Chaz...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how about because their spouse is so selfish and selfcentered that the screaming that the WS did about how things were going were simply silenced because it was The WS's problem and they should figure out how to live with it after all things were just fine or only moderatly uncomfortable for them!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can NEVER change the actions of another... you can NEVER give up enough of yourself and still keep HOPE that they will change. BOTH my H and I were doing that... BOTH... but as I had to OWN my stuff... so to does HE... he still does this same thing... justify what HE did by pointing fingers @ what I did or did NOT do... I CATEGORICALLY WILL NOT TAKE ANY RESPONSIBILITY OR BLAME FOR HIS AFFAIR... I will not be HIS fall guy...

I will take responsibility for MY part in the state of our marriage and MY ACTIONS... but HE CHOSE the affair... he could have chosen a healthier way to go...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">for the record if your spouse has bought 24 how to fix your marriage books and is repeatedly asking you to go the marriage counseling the appropriate response isnt "thats the way it is deal with it" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Two wrongs NEVER make a right... maybe a left... but never a right! Get MAD... but OWN it... there is NOT enought JUSTIFICATION in the world to justify BETRAYAL... aside from that... it is a defense mechanism... easier to be mad @ the wife and blame her then acknowledge that the deepest betrayal is to YOURSELF...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess if you look at A's as a completely seperate component from the Marriage you can easily dismiss any of your own actions as contributing to the dispare the WS feels but then again that would make one feel better about whats happened wouldnt it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's interesting... let's look @ that further... easily dismiss any of your actions as contributing to the dispare the WS feels I can acknowledge that my ACTIONS caused my H despair, does that make me RESPONSIBLE for HIS reaction? Shouldn't HE OWN up to his ACTIONS as well? He chose to get involved w/ another because he was in despair... that sounds a little like the three year old who said "But my brother MADE me do it 'cause HE hit ME."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">of course my standard disclaimer: if you are married to a jerk or a slut who just cant keep it in their pants then none of this really apply's now does it. just remember who picked em.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ALL sexual affairs occur because of the person's inability NOT to sexualize relationships w/ persons of opposite sex. My H learned @ an early age to be charming... to be sexy... to flirt w/ women and he would be 'liked.' He liked those feelings of admiration. He liked sex. He didn't ever want to get married because he couldn't see that he could EVER be faithful... so he never really WANTED to commit to one person... (why did he marry me, then? 'cause I made him... doncha know... little 5'2" me, hog tied him and drug him to the alter... all 6'4" of him.)

Chaz... your posts freak me out... they remind me so MUCH of my H... his inability to OWN his stuff... (except for the sex part... it was MY issue, not his... HE never seemed to want it...) so I wonder, what is your crucible in this marriage... why do you think you keep getting stuck here... @ this issue? 'cause when you figure out how this is about YOU and not HER... then I think you will have a handle on this trigger thing....

Cali

<small>[ December 18, 2002, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Cali ]</small>

Cali,

Chaz and your H freak me out too, they both sound so much like my ex-H.

My H has never owned his part, and never will. He talks of the betrayal and the OCs as tho he's third party to the whole thing. An example of a statement he made to me early post-divorce:

"Wow Resilient, I don't know how you could go on the way you have with all the cheating and the 2 illegitimate children and all. Almost unbelievable ..... just wow"

He said it like he was outside of the situation and that I was messed up because I put up with it. Do you know how frustrating that is????????

Jo

<small>[ December 18, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Cali, I just started a thread to Chaz for his critical and judgemental views to me in the original post for cheating. I was astonished at being judged so harshly when he has obviously not read all my threads. Makes me think twice before giving an opinion. I just thought he sounded angry and accusing... Oh, that's right, he IS. My faux paux. I'm glad you posted to him too, I thought I was just being thin skinned. You can read my post to him on thread named CHAZ

Posted by chaz:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">its not so much why they cheat, its why the marriage is in such a state that it doesnt seem to matter to the cheater.

isnt that really the point?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Um, No. My H cheated because of HIS weaknesses. He did NOT communicate to me (he didn't know how...his OWN problem) how unhappy he was. And it wasn't ME that was making him unhappy, though I will accept responsibility for contributing to problems we had. It was his own issues he brought into the marriage that caused him to not communicate to me the things he was unhappy about in his life, and it was his poor choice to not face his issues and escape by cheating.

He will readily admit that because unlike you, he has accepted responsibilty for HIS actions.

Will you always use your marriage problems as an excuse to be irresponsible?

Grrrr <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

To Chaz and to Cali's Hubby or Cali for that matter ....

I should say one other thing to qualify this .....

I really shouldn't say that Chaz or your H are JUST LIKE my ex-H. Just some of the similarities where he always blamed me for his affairs. Or, moreover, he never owned the consequences for and from having them. And because of that, he never felt remorse, or at least I never saw any.

It was my fault he fathered children during our marriage and it was my fault he cheated and shared STDs with me.

I simply cannot own that stuff, only because it's absurd to try to.

Jo

<small>[ December 18, 2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

ah gee Cali,

still kinda seething inside right now and cant make a decent responce.

suffice it to say that in the same way a BS cannot accept that a WS wont own the responsibility for an Affair (which i definatly do i mean really there was no one else there with me but me) I cannot accept that a BS wont own their part in the marriage or at least the dysfunction in it.

Marriage Builders, is it about looking at what that miserable SOB did to you? no its about looking at what has and can exist in a marriage desciding what you want in that marriage and busting your butt to ensure that your doing what is neccessary of yourself.

if it is possible for one person to lead a marriage to health, isnt it reasonble to assume that one could lead it out of that as well? we clearly accept that when a WS has an A they are leading the Marriage out of the healthy zone, why is it soooo impossible for people to consider that it maybe just maybe was lead out of that category long long ago...and possibly not by the WS!!!

I am very very clear about what my personal issues around self esteem, wanting to be liked and my willingness to give myself away without reguard for my personal emotional health are and how they contributed to my decision to have an Affair.

and Cali it to is clear that you have found within yourself the ability to see your role in the Marriage and how together you created a mess. and i applaud you for it, always have.

its not about accepting any responsibility for the Affair, that always lies with the WS... but this site is about building marriage, not absolution of the BS.

OMG... I don't want this to become a BEAT UP on CHAZ post... PLEASE!!!

I just want Chaz to really look @ what he's saying... and understand that 'hiding' from HIS ACTIONS is part of what is holding HIM back from healing...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that had i had an ounce of personal strength (well i probably wouldnt have allowed things to get so bad in the marriage) I would have gotten a divorce. but the truth is i didnt have the strength to speak loudly enough to order a darn hamburger at MC D's let alone a voice that would have led me to a lawyer.

but then people who have never given themselves away completly dont ever get that.

its not so much why they cheat, its why the marriage is in such a state that it doesnt seem to matter to the cheater.

isnt that really the point?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That I can swallow... 'cause if we make it about the AFFAIR we will NEVER heal... if we stay STUCK in the WHY, we will stay ANGRY and STUCK...

NEITHER the BS, nor the WS can FOCUS on WHAT their spouse did or didn't do... or WHY their spouse did or didn't do something...

To keep moving forward and healing you have to look @ yourself... take responsibility for yourself... and figure out WHY you do the things YOU do...

Chaz... I'll bet that there's a reason you let your wife take charge and you gave up you... I'm starting to learn why my H did... and it DIDN't start w/ me... where did it start for you?

Cali

CHAZ...

... I guess it was TRIGGERS all around!

What you said SO MUCH TRIGGERED me...

my H will still want to point fingers @ me... still doesn't see that his NOT speaking and giving up himself was his doing NOT mine... blames ME for that... doesn't see that it was a pattern that was ALREADY established... part of OUR attraction to each other... and just like your wife doesn't seem to want to 'fix' herself... my H seems to want to leave it alone too... no counseling for us... (I go to IC and a group @ church.)...

The lesson in this is that when we look too closely @ what the OTHER person IS or is NOT doing, we begin to justify our own wrong actions... but wrong... is wrong... for the BS or the WS.

Cali

Just wanted to add to that I was not intending to beat up on Chaz...

Just that he simplified it so much and the fact is our relationship was NOT a mess...and it therefore couldn't have been the state of our relationship that led to the affair (at least couldn't have been the primary reason).

Just was way oversimplified for me...

<small>[ December 18, 2002, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Agnes ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cali:
<strong>OMG... I don't want this to become a BEAT UP on CHAZ post... PLEASE!!!</strong>

too late come on everyone pile on!!!

Chaz... I'll bet that there's a reason you let your wife take charge and you gave up you... I'm starting to learn why my H did... and it DIDN't start w/ me... where did it start for you?

Cali

I cant pinpoint the starting place cali,

but its clear that my core belief was that you wont like me for who i am, i have to be who you want at all costs. and i learned that at a very very young age.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chazbutler in response to Cali:
but its clear that my core belief was that you wont like me for who i am, i have to be who you want at all costs. and i learned that at a very very young age.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's so not true Chaz,

I have read your posts for some time now, Chaz. Just because I don't like what you have said in this latest post, does not mean I don't like you.

The initial post and it's subject matter that went out "Why Do People Cheat", got several people emotionally charged, regardless if you posted on it or not. It was an emotionally charged subject. It even got you going.

I'll tell you something, Chaz. I loved my husband for so many things that he was/is, I still do. So if you are anything like him, then of course I must like you, too. It's the SIN I don't like .... and we all SIN.

Like (and I mean that),
Jo

God Bless ......

Ok, I'm going to tread very carefully here, but I think (possibly) I see what chaz is trying to say here... and while I find what he said to be a little extreme, I kind of agree with the concept, somewhat.

It is soo easy for the BS (and I'm prefacing with not all of the BS's out there do this) to adapt the attitude of "it's all about me... about the pain you caused me, about the betrayl you did to me, how much I hurt... etc." Even through plan A, you can see that many WS have to suck in their feelings and walk on eggshells around the BS. Now before people start getting their dander up, I can see how to SOME extent this is valid. The BS is hurt, it WAS/IS caused directly by actions of the WS, but USUALLY (not always) there were situations that led the WS to make their PERSONAL choice to stray from the confines of their marriage. And I can see how there would be a lot of WS's who would e upset that the focus isn't equally distributed. Is it fair? Probably not. But, we are selfish by nature (everybody, bs and ws), and our natural inclination is to focus on our own wounds. So just as the bs focuses to a larger extent on their wounds, so does a ws.

If this is what's happening in chaz's relationship, a combination of human nature and "fog" would certainly make him feel like he does. I think I'm safely out of the "fog" but I can still see the things that my husband did in our marriage to make me feel like there wasn't a marriage worth saving. Does that make MY affair his fault? Nope, not one bit. But did he contribute to creating the state that it was in when I chose it? You bet; big time. And if a BS (whether it be him, myself or anyone else) adapts the attitude of "what I did doesn't matter because what you did is so much worse," well then I can certainly see why that would create chaz's point of view (to an extent).

Now before you get all postal, I know there are some of you who believe that your marriage (and it may possibly be true) was picture perfect before your H or W strayed. There is such a thing as a serial cheater.

<small>[ December 18, 2002, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: TheStorm ]</small>

Storm I agree with most of what you have posted, my problem that I had with Chaz is that he judged what I was posting without knowing the facts surrounding it, as I did not know he was WS so I was posting generalities as many of you know I do. But when he got critical about my situation, it became nonproductive bantering. That is not what the original thread was intended to do. So I posted on my own thread to him. It is not like I do not see both sides of the issues, even as a BS, believe it or not I can be objective and have taken responsibilty where it was due in my own situation. But Chaz's reasoning was wayyyy off base in some of his thoughts especially directed to me. The points are valid that you made and I do not think anyone would disagree, the only thing that gets touchy is that the CHOICE was made to have A, it just did not happen. I think everything we discuss around the issue we are all basically on the same plane. Agreed?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chazbutler in response to Cali:
but its clear that my core belief was that you wont like me for who i am, i have to be who you want at all costs. and i learned that at a very very young age.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's so not true Chaz,

I have read your posts for some time now, Chaz. Just because I don't like what you have said in this latest post, does not mean I don't like you.

The initial post and it's subject matter that went out "Why Do People Cheat", got several people emotionally charged, regardless if you posted on it or not. It was an emotionally charged subject. It even got you going.

I'll tell you something, Chaz. I loved my husband for so many things that he was/is, I still do. So if you are anything like him, then of course I must like you, too. It's the SIN I don't like .... and we all SIN.

Like (and I mean that),
Jo

God Bless ......</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">nnoooo Resilient, cali asked what it is that started the process of giving myself away.

and it was that belief that no one would like, love, employ whatever me if i didnt appear to them as i thought they wanted me to.

thats the dysfunctional thought that ruled my world. and made it a quest to give up every part of myself until there was nothing left.

that is not who i am today obviously or i wouldnt be having contentous arguements with anyone!

3 years ago i wouldnd have been able to do it not even close.

dont think for a min that i think that today.

Neesha... agreed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chazbutler:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cali:
<strong>OMG... I don't want this to become a BEAT UP on CHAZ post... PLEASE!!!</strong>

too late come on everyone pile on!!!

Chaz... I'll bet that there's a reason you let your wife take charge and you gave up you... I'm starting to learn why my H did... and it DIDN't start w/ me... where did it start for you?

Cali

I cant pinpoint the starting place cali,

but its clear that my core belief was that you wont like me for who i am, i have to be who you want at all costs. and i learned that at a very very young age.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG... you are SO much like my H it is scarey... he gave up so much of himself... and I didn't know... didn't ask for it... MUCH of the time he wasn't even doing ANYTHING I really WANTED him to do... he just THOUGHT that it was what I wanted....

...so much wasted time...

I think we are both getting THERE (where ever THAT is) Chaz... but the TRIGGERS are still there... this helps me understand why my H still says and does certain things... just like he EXPECTS me to be OVER IT... I sometimes expect the SAME...

I hope that this has been of some benefit to you as well.

Cali

Chaz,

I felt the same way before, during, and until my recovery. I see a lot of the points that you are making and I agree with much of it. One comment that stands out in my mind though is that YOUR (Ws's not you specifically) personality deficit of not knowing how to talk about it was the contributing factor or weakness that started the downfall of the "R".

This rings so true to me. You all have given me much to chew on and think about.

One point I'd like to make is that in changing this perception of yourself, YOU have changed the factors that led to the A in the first place.

Just food for thought.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>Chaz,
One point I'd like to make is that in changing this perception of yourself, YOU have changed the factors that led to the A in the first place.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that i fully accept 100% of the responsibility for the decision to have an A it is easy to answer the question.

I am different today then i was then, so while my marriage may or may not be better, I am.

and that my friend means that the FACTORS that led to the Affair lie only within me.

the factors that will mean i have a wonderful marriage my wife and I share. I intend to be certain that my end of the bargain is 110% and that i am as loving and resoursful a husband as anyone could be.

all that without forsaking my manhood, masculinity, or MYSELF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chazbutler:
<strong>all that without forsaking my manhood, masculinity, or MYSELF.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen, Chaz... Amen.

Forsaking ALL others does NOT include ourselves... our individuality... our hearts and feelings...

Hugs and Happy Holidays!

Cali

ps. read Zoey's ***Breakthrough*** post... it is TERRIFIC!

<small>[ December 19, 2002, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Cali ]</small>

^^^computer hiccup***

double post...

<small>[ December 19, 2002, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Cali ]</small>