There is hope, things are better... but life is still not what I want right now.. guess I need to plan a me.

I am in a job where the main thing I like is the paycheck, there is not a real future in my role... etc.

I am tired, and worn out as a single mom.

There is some hope in the counseling. .. my h says I have to go first and show Him I have changed.???? GEE? He still claims he left me due to my horrid treatment of him. I know this is his excuse for the A. We had some hard times before the A... don't most couples?

What still blows me away is how we used to be SOOO HAPPY, and he has completely forgotten,,... well not really, or why would he bother with counesling?

But the times I need him and call, and just get the machine, and he won't call back for a day or so sometimes, just hurt. I am hurt, that he is not making more of an effort.

I don't know why I get to be told how awful I am, 100 times over, b/c he cheated and doesn't want to accept that me being so bad is why he did it. He knows he is wrong, but isn't facing what he did to me... he really wants to think I am bad.

I am still hurting, but have to act like I am sooo ok to him, or he is turned off by my sadness over all of this.

Not happy at work is really getting me down and the extra pounds I can't get off... I think I need to go for a walk or something! The exercise does help a lot! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am so tired, broke and barely have money for the HOlidays...

Thank goodness he is actually trying, but he is not working on his drinking, and I fear will not.

Hugs and thanks for being here.... today I had to hear from another relative some mean things he has sd to his grandmother about me.. to justify what he does.

Thanks,

H

(((Honey)))
That was the most painful part for me. To be blamed for the EA's. How could I possibly be the one that pushed him there if I was meeting all of his EN's. We are newlyweds for goodness sake and I am completely head over heels in love with him. Didn't even get time to settle into a rut. And then I get blamed for the continued contact of the OW from his past. That HURT SO MUCH!!!

Your WH's FOG is thick. Mine was too. All I can say is consider Plan B options and start working them out in your head so that you will be ready. For some WH's, that is what gets them out of the FOG. I had to face that and as difficult as it was, I was ready with all my mind and heart. Suddenly, he saw the light.

Good luck and hold your head high. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Aw, Honey,

Sometimes that Yoda phrase from Return of the Jedi comes to my mind: "Do or do not do, there is no try."

Jim is "trying". He is not doing.

To tell you to "go first" in changing. You have. You are doing.

I think he's "trying" just hard enough to give you hope, and enough so he can stay on his fence and you don't push him off to the other side to fend for himself.

There's a reason you are tired and it is because of the strain, the stress, the effort and the sadness. It is reasonable for you to be tired.

You can only do your part, you can't do his.

And, if he doesn't do more than ineffectually try, you may need to decide what is best for you under these circumstances. Not who he was, but who is now--the person he is choosing to be.

In the meantime, stick with the counseling. Even if Jim would want to skip an appt., YOU go.

There is no justification for what he is doing.

Thanks OnlyUcan and Lor,

Yes, I agree... Lor, and onlyucan, that I do have to possibly move to a plan b... more seperate,... I have decided no more nights over at his place and or/ the things that go with that.

I am so into the Yoda comment... I actually used it on Jim the night he came over to do oranaments... don't know if you sd it Lor, or someone else..> but I sd... DO, not try... Do.

I did tell him not to come over unless he could be loving and kind to me.... as I am not taking rude behavior from him... etc. .. not that polite type of behavior which loudly says I am being nice, but I am mad at you, etc.

It is difficult to deal with his attitude...

I do want to push off the fence if I can...

He actually also sd he wants the kids to know it is not all his fault we are seperated, and doesn't want the kids to thinki he is being mean to me.. - well come on, they can see.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyway, I told him I am encouraging the kids to be loving and kind to him, as I want all of us to be to each other... etc.

He is trying in his slow little way... I know he likes his freedom, and I can't give him too much of me in this attempt at recovery through seeing each other some and counseling.. he does need to miss me and miss out.

lately there have been some tantrums about not letting youngest child spend extra nights with him than every other wkend.. .f.e. the night he came to do tree.. he wanted yson who is 4 to come home with him... I sd No... he got a little mad, but I sd don't push it, just do the tree and go home.. which is something counselor suggested to both of us, to not push things for more, more where either of us are concerned.

I see the try, but I want the DO.

I am tired and need more from my life than I am getting....

Anyway, I am just making more boundaries that require him to be more to have me in his life... I see slow movement forward, HOW SLOW CAN IT BE?

Thanks for posting back to me and being here.

Def. sticking with counseling, he and I are both going to have seperate sesssions soon with respective male and female counselors, then all of us meet together - this will happen in happy January 2003.

Thanks again,

<small>[ December 19, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

Hi Honey,

I don't know if anyone else has said this to you yet, but there is a definite change and tone in your posts since you and Jim have been in counseling. Almost a calmness about you.

I think you're very strong for continuing and trying as hard as you have.

You are to be admired. In the face of so much adversity, sometimes even coming from MB too, you keep coming back and trying again and again. You remind me of Cali in this respect, because she wasn't about to give up either. Two very determined women with alot of heart.

Like Lor said, you can only do your part. I'm proud of you for sticking with the counseling. I think it's helping you become stronger.

Continued strength,
Jo

Thanks Jo,

You are very kind. TOnight my eyes just feel like crying.

I have to let my anger at the ow's go and see if I let this part of our nitpickiness go, perhaps we can get along better like we used to.

I was so in love with this man, he was my prince charming. I know he is in there. But sometimes I wonder why I am hitting my head against the wall, perhaps my prince has had too many beers?... Alcoholics are sensitive people, perhaps that is why i hang on and still want him.. he was sooo caring and loving to me at one time... he just couldn't be enough and I was a typical alcoholics wife and demanded he shape up.... etc. Also those musicians really pull at your heart strings don't they?

Thanks for the support.

Hugs to you and everyone here... we all need them. Thanks for posting to me in your day or time of need as well.

Thanks for noticing I sound stronger.. I feel it too. It is hard though not to give into those crazy emotions I was going with... I have to be strong now.

It is encouraging that he is in counseling, and part of it is, me saying... I am going to give up if you don't try this time..... Now maybe that was a little push? He sd he would try.

H

<small>[ December 19, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

Hi Honey -

I can not pretend to know what you are going through. I'm one of the lucky ones who has a good marriage that gets better with each day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !

But I did want to second Jo's comment on your strength. The MB plan is working for you. Your Love Bank is emptying and you are thinking about Plan B.

Honey, please understand what I am going to say next is only my opinion. Nothing more...

I think your H will need you to go to Plan B for him to be serious about changing himself. We all know it is time for him to stop blaming others for his poor choices. It is time for him to be a man and earn the shining armor that you remember him wearing.

The key to that is Plan B will only work when YOU are ready. And that means when you are ready to move on emotionally without Jim.

You will know when it is time......

Gib

Thanks Gibby- his mom and others have sd... he will change when I stop caring.. it is sad. We are still in counseling, and I have seen the most change in him when I withdraw from him and give up on him....

F>E> I sd I am giving up, and will try counseling... if you will, otherwise let's give up...

HE TRIES COUNSELING RELUCTANTLY< only b/c I will go ahead and sign the d if he will not.

He sd in counseling already he is afraid I will give up and that he is taking me for granted that I want to try so hard on this marriage.

I am sooo tired... when we make a little progress in counseling, I THINK... OH YEA... we can work on our relationship, etc... but truth is.. he wants his cake and to eat it too... why not have a wife in the wings and cheat if he likes... see the kids on the wkend, party, drink, drug and not even pay for kids support.. why worry, the wife dos it all?

I know, I know, it is insane.

Thanks to everyone of you.

Who he used to be was wonderful.. who he is now, is totally confusing and alien to me.

Only the 18 yrs prior to the last make me still care.. the last yr has been a nightmare, and still is in many respects.

If I just met him I would say this man is insane and not at all even worth a date.... that is if he treated me the way he does now... but the way he used to be and can be... that is why I wait to see if my boys can grow up with their dad and me with my first and only love so far in this life.. who is right now... breaking my heart completely in two..

My heart is hanging on the edge now. I see him not caring anymore.. but when I start to give up is when he steps in and says.. oh hey wait a minute... then I start to care and he pulls back out with some meanie comments etc.

He has gone to his own head and he isn't even doing anything to be proud of, but he thinks he is something else right now... something great????

I don't get it.

THa ks for being here.. my head begins to feel confused when I thinik too much about it, and I thought about it tonight while cleaning... and it was therapeutic to scrub... I imagined my anger at the ow with the dirty bathrooms... sad... but that is helpful to get the anger out on her. I am still angry at her, and him... but more forgiving of him.

It runs my head in circles, and I remember when I used to be so focused , driven , successful and loved by him.

Maybe his love was never what I needed.,.. it is hard to get it at this point.

He has sexist pts to him that confuse me, and a sweet side... and maybe a user side? I don't get it.

I know I loved him, I know he loved me. What happened? repsonsibilities and dissapointments and no tools to work together.

Thanks for even listiening... I feel like I am going crazy.

Hugs, H

ps, not goig to stop counseling, but try as long as he will go... and if he stops completely plan b... i know I can. I still have trouble wanting too much contact to repair rebuild, as I feel the seperation drawing us apart, and the alcohol fogging him out. I feel like he is just drawn to anyone who will be nice to him and kind eeven if he is a drunk.. people who will accept that.

I can keep up the counseling, but distance from anything short of loving and kind behavior... right? That is my plan for now.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ December 19, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

Honey - You are sounding so much better - you can definately see a change in your posting - You are asking yourself the same questions that alot of people here have been asking you for a long time.... You know everytime I read your posts like I have said in the past you remind me of myself - but my favorite saying from high school comes back to me: If you love something set it free, if it comes back to you it is yours and if it doesn't then it was never meant to be - I remember I used to have this poster in my room.. I know that you are waiting for the man you love to come out - but right now he is lost - and like you I also am continually blamed for everything that he has ever done wrong - it is always twisted back into being my fault - last week I was told that I forced him to have an affair because our sex life was boring - ok well you know I am not going to buy the guilt swung at me anymore and neither should you... Maybe Gibby is right - maybe you should plan b or a modified plan b - kind of act like a child only speak when spoken to - type of thing... Who knows - everytime you back off he comes running somewhat - maybe it will really work - if you say ok fine - whatever - It is a new year coming and I deserve to be happy - with or without you - I would like you to be part of my life but if you don't want to well than fine - I am not saying give up on him - just make him think that you are??? Keep up the good work....

Maw said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not saying give up on him - just make him think that you are??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maw, I'm not trying to be picky here, but Honey can't pretend to do a Plan B. If it (Plan B) is not real, not sincere, and the true last chance to save the M then it won't work. That's why only Honey will know when it is time.

IMHO, until she is ready to give up on him, there will be little to no real change in Jim.

Honey, it's YOUR timetable.

Gib

Gibby - you are correct I do agree - I just don't think that Honey is ready to do that or wants to do that - but the point I wanted to make was for her to back off a little bit - don't try so hard - let him think that she has given up and isn't so needy - You know I could be totally wrong but that was only my opinion - sorry to be incorrect...

Maw:

You weren't incorrect <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ! I knew what you meant. I just wanted to clarify it so everyone knew the good suggestion you had made. Maw, you and yours have a great holiday...

Me, I get to make my Grandfathers (God rest his soul) famous super spiked egg nog. And then watch all my realtives get sloshy at my house!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

None for me though!

Honey, I'm sending you a wish for happy thoughts and a clear picture of where you want to be for next year!

Gib

Gibby,

Addiction/aloholism is so tragic. People like you who are able to pull themselves out of it are truly remarkable. I've forgotten the statistics I used to know; but the odds are not good.

In my case unfortunately my XH's bottom was lower than losing me. I remember being so devastated that he couldn't choose me over the alcohol. But that's where in my thinking it gets sticky. How much choice do alcoholics really have? What was your turning point? Did you make a conscious choice? It's so hard to really understand; unless you've walked in those shoes. CSue

Hey CSue -

I don't want to steal Honey's thread so maybe I'll start a new one asking others like me (addicts of some kind) what made them change?

Been a while since I started a thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...

Gib

Thanks Gib,

It would probably come across better coming from you. As you can see I'm still haunted, so very open to learning more about this disease. Thanks, CSue

((((((((((((((Honey))))))))))))))))
I cried as I read your words today. I am so sorry for the pain,frustration and despair that you are feeling right now. I had no children at home when my H had his A and I was no longer working at the time,so I don't know if having to take care of kids and work while going through all of this helps or makes it worse.If I was nearby I would help you any way I possibly could,like cleaning,play with the kids,pick up things from the store,help you find great christmas presents for a small amount of money(I became the expert at that one years ago when I was on my own with 2 children),hugs,smiles and more. My deep concern for you comes from understanding what it is like to have someone you love have the disease of addiction destroying their life and the world you live in. My xH was an alcoholic,my dad was an alcoholic and worse than that,my son was an alcoholic/drug addict.Your H is focused on his addiction.The A and his behavior are symptoms of his disease.
My son had major problems for about 2 years.He tried AA/NA,church,rehab in 4 different places trying to stop for me,his GF, his AA sponsor and his small son. He could/would not,whatever one chooses to believe,let it go completely(the fence)and was on a course of destruction. After losing so much and so many he finally came to the place HE was ready to get sober and clean for HIMSELF.He got into a program that is for everyone regardless of the name of the program called TEEN CHALLENGE. He has been clean,sober and living a progressive,fruitful, wonderful life for 4 years now! These are his words that he tells anyone who is ready for sobriety.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you are 100% ready to conquer the disease that is controlling your life,your death and your eternity, you must become spiritually AND emotionally fit.Doing just one will not work.If you read the entire serenity prayer,you will find at least one true answer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I do not want to offend anyone who has a different belief than I have.I honestly post this to try to help someone.Honey, I felt this might help you in some way to understand your H and what is probably contributing to his behavior. The entire serenity prayer is also a comfort to christian believers.AA/NA does not use the entire prayer and that is all right as there are those who have different beliefs or none at all. There are some who have no higher power at the time they come to the place of beginning sobriety and would be confused if something is forced on them and that is understandable.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
accepting hardship as the pathway to peace.
Taking,as he did,this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will;
that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
and extremely happy in the next. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had IC years ago to help me with the effects of living with a dad and an H with the disease of addiction. I did not bring any of that baggage into my present marriage.My H and I was in counselling to help us deal with my S and it helped us a lot to learn how to deal with acceptance and how not to enable him. I sincerely want to get to the place where I can live this serenity prayer. Wouldn't it be great to have the peace of totally accepting that way of living? I am a lot like Mortarman.I have made the decision to turn it all over to God and accept whatever His will is for my life and then I get back in the way of God handling things. As if He needs my help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I am like most everyone here. I want to have a great marriage again.
Oh, I want to help you and your H so much. How I wish I had the capabilities and the resources to reach out and help all who are living this hell on earth of betrayal, deceit,addictions and more. I sit here at this computer and write posts to people and then erase them thinking it is of no use,not good enough,just shouting in a void, others have much better advice or I will stir up a conflict.I know that you all have told me to post and I am trying. This post is very special to me as I feel I have information that might help and I hope that it does.
Your H is focused on his addiction,Honey,and that leaves him very little time,concern,or compassion for anyone or anything else except the people,places and things that will continue to enable him to stay in his addiction. I am sure he is truly a wonderful man with many fantastic qualities.I read that from some of your previous posts of not wanting others to be mean to him. I was that way too. I told those who knew about my H's A, to please not hate him but to love him and show him the forgiveness as I and God have shown him.I have days on the roller coaster when I feel all kinds of feelings but I can look at my H and know that this was once the most wonderful.caring,loving,honest man in the world before his A with the OW.I am beginning to see that man come back around in the last few days.
I apologize for being so long. I am slowly coming out of my own fog and I might make some mistakes so please take all that I say to you as true concern and heartfelt desire to offer some relief through understanding.I so hope that everything will work out for you,your relationship will be rebuilt and your marriage in the rebuilding stages. I will say an extra prayer for you today.As difficult as it is right now, please take care of yourself and know that you are special." God don't make no junk! "
I want to tell you,again,that I appreciate your posts to me and to everyone. May you hear the whisper of angel wings around you as I ask God to send you some extra ones to comfort you at this time.Tis the season.

Hi, Just got home and exhausted again... I have to work a bit tonight too! .... ugh. So, I will try cking in later.

Thanks for your heartwarming posts, and support. This is the hardest thing I have ever been through.. but at least he is still alive and I still have a chance to show him love... what is sad is when he thinks I am trying to hurt him when all I ever wanted to do was love him.. but of course it is all my fault... ! ;(

Hugs, H

King's Kid,

I wanted to reply to you. Thanks for your long post to me. I am still feeling a bit wiped out, b/c the last conversation with my h, was not good and I am still hurting some from it.

My children are not behaving well today and I have had a splitting headache. I need to do some Christmas shopping and am afraid to go into the stores with a 4 yr. old. My 10 yr old is really stressing me out, as he missed a phone call invite to the movies, and now blames me for it.

I cannot stand these fits the kids are having. The kids don't seem to understand that we don't have the money we would normally have for Christmas....

I do make a decent salary, but stood up to a sexist supervisor last week and now am being watched under a microscope. I hate it, it is not very fair. I hope I don't lose my job for standing up for myself.

I really appreciate your kind note about wanting to help me if you could. Your kind thoughts help- I feel like my older son is taking advantage of my kindness to him and acting up even more, though I know he is under stress. The little one seems a little pushy to me at times too. I really think I am a nice mom ,and I am not being appreciated.

It is hard to put up with ungrateful children when I give all I can and it is not enough, and at the same time a grown adult man doing the same kind of thing.. having fits and blaming me for all his issues in life.

I hate it and don't feel very loved lately. Thanks for being supportive here in the forum. Thanks for being here...

I just feel wiped out , if it is not my h yelling at me, or my 2 sons moaning and groaning, I just dont know what... At least my 4 yr old is still a lovey dovey... My 10 yr old seems to think if we are not doing what he wants, the world is off it's course... Sounds a lot like his self centered dad.

Thanks for being here, and sorry I got off track, I am right now dealing with the fit, tears and jerky behavior of my son who is mad that we missed his invite to the movies.

thanks for being here, hopefully I won't have another splitting headache.

Thanks, H

Honey, I can feel your stress as I read your words.
Tonight when the kids are bathed and ready for bed,tell them you want to have a serious talk with them. Keep a soft,calm voice and tell them that you are aware that things are not the way they want them to be and you do not like them this way either. Tell them that first of all it is not their fault for their dad being gone and that you are sorry that he has problems within himself that has made him make this choice.Again it is not their fault but this is a learning experience about how a persons behavior and decisions can affect everyone around them. Tell them that life happens this way sometimes and it can be a learning experience and that you need their help right now.Tell them that you are sorry that Christmas will be different this year than before but all their complaining,crying and fussing will not change it and that it only makes things worse for them and for you. Ask them to please help you and that you are always there when they are sick,have problems or sad and that you really need them to be there for you right now and not be so ungrateful and unruly.Again, explian how their behavior and decisions affect you and everyone around them. Say that you know it is hard for them as well and that everyone needs to pull together and it will help make everyone better if they would do so.Tell them how much you love them and need them and appreciate them. LAY IT ON THICK AND AT LEAST MAYBE THEY WILL BE BETTER UNTIL YOUR HEADACHE GOES AWAY. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I care about you and I can imagine the anxiety and stress level you are enduring.I will say a prayer for you and the kids. I have already started prayer for Jim. I find great joy in in knowing I have said something that gives you any hope,peace or feelings of understanding.You have my support,prayers,and concern.
I apologize for my long posts. I will try to shorten them.

Thanks Kings Kid,

Kids calmed down a bit, boy.. don't know if I could ever be a teacher. I used to be soo patient, but tired today, and in need of rest.

Kids are hungry now, so dinner is next on my list... my parents will prob. watch them a bit tonight so I can shop! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> At least I have a bit of cash.

We went into a hobby store earlier today and there were frames galore on sale... So I decided to give pic's to ws and also to inlaws for holiday gifts. I got a wonderful one of Jim and I for an 8x10 for him... who knows he may decide to rip it up, but you can't say I am not trying... I also got him a small one of me looking quite beautiful I must say.. and one of the 4 of us. Now normally I would give 2 of the kids and one of me, but I see and notice how I have put our relationship on the back burner and the kids on the front, and how that is part of the issue.. so for now, our relationship is on the front... at least when I deal with him.

My headache went away, but I fear it could come back.

I like that talking to, you suggest for the kids. I tried very hard this afternoon to talk to my older son, but he had the feeling sorry for himself blues... which I hate. My parents are quite supportive, and actually my kids will still be getting good gifts , just maybe not as many... older son will get the game cube.. but I think he is convinced he is not getting his choice gift due to my financial woes.

NOw Jim does need prayer- so thank you very much. With the holiday at hand I think he must be going nuts... as he has been very blaming and angry for most of the week. Everything is my fault...ya know. It got better for a while, and now worse again.

I just got a phone call from my sister, so will go.

Hugs and thanks to you, Honey