Hi all,

I've been "away" from MB a bit, taking a break. It's been good, actually, to get back into my work with a vengence, get out and do some "fun things" such as hiking, rock climbing, etc., and work on my "acceptance".

It's come to my attention, however, that WW may finally be getting ready to make a move - towards the big "D". Maybe. It looks like she's put down a retainer, although I haven't been served yet. In fact, just this past Monday, I recieved this e-mail from her:

"Hi J.R.,

Just a quick note. First, I will be flying home on December 17 and
returning on the 27th. IC/MC has let me know that you will be in town
around the same time. I was wondering if you have made arrangements for the
cats. If you are having problems finding someone to care for them in our
absence, please let me know. If so, I will recruit one of my undergrads to
help out. ---'s parents live in ---, and he is a very responsible
individual.

Secondly, IC/MC has encouraged me to be honest with you about my feelings.
So, here it goes: I have not forgotten about you. You are in my thoughts
every day. You still have a presence in my life. Yet, I hesitate to
communicate with you because I am trying to respect your wishes.

I hope you and the cats are well.

WW"

Now, she sounds rather conciliatory here, right? Well, I've heard this tone plenty before, with her real motive to "make sure I'm still here"... I came into some evidence that things with OM #2 have restarted, at least in theory, and so her message seems to be one again of "let's make sure he's still there, while I keep my two plates spinning."

Also remember that I'm in Plan B... it's been a very, very solid one for 3.5 months now. Very little contact, and as her message indicates, she's doing her best to respect my requests, posed as "lovingly" as possible.

I did reply to her message... Talked simple logistics about the cats (got it covered myself), and thanked her for her honesty. Don't know whether it was a good idea, but I also said "I also appreciate your respecting my wishes - I'd imagine were the roles reversed, the same could be said too." I.e., my message being that I'd try to respect her wishes, if she were in the BS position, as I'd expect she'd have "standards" she'd apply against me, too. My reply was extremely short, but certainly polite from all I can tell.

Anyhow, it was shortly thereafter that I noticed a very large check come out of the account... very much looks like a retainer. Combined with the "other evidence", could be OM2 is pressuring her, or maybe my response really angered her or something.

I imagine it's possible in her foggy world, she interpreted my reply in a negative light. My personal guess would be that she's downright p!ssed that she's not "getting her way"... I'm not playing her game anymore... and I think she's just recently realized this... that I'm completely serious and in this to the end... and whereas she's sent me very conciliatory stuff over the last 4 months at times, I think she's still prone to all the "normal WS behaviors" such as projection and justification.

It will be very interesting to see what happens... whether I get served any time soon or not. If she's told OM2 about getting a lawyer, that kind of sets some expectations on his part... to be possibly dashed again.

On the other hand, maybe she's finally figured everything out - that OM2 is the "best" choice and will make a fine 2nd H. (Gag.) (This despite her admitting that I'm the "best person she knows" more than once during all this... You figure it out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

How am I doing with these developments? Just fine, thanks! As I said, I've been doing a bang-up job with detachment, and am feeling Plan B work its magic in my life, as by design. I'm ready for anything that may come... In fact, to be perfectly honest, Dv may be for the best.

If WW does end up serving me, I thought I'd send her a final message... At this point, there's no sense in mixing words. It might go something like this...

"Well, WW, I'm very sad to know that you believe this option is somehow the "best" solution, but at least it does seem to be a decision made.

Of course, I always believed there was a different way, as I think I clearly illustrated for well over a year. But I respect your rights to such choices, and realize that this is what you believe is right for you. It would seem that you have figured out what it will take for you to be happy in the long term and are already on that road, achieving some clarity and peace. Being proactive and responsible is indeed important.

I guess I have to say "thank you" for making a decision (eventually)... I realized that I could not start a successful relationship with someone else based on honesty, trust, respect and intimacy, while in this process and so things do start to change, with time. I've certainly made efforts to arrive at a new place in my life where I can be a success, and I feel like I've made some great strides. You may have seen some small evidences yourself.

I will respect your decision. There is no reason to fight or call each other names. Yet at the same time, I do need to point out that the searing pain is still there... and having a "relationship" with you after this is all over would be very, very difficult... As it is, especially if you retain past reminders around me, there will never be any level of comfort for me - or those who "remain" in your life. I'm sorry.

And thank you, for 14 years of life. You were my life, and I drew my strength from you. I felt stronger with you, not weaker. I felt secure and confident, not shakey. I felt proud, not shamed. I felt confidence, not fear. I felt the power of friendship and kindness. These are the reasons I committed to you. These were the things I felt on July 17, 1993. I loved being a husband, although I failed to live up to my own standards at times. There are many things I will look for in others that I believed I saw in you. My standards are very high indeed. It will pay off. I demand "the best". I'm already seeing signs of where I'm going, and it's very positive.

I will be doing some traveling (out of the USA) in the coming year, as time permits. I've got a lot on my plate in and out of work - a few adventures had and to be had. I've taken good care of the cats, I hope - I hear no complaints anyhow. I do prefer to keep them, but that can be discussed.

I think the thing that makes me the saddest is the "what could have beens." Yes, we could say that about lots of things, but there's something unique about "ours," I think. We certainly did share a lot of tears, honest moments and painful growth during the past 16 months and more. My memory list could include:

....

I could go on, but won't... Just taking a moment to warm up by the fire before continuing.

I'm certainly no sage or therapist, WW. I'm in no position to offer advice, nor would I expect you to want any from me. But I guess if I had to think of one thing to leave you with - to walk through the rest of your days here with - from me to you - it might be... "Please trust yourself, trust that the truth will always win." Always play on the winning team, okay?

As I said before, we need to continue without contact, although some will undoubtedly be required to deal with divorce logistics. But I imagine the lawyers can deal with much of that. I will likely drop a letter in the mail for your family, to say good-bye also.

Good-bye, WW, and God Bless. I'll miss you."

<small>[ December 14, 2002, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

Ugh, it sounds all too familiar I hate to say. Sure...you'd THINK she'd be working things through so that she could make a decision one way or another instead of seeking out more relationships...but having you waiting on the side has become the new rut she's stuck in and since she can't manipulate you back in a position of more comfort for her, she's going to play things out the only way she's willing to know. (Really really long run on sentence <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Your plan sounds firm and good. By now your love bank is probably pretty empty, since it's probly been quite some time since she's done anything to fill it. I hope you get some resolution one way or another soon.

Hi H4F,

Yep, all too familiar...

I really do think 2 things have brought us here:

1. She has gotten fat from cake eating, and without it, is pretty much ready to find "new cake"... A risk with Plan B, yes, but at least I'm not letting her take me down with her.

2. Her own personality flaws. For all her "work" on herself, she's still managing to project the negative on me, even after admitting that she's doing this. This is of grave concern to me, and should be to any possible future guy out there who might come across her.

I really do look for some kind of closure here... any kind!! I'm still too stubborn to file myself... As WAT has said before, let 'em do the dirty work. That works for me... How did you feel, going through the legal motions of Dv? Did you have to get your H served?

It is possible, I suppose, that she's starting to hit bottom. The money factor will impact her - a $2,000 retainer cuts the account in half. OM2 has none. She moved closer to her work to spend less on rent, but still comes back here to visit IC/MC - so far pretty much weekly, from what it seems. (I expected her to go less frequently, given distance.) She seems to be living a pretty odd life right now... a little hermitish, I would guess... not too much fun stuff... of course, I can't tell completely, but since my life is "on the line", I still am curious.

And yes, the LB is very empty. I've taken to thinking more negative than positive thoughts about her - a slow, unconscious shift over time.

Of course, there've been plenty of stories of WS's filing and then later having it "affect them". I don't expect that, but I have to suspect that she isn't terribly happy right now... If she were, I'd think she'd tell me pretty quickly what's going to happen and get it over with.

Why, oh why, can't they see the forest through the trees?

What's your gut feel? Is she furious with me for my comments, or just because I'm not giving her what she wants?

<small>[ December 14, 2002, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by J.R.:
Why, oh why, can't they see the forest through the trees?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because they have to learn to "SEE" it in their own way and in their own time frame.

I've asked that myself so many times, J.R.

I guess they learn at a different pace, if ever, or they need to be taught the lessons more than once to finally understand.

I have been wondering about you. Your story has always been of great interest to me. Seems your wife does keep checking to see if you're still there, and when she has OM encounters, it spawns that insecurity to check.

You could be wrong about the $2K withdrawal (attorney retainer), although even if you aren't, I would say your wife may be using it as a measure for contact with you, perhaps to manipulate you out of Plan B.

I still think the needs you meet of hers have not been filled by any other man, to date.

Your proposed letter to her is very well written. Very respectful and thoughtful, yet strong at the same time.

Please keep us updated, J.R. I want to know what transpires. Know you're in my prayers too.

Love,
Jo

<small>[ December 14, 2002, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

J.R.,

Does she know that you check the account? Just curious.

Jo

p.s. I don't think she is angry, per say. I think she is thinking just like you ... "what do I do now?" .... "what is HE thinking/doing?"

Thanks, Jo

I suspect you're right... about no other single man being able to meet all her EN's...

OM#2 is exotic and poor. He's proven himself to be a jealous, demanding control freak. They've had plenty of "blow outs" that we never, ever had as a couple. If she were seeing the big picture, that should serve as a huge warning sign for the future. If she does get to the point of viewing herself as no longer being in a "choice" position, things might seem a lot different for her, I don't know.

I do think she'd love nothing more than to have me exit Plan B... and still get Dv'ed, to keep OM#2 happy, then keep me around as a "friend"... and if OM#2 doesn't "turn out", go back to me and get remarried.

I see things a little differently. I think if Dv does start to progress, I'll throw myself into my "new life" as much as I can, getting ready for the day I can turn on the charm and start dating again. I'm young and attractive enough to get noticed. Sadly, a few more grey hairs than 2 years ago... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Well, I re-read everything and I can't honestly see how she could take that wrong...unless she's still firmly planted in the fog just LOOKING to be pissed off.

Her letter is a sad sign that she isn't really anywhere new, however. Her counselor asks that she be honest with you, yet she hardly states what's on her mind at all. She's still not being anywhere close to honest. Her state of mind right now seems downright scary.

I thought you did something about your finances? I mean, I know you said you weren't paying for her apt any more...and I think you said she actually moved? I wonder if she's just stalling for after the holidays to have you served? Or could there be any other reason she'd withdraw that amount of money? Is this actually HER money to withdraw or savings the two of you had or what?

I don't have a clue, I guess, about what she could be planning...but honest seems far from what she's being with anyone right now.

A few grey hairs? Awww...poor baby <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I'm 31 years old, completely young at heart, and have gone 70+% grey already. It's supposed to be dignified on men...on women...well, we always have hair dye. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

H4F, yes indeedie, we have separate accounts right now, but I do have on-line inquiry access into our "joint" one. I will admit I check on it now and then... again, I'm a curious kinda guy, although far less "concerned" about details... more about "big picture outcomes" right now.

So yup, she moved - I know that for sure. She pays half the rent we used to, but still pays $120 per IC session... She definitely likes IC... IC was willing to find someone new for her, closer to her new place, but WW would have nothing to do with that... She prefers to drive 80 miles each way on Saturdays to visit her.

And the $2,000 definitely seems like a retainer, given it's an exact amount, and she has no other reason to spend such an amount. She's a pretty anal person about money, so spending such an amount must be for something "important"!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> (Although she has spent quite a bit of cash lately - not sure if she forgot that she doesn't make 3 times her salary or not. Also not sure if she forgets her "dream" to own a house, yard, etc. - last I checked that cost a lot of $, meaning having savings, a plan for the future, etc.)

Now, it's all still speculation... She needs to fill out some paperwork, have me served, etc. If she delays on that, it's only bound to make her think more... Right now... I still hope she does actually follow through - to set us on some specific course. I'm ready for it... Bring it on... I'm ready, I doubt she truly is deep down.

When she moved, she sent me a message, admitting openly that she's in "great need" of therapy, mentioning continuing with IC... possibly another effort to let me know she's still hanging on to me - and that I should still hang onto her as such. In fact, she almost said that openly, noting that her moving wasn't intended to be a symbol that she wants a Dv - it's just about money. Interesting... Has she changed her mind now? Has OM#2's presence re-ignited the fog that may have been clearing due to their last, fairly lengthy break-up? Stay tuned, I'll let you know.

I think she's seriously miffed about my response... Maybe because it forces her to think about the roles being revserved... And yeah, does she honestly believe that if she were the betrayed that she'd want contact with me, without my showing some kind of commitment???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Give me a break! Maybe my small comment got her to thinking some more... Just the facts, ma'am.

I think all her lies and muddy mental state are truly taking their toll on her. She's seen a doctor a couple of times recently, but I don't think for anti-depressants, like I'd hoped. (IC would likely mention it to me.)

Rock bottom sure mustn't be a pretty place... Anyone care to describe it for me when you were there?

I wish the weather were better here today, I could get out and do something... as it is, I'm thinking about this too much again.

You sound more and more like you have made up your mind what you want to happen???

Are there still conditions under which you would take her back, and if so, what are they and how would you measure compliance?

If the answer is yes, and you have a way to enshure it, I suggest letting her know that again.

"Dear W,
I find that after all that has happened, I still love you and still want to be married to you. Only thing is, that I'm not willing to share you with anyone else. If these things were to happen I would love to have you back..........."

I know you would have to be really careful how you said things so as not to "give away the farm"

I agree with H4f, she doesn't look like she is sorry and wanting to change or reconcile yet, but sometimes when we are hurting we act like she is acting also. You know her best, what's your take?

SS

SS: I know you would have to be really careful how you said things so as not to "give away the farm"

JR: The problem is, this farm is covered in cow poop!

It's hard to describe where I am... I'm ready and prepared to accept divorce, but not ready to rush ahead and throw everything I've worked for away. Maybe that leads to a level of stubbornness.

My gut feel is she's going to sit on this for a little while, wait to see what I do, and tenatively step on the Dv playing field sometime in January.

When she does so, I'll reply with my above note with a few modifications. It basically keeps Plan B going indefinitely... But doesn't speak about reconciliation. But that's okay. If she wants it bad enough, she can still speak up - others have... if she doesn't, she won't. I only want her back if she's truly changed her fundamental belief systems... otherwise, we're looking at a very long, horrible life together. (As it is, I graciously defer that to her and OM #?)

I'll also probably send along a note to her parents once she drops the Dv bomb... maybe a copy of the same letter I give her, I don't know. Basically at that point, I don't feel I have anything left to lose.

Another thing that holds me back a little is simply being curious about "what next"? It is like watching a slow motion train wreck, and there's more action unfolding... I've insulated myself from the main drama, but that doesn't mean stuff is still happening. I think the deeper these WS get into the fog, the more they "need" their "fix"... And the more profoundly "ordinary" their OP will seem someday, since they've sacrificed so much more than some feel they have.

J.R. ... it's unfortunate that your wife doesn't see how great you are. Of course, I know you only from these boards ... but what you show here is a virtual paragon. You rule.

whippit, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I will not deny to the world that today I'm sad..... And edgy.... I feel like I'm on death row or something.... I've got my last letter ready to go.... Finances in order.....

And she knows I'm a good person - she admits it openly. She just doesn't "feel" for me like she "feels" for him, I guess. I tried my best. That really does make a difference, I find.

I'm just ready to get out of the uncertainty.

I don't want her back in present form. The woman I want beside me is a concept right now... If she moves forward with Dv, I will get the real thing soon enough!

You gotta do what you gotta do. You obviously deserve to have someone in your life who will contribute to your happiness. It's evident that you know this and have for some time. I, too, am baffled by unfaithful spouses who tell their betrayeds that there is no one better, yet run as far as possible from them; yearn for a love as great as the one they've left behind.

And, I agree, that we have nothing to ashamed of in our efforts as long as we've done our best ... an early lesson from my parents.

I state again ... you rule.

<small>[ December 14, 2002, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: whippit ]</small>

LBing here ...

your wife is an idiot!
sorry ... had to get that out of my system!

Carry on.

Pepper

Pep, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It's all going to be fine......

I know the OM's can't hold a candle to me... I know she knows that, too.

I know there's a lot of fish in the sea... I know she knows that, too.

I know she's got SO many problems right now... I know she knows that, too.

I know that until she hits rock botton, addresses her problems like an adult, faces reality and embraces it, and becomes a worthy wife, she will be damaged material for *anyone*... I hope she thinks of that at least time to time.

I know that she misses me and our 2 cats... I know she knows I know.

I know that she hates the idea of hurting me, and in that way, she seems like some WS's who have eventually snapped out of it... That's about the only factor that allows me to cling by my fingernails... But a good gust of wind, and I'm gone!

My "protective husband instincts" have been aroused, and I have a temptation to call her tonight... But I won't. I need to hold firm. She may even be thinking of filing to see if I'll buckle when faced with "losing her"... If that's the case (I hope subconsciously at most)... she's really lost it!

No I won't back down... Plan B has been good for me. It's taken about 3.5 months, but I think it might be finally applying some pressure to make a move.

Thanks all for the encouragement... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I was thinking about this recently...

I know Dr.H in SAA talks about dropping any "requirements" that the WS show remorse after the A ends - that if the 4 rules of time, care, honesty and protection are applied, the feelings will follow naturally.

And I've held onto this for a while, but am now maybe believing that I'm in a position where I *can* expect / demand *more* from my WW, if she ever comes to her senses...

What might I expect?

1. Admission that all her A's were "mistakes"
2. Admission that all her A's were cruel indulgences that hurt all involved, gaining nothing but pain
3. Willingness to adopt NC (I realize some get away without this - I strongly believe she can't)
4. Admission that her behavior was erratic - an addiction-based behavior
5. Admission that OM 2 in particular is not a paragon of virtue, but jealous and controling. And that their "cultural differences" were only the tip of the iceberg - that the personality traits he has would never result in a lasting union.

I realize these things could keep her away permanently, but I wonder out-loud if that's such a bad thing..........

J.R, my freind ... this my point of view about ammends after A. All A are the same yet unique, all has the same theme but it is unique due to our own evironment/situation. Therefore the remedy is unique too and require professional accessment. MB is very safe steps compares to other method and so does its advice on ammends, very conservative. It requires BS to drop its guards and take WS as long as WS is willing to work on M and it is not a requirement. Now in your situation, your in-love is completely drained and bunkrupt ... very close to forclosure (mine is forclosed, if you follow my posts). A slight resentment due to your preception of WS will bring LB in a huge way and the worst of it ... you won't care no more. I do believe you should list your ammends and let her fill it ... and let her know that this is not for her (punishment) but for you to be able to recover your in-love for her, for both of you to rebuild this scattered marriage. This is past the point of "nice" reconciliation for WS. -rh-

J.R.

I just wanted to comment on your last letter to WW, all set to go....

Personally, I don't think I'd send her that letter. If your Plan B letter was strong and clear in its content, then she knows all she needs to know.

From my experience, let me explain. I didn't write my ex-H a letter like this, I spoke these words to him personally, while I cried, and he held me. That was last April, he'd been gone for 11 months, and 2 months later, Dv was finalized. Did it change anything? Not yet! Maybe never will.

But looking at it from his viewpoint, it seemed like manipulation on my part (it wasn't! I didn't intend to cry, or say half of what came out - one point for writing a letter as a better choice, I suppose). It might have made him feel a little "guilty," and that wasn't my intent, either. I was just trying to say "Good-bye" in my own way. BUT now when I consider what I did say, some of it very similar to what you said, I can see how it may have sounded manipulative to him.

I think if you do write a sort of "Good-bye" letter (this might be a good idea, to CEMENT to her the idea that you really ARE ready to move on), it should only include some of the same elements as the Plan B letter reiterated, and not get so melancholy, recalling the past, etc.

As far as whether or not she got angry over what was said, and that pushed her all the way out the door, DON'T get sucked into thinking like that. It doesn't really matter what her reasons are. It's bunk, and that's all there is to it! As WAT is fond of saying, it's all just "Moose Brain Worms," and absolutely nothing else makes any of this make any sense!

Anyway, MHO is simply that the letter you want to write is too full of "remember when" types of sentiments, and "Let me guide you through life one more time" comments, and I'm not sure sending it is wise at this point in time (sends her a message that you ARE still stringing along). Please re-think this.

Just my 02¢

God Bless,

LL,

Huh, good points, fair enough... I've given her SO many Plan A type of letters for so long now. I guess it's just my style to believe I can say just the right thing, when sometimes less is more. I don't know, though. She could just as easily view a short letter as being cold and heartless - like I don't give a damn that she's filed (assuming she will at all). I don't think there's any way to "win" in these situations - a lesson for me. Maybe I'll shorten it and still try to keep some fond aspects but re-read for anything manipulative. Thanks!