answers are spelled out in your posts. It does appear that she is having an A with him. The school thing is something I had definately pulled on my former partner.

As for what to do, you are already on the path to doing it. She is in the FOG. You have to force the A into the light and start practicing what you are reading on this site.

I'll be reading and offer insight when I can....

I agree with Kily in that it sound like your W is having an EA. Whatever is emotionally alienating your W from you, will not go away until there is a safe environment in which she feels safe in expressing all that is happening in her life. For this to happen, you need to NOT love bust her (angry outbursts, selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, dishonesty, annoying habits, and independent behavior) for telling you the truth. Sure it will hurt like crazy but it will be a great step in establishing honesty in your M. And lastly, hold off ALL expectations for quite some time to help releive the pressure for her to satisfy your EN's. Good luck.

I was afraid what everyone is saying was the truth. I have begged her to be honest and open with me, she says she doesn't care. She says she doesn't want to hurt me. I've explained that whatever she tells me, while it may hurt at the time, I can begin to work through it once she comes clean.

I've been avoiding all love busts at all costs. I do not get angry with her, and try to hide my emotions as much as possible. There are times when it becomes too much and I can't hold it in; in those times I break down and cry. She usually holds me and tries to comfort me, all of which I think is for me, not because she wants to. That's why I've stopped showing emotion in front of her.

I continue to tell her I Love Her, continue to send her e-mails every morning as I always have, and I tell her I know we're going to make it through this, and I believe we will make it. I still hug her, and try to kiss her, although not as much as I normally do (I'm the overly mushy one in our relationship). Is all of this wrong?

How should I go about exposing the A? I've asked both of them and they strongly deny it. I tend to believe him, but I think she has an emotional hang up with him she is unwilling to admit.

UPDATE:
Now she says she knows she has issues she needs to work out, but she can't/won't do it at home with me there. She says she will be extremely vulnerable and can't trust me enough to be with me when she begins the process of fixing herself.

I'm confused by this. I know I've hurt her very badly, but all I want to do is be there for her and Love Her when she goes through the hell she's going to embark on.

Hi TM-

I wanted to answer your other post the other day, but as I was responding, my boss decided to let us go home early. I've been following along and praying for you.

Right now, your wife is acting right from the WS script. All of it is FOG talk.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now she says she knows she has issues she needs to work out, but she can't/won't do it at home with me there. She says she will be extremely vulnerable and can't trust me enough to be with me when she begins the process of fixing herself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everything that she is saying here is VERY true, it's what she's NOT saying that is the problem. Shs is in way over her head now, and she is trying to clear the way to progress her situation with the OM. Basically the situation is that she wants you there in the wings because you are her foundation but she wants to be able to have the freedom to pursuit this other guy. This way if it doesn't work out, You will be there for her to fall back on. You are the SURE thing. He is the uncertain.

The truth is - something inside her is broken. She doesn't know how to fix it so she is turning to someone else for the solution.

All I can recommend is for you to try and PLAN A as best you can. Work on understanding what things you did to contribute to the marital issues. You can't change her, only yourself. Read all you can here, and post as often as you need to.

I've been in your wife's shoes so I can't tell you from a BS's point of view how to handle things. I'm sure that the veterans here will offer you some guidance.

I would like to add, if it is not already crystal clear, that you can't work on a marriage by leaving. That is typical WS talk.

The other thing is that Plan A does NOT mean hiding your emotions. It DOES mean controlling your anger so you don't Love Bust. Anger usually comes from fear, hurt, embarrassment or frustration. Saying "I am afraid you will..." is not an LB, nor is "I am angry because..."

That said, Plan A is also about making your time together fun. So, there is a balancing act.

<small>[ January 02, 2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

I am confused? If she never wanted to swing with the other couples, why did she? I can guarantee you, as a woman, no woman does that who doesn't want to. You should have spoke up and told her how you felt about it and then her response would have been your answer to how she felt about it. Call me old fashioned, but isn't swinging a form of infidelity? Sharing your wife with other men in front of you didn't upset you, but now that she has an "emotional" affair it does? Think about it...

Kily,
Thank you so much. It's so good to hear what it's like from "The other side". How do I break her out of this fog? We're going through counseling, and I'm reading His Needs/Her Needs. I spend hours a day on here reading and posting, trying to gain as much knowledge as I can to fight this.

She says she's out of the fog she was in for a long time, she now knows all she wants is to be alone. The issues she mention go back to problems she had in her childhood as well, at least that what she says.

Part of the problem I know (now at least) is that I have always been controlling and manipulative. I never realized it, I always thought I was doing what was best for her. I've now realized that I don't know what's best for her, and I don't have all the answers to lifes problems. But she won't trust me enough to let me show her I won't try to control her or manipulate her anymore.

John,
I've tried to make things as happy as possible. We now joke about out situation, and even go around the house picking out what we want to keep. This is all killing me, but I do it in a light hearted and joking way so I won't appear to be down and depressed. Is this right? Or am I hiding my emotions too much?

Serina,
I know now that you are absolutely correct. I have no idea what I was thinking. I have strayed very far from my maker and it will be a very long road back, but at least now I'm on that road. I wish I could go back and change things, I wish I would have told her how I felt, I wish, I wish, I wish.... I know there is nothing I can do about the past except beg forgiveness and try to move on. Now I'm concentrating on the present, and the future. I know it will be better, it cannot get any worse...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> John,
I've tried to make things as happy as possible. We now joke about out situation, and even go around the house picking out what we want to keep. This is all killing me, but I do it in a light hearted and joking way so I won't appear to be down and depressed. Is this right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I don't think so. It is about doing fun things together, not doing painful things together and pretending they are fun. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Or am I hiding my emotions too much? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMO, yes, but that may be necessary at the moment. Or maybe not. I am not good at answering this kind of question. My wife was willing to work on our marriage as soon as the affair was revealed - actually before, since she confessed out of the blue, so I don't have much experience here, and I am guessing what works in one situation may not in another. Pray about it.