</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, unfair though it is, the BS has to provide safe conditions for the WS to expose their frailties and explore themselves. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There it is.

the exact same attitude that makes it unsafe to resolve issues before it has the potential to end a marriage... and so so many cling to it right to the bitter end.

the best analogy i can come up with because its all over the board and always has been is the guys like ILMF, K, Mike C2 who are doing everything within their power to provide a safe haven for the healing of their spouse around sex.

The pounding that these guys got and continue to get over making sure that at all costs they ensure that their spouse has the safest possible environment to heal and that their love of them should sustain them through what ever protracted period of time that is neccessary for that recovery.

over and over and over the same (accurate mind you) advice is poured over this exact scene.

yet time and time and time again i sit and hear the above quoted sentiment about how its unreasonable for the BS to have considered or allowed for or even to currently allow for this type of healing for the person who they supposedly loved with all their heart...

its true that there are selfish jerks who just dont have the character within them to keep it in their pants, but far far more often at least in my experiance here on MB the tale is told that this is completely out of character and there was a slow destructive pattern that the BS saw and participated in.

most addicts require some enablers, the same is true with co-dependants, and many other kinds of self destructive behaviors. how few people i see here look at what their role in this is or was.

So no its not fair, not much of life is, but we choose the people in our lives, we profess our love for them, and its precisly at that moment when it gets unfair that we are needed the most. too many times this is the moment where people get selfish, they roll up the doors and lock out the ones they have said they love and will support, some even capitalize on the weakness after all it can give them more control and power in their lives.

and then they watch as the people "Self Destruct" as though they are above it all.

did these folks cause it? are they responsible? oh no you see its all on the destructee.

i am not arguing personal responsibilty, we are all responsible for what we do and the choices we make dont get me wrong. and the person who is choosing to have an affair has no one to blame but themself. I'll never defend the act, never have never will. what i am trying to say is that the BS made choices as well and the lack of general acknowledgment of that just keeps the same environment that existed prior to the A as alive as ever.

question your actions your decisions how did you enable the WS? what things HAVE to change within you to make it possible for healing on both of your behalf?

there is never an argument about the change neccessary in a WS its expected, a given. but from where i am coming from there is little very little support and guidance given the BS about how to look within themselves to discover how the very things they did provided the environment that supported said destruction.

i am not asking that people take the blame for the Affair (thats the typical responce) it just kills me how its so rare that a BS contributes the "Environment" and willingly acknowledges the role.

a BS must commit to change just as a WS must, that is if the objective it to rebuild the marriage and not just get the old one back.

im suggesting the old one wasnt working and not just because the WS wasnt.

chazbutler,

All A has the same underlying theme but each A is unique due to the environment that it occurs. Therefore there is no 1-Medicine-4-All, some cases need "tough love", some cases need "180 degree", some cases need planA/B and many variation of it. I always suggested that MB'er should consult with the professional, they know best since they have full access to your situation. We are here only to give our opinion base on our experience/reading and what you tell us.

Yes all of BS is threading a very thin line between helping and enabling. Check my enabling link on my signature. The one of basic rule of thumb to when BS should go to plan B is when WS rejects the plan A of BS. I mean when BS is done "fixing" and WS is acknowledging the change yet still choose to stay in the A. I was complete doormat when I have to do my plan A, even SH told me that I am a very strongman emotionally. However when she rejected my plan A by filing Dv (out of guilt probably on what she was doing but couldn't do it), I stop my plan A as soon as she imposed NC on me. Now, 11 days from my DV, I am counting down to celebrate it. I have no regret doing my plan A, I gave my best and my best wasn't good enough for her therefore I will take that to someone speciall, someone that will cherrish and care what I could give her ... a new and improve RH <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

What make you post today ?. Where are you now ?.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ultimately, only the cheater can sort himself / herself out, and this takes a lot of personal courage. Yet cheating, by definition, implies a lack of courage. So, unfair though it is, the BS has to provide safe conditions for the WS to expose their frailties and explore themselves. And the risk exists that the 'real' WS that is uncovered may not be what the BS wants or needs. Facing up to that takes courage from the BS too.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Look @ the quote in its entirety.

Life IS mostly unfair... if we are living to serve OURSELVES.... when we live to please only our own lives...

When we live to serve God and others... perhaps then we see the cup half full...

Ask not "WHY," but "WHAT"... What am I supposed to learn... What are You teaching me... What do I need to change...

Hugs and Happy Holidays...

Cali

What made me post.

good question, ive posted a bunch in the past few days after a long period of just really lurking.

i guess im really frustrated with the direction of the board.

the glib advise, the lack of introspetion and the tendancy to just lay it all on the WS.

the lack of Harley principled guidance.

the tendancy to beat the few WS who do show their faces into the ground before they get a chance to learn and be learned from.

the trolls who post preposterous things that are intended only to inflame the BS and how they get attention.

I am personally so far ahead of where i was 3 years ago personally its an amazing process (Becoming a man that is!) i wish i had learned this growing up! rest assured my sons will.

my marriage is what it is, i am patiently waiting for my lovely bride to awaken, to begin to look within herself and learn what it is to be a Woman. to do the WORK. that will free her spirit and her soul.

I am a happy man, and a happy father, i know that i am a wonderful husband that is worthy of all life has to offer.

I am desperatly waiting for my wife to open her spirit and her soul as i know her heart is with me, but its the rest of her that keeps her from being close. Just as it was before it is now. only now I am A MAN.

Chaz...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> guess im really frustrated with the direction of the board.

the glib advise, the lack of introspetion and the tendancy to just lay it all on the WS.

the lack of Harley principled guidance.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen... Amen and AMEN!

Have a GREAT Holiday SEASON...

Cali

Chaz,

I don't think you will find many BSes on this forum who will argue against both parties accepting responsibility for the state of the marriage prior to an A.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but far far more often at least in my experiance here on MB the tale is told that this is completely out of character and there was a slow destructive pattern that the BS saw and participated in. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I percieve you failing to realize is that many BSes are telling you, that yes, they saw the destructive patterns, they realized that something was wrong, and that they tried to get help. They tried to make it better. In the end there was nothing they could do because the spouse refused to see their own problems or even own up to the fact that they had problems. At what point does it become a personal choice the WS makes where the BS is not at fault whatsoever?

I completely agree with you that the BS needs to own up to their shortcomings. I agree that the BS should create a safehaven for the WS to return. These things are a small but very important part of responsibility to the BS. But this certianly is not the sole responsibility of the betrayed. Perhaps in the beginning it is. But I imagine bitterness would set in quite quickly if the WS doesn't step up and get their act together fast.

Pointing fingers at the betrayed and telling them they caused this to happen in any way shape or form is no more than guilt transferrence. In my opinion WSes who do this are doing exactly the same thing as many BSes have said. They are refusing to see that they have a problem. These WS are not owning their addiction, depression, MLC, or whatever else we could call it.

Both must own there portion of the state of the marriage. Both must do the work to recover. Get rid of the blame game.

Cali,

Queen of introspection and change!

hey just so i dont forget to give props.

Peppermint!!!!

wow what a radically different thought process and seemingly true sense of loving forgivness and positiveness. Now that from my pespective is CHANGE!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chazbutler:
<strong>i guess im really frustrated with the direction of the board.

the glib advise, the lack of introspetion and the tendancy to just lay it all on the WS.

the lack of Harley principled guidance.

the tendancy to beat the few WS who do show their faces into the ground before they get a chance to learn and be learned from</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cannot, of course, address your frustration.

But I disagree with your assessment of the "direction" of this forum. Granted, some posters don't understand or attempt to inflame, but the vast majority of posters I follow, both BSs and WSs either already "get it" or soon do.

And ditto jd.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Get rid of the blame game. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly!!!!

you dont seem to be able to seperate what caused the A from what caused the marriage to become a non determinant factor in the mind of the WS.

stop blaming the WS alone for what THE MARRIAGE has become.

the A generally isnt what destroyed the marriage, its most often destroyed prior to it.(EDIT) I understand that it may be what destroyed it for you, but its not the cause in reality.

i hear these kinds of things

that they self destructed

they have a syndrom

they are addicted

they were or are selfish

they are transferring guilt

bs's are playing the BLAME GAME no less than any WS ive seen here.

but what they are not doing is building marriage anew.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These things are a small but very important part of responsibility to the BS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you see your opinion of the very thing that leads to recovery is that it is small.

when you do this thing you realize how huge it is. how difficult how much energy and effort it requires. the daily discipline and the commitment to make it happen is larger than any task ever set before me. and is quite possible the most important thing you see when i look at providing a safe place for my wife to heal i understand that she becomes vunerable to the world and I am charged with keeping the space safe from not only the world but from the damage I can do.

You appearently dont get that, when you find that place where your truely committed to providing that space the person to whom you have committed yourself to will allow themselves to seek health not before.

Why you ask? because they cannot trust that you will cause them no harm.

because you can ask the question why dont they just do it, why didnt they just divorce, why are they so weak means that you dont get it.

<small>[ December 20, 2002, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: chazbutler ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chazbutler:
<strong> ILMF, K, Mike C2 ... The pounding that these guys got and continue to get...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And herein lies the problem. They ain't gettin' no pounding!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Excuse the levity! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Listen chaz... you have EVERY RIGHT to have your feelings, opinions, etc... and Lord knows this place is full of people just trying to do their best and understand what the hell happened to them (especially the BS's - and how well I understand)...

... you just can't generalize at all when it comes to infidelity... because for some it sure does seem to come out of the blue, for some it is no surprise at all, for some they did try to save it before it drowned, and for some they are just horriible spouses and pushed the other away... but... that doesn't mean they got pushed to an other person... the choice is at that precise moment, you know? (Oh, and remember that *I* do know, as I was once a WS as well.)

Keep thinking chaz... it's one of the things that's really neat about you.

<small>[ December 20, 2002, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>

hey NB,

no arguement, I am not nor will i ever say its what caused a WS to turn to another. thats the weakness within a WS that does that.

what i am shooting for is the reality that there is a difference between that weakness and what makes a marriage a non determinant factor in a WS mind at that moment in time.

and the impact on a WS when the BS acts as if they wernt there for all thats happend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chazbutler:
<strong>[QUOTE]stop blaming the WS alone for what THE MARRIAGE has become.

the A generally isnt what destroyed the marriage, its most often destroyed prior to it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chaz - are you snl? His twin?

I'll not waste any more time with you after this.

We clearly have different perceptions of the prevailing attitude of the BSs on this forum. Once BSs get knowledgable of MB principles, I see very, very few who do not acknowledge their roles in creating the poor marital environment that gave the WS, in whole or in part, the excuse for having the affair.

I couldn't disagree more with the second statement, above. The marriage is made weak and vulnerable by the pre-A conditions. It is violated by the betrayal of the WS. It's not destroyed until one or both spouses end it. Around here, that's usually an act by the WS either directly via divorce or indirectly via the BS's divorce due to non-participation of the WS long after the affair started.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong>I'll not waste any more time with you after this.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dave, this is so not like you... am I missing something here?

Yeah chaz is a deep thinker, as I am. Yeah, he hashes things out in his mind a LOT, as I do too. But I don't read that he's putting the blame on the BS for the infidelity... what don't I see???

In the quote you referenced above, about the marriage being destroyed before the infidelity, I *do* see what chaz is getting at... when it's so bad that someone strays it's a wake up call for repair or letting go... and often times, the marriage is deeply in trouble when the affair occurs. I dare say, it's over, at least the marriage that *was* before the infidelity.

You don't agree?

OMG WAT!!!!!!!!! I think you're right! Thank you, thank you, thank you for asking Chaz if it's SNL!

I was having trouble figuring out why my head has been spinning with these Chaz posts--it's the same as when it spun with the SNL posts until I quit reading them. Even if these two are not the same person, I know that reading these posts starts my head going in a bad direction. That's why I thank you so much WAT!

However, there was one post near the beginning of one of these Chaz threads that got my head back on straight--I'm going to find it and save it for the next time I start thinking that it might be ok to have an affair instead of waiting until divorce is final.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What you can do is whittle down his excuses via Plan A </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you see WAT this is a good example of a poorly applied piece of advice.

Plan A isnt to whittle down his excuses is it?

maybe ive had the wrong impression all along.

Plan A is supposed to be about reminding the WS or in my case BS why they love you at a time when its difficult for them to see you clearly.

and if there are in fact things that you change about your behavior isnt that infact a CLUE to something???

SNL was a guy who i never let rest, he was the bain of WS's in recovery.

I took time with him as i am taking time now to ensure that the dysfunction of his thought process didnt poison the well.

You and many others appreciated that because he was a WS.

I a similarly addressing now what hits me as a similar poison. only its about a tone or rising tide of opinion instead of an individual. and yes it has to do with BS's.

I get that its not popular to put the BS on the spot to question them or ask them to be introspective. but it is what it takes to lead them to a place where they genuinly work to rebuild the marriage. and not just stay the course or abandon it all together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by new_beginning:
<strong> But I don't read that he's putting the blame on the BS for the infidelity... what don't I see???

In the quote you referenced above, about the marriage being destroyed before the infidelity, I *do* see what chaz is getting at... when it's so bad that someone strays it's a wake up call for repair or letting go... and often times, the marriage is deeply in trouble when the affair occurs. I dare say, it's over, at least the marriage that *was* before the infidelity.

You don't agree?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and no.

Perhaps we're seeing different things, my dear friend, Sheryl.

Of course, figuratively speaking, the good marriage was over, but the Marriage is not. That was my only point there.

Regarding the blame thingy; I don't read, either, that he's putting the blame on the BS. Rather, I read he's over generalizing that BSs don't own up to their contributions to the poor marital environemt sufficiently and he seems to want, just as snl did, to shift inordinate blame to the BS for the affair because the BS didn't do enough to correct the pre-A marital conditions and, once the affair starts, to seek out and fix things then.

I think it was on Cali's thread that the discussion covered why the BS doesn't work harder to fix things once the affair starts. I replied that in just about every case that we see here, the WS gives such lame excuses for the affair that the BS doesn't know up from down. How can you fix, "You bought Coke and never Pepsi."? Well yes, Plan A directs that the BS now start buying Pepsi. Remove that excuse - even if, on its face - its ludicrous as a justification for an affair.

WAT

The question was why the BS didnt try harder before the A not after or during. why is it that there is a flury of activity after the A but not before when it likly would have changed the outcome.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A directs that the BS now start buying Pepsi. Remove that excuse - even if, on its face - its ludicrous as a justification for an affair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">here again your minimizing the process, Plan A is an attempt to lead the person WS/BS alike who ever it applying it to the hole. the hole that the OP fell into, the one that all of a sudden made the WS feel different than they did the day before.

its not pepsi vs coke its you used to be someone you no longer are and thats part of why i married you. why did you change and not care?

if you dont believe in the Plan of attack why comment at all?

<small>[ December 20, 2002, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: chazbutler ]</small>

what harley says

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me quote from "Surviving an Affair:"

You may think that after a spouse willfully chooses a lover (over the betrayed spouse), there would be no hope for marital reconciliation, but that's not true. While there is no hope for reconciliation when the affair is underway, as soon as the affair is ended, reconciliation is definitely possible. And almost all affairs end sooner than most people think they will.
But for the betrayed spouse, waiting for the affair to end seems like an eternity. The wayward spouse can't seem to make up his or her mind -- one moment committing to the marriage and the next moment committing to the lover. To help a betrayed spouse survive that painful period of vacillation -- the time it takes for an affair to die a natural death -- I recommend two plans. If the first plan (plan A) is unsuccessful in separating the wayward spouse from the lover, the second plan (plan B) is followed until the affair is ended. This sequence -- plan A followed by plan B -- represents the most sensible approach to handling a wayward spouse's inability to decide between the lover and the betrayed spouse.

So, then, what is plan A and plan B?

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ December 20, 2002, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: chazbutler ]</small>

when is the last time anyone drug out the 4 rules or gave advise in accordance with it, i just dont see MB advise i dont..

Harley " If you were to follow these four rules as part of your plan for recovery, I guarantee you that you will not only eliminate the problems that led you to separate, but you will also resolve many other conflicts that have prevented you from having a successful marriage.
"

The Four Rules
for a Successful Marriage

The Rule of Care:
Meet Your Spouse's Most Important Emotional Needs

You and your spouse fell in love with each other because you met some of each other's emotional needs, and the only way to stay in love is to keep meeting those needs. Even when the feeling of love begins to fade, or when it's gone entirely, it's not necessarily gone for good. It can be recovered whenever you both go back to being an expert at depositing love units. First, be sure you know what each other's needs are (complete the Emotional Needs Questionnaire). Then, learn to meet those needs in a way that is fulfilling to your spouse, and enjoyable for you, too.

The Rule of Protection:
Avoid Being the Cause of Your Spouse's Unhappiness

When you meet each other's most important emotional needs, you become each other's source of greatest happiness. But if you are not careful, you can also become each other's source of greatest unhappiness. That's why the Rule of Protection is so important.
It's pointless to deposit love units if you withdraw them right away.
The Rule of Honesty

Honesty and Openness is one of the ten most important emotional needs identified in marriage, which means that when it's met, it can trigger the feeling of love. But it's counterpart, dishonesty, is one of the five most destructive Love Busters. When spouses are dishonest, they destroy the love they have for each other.
But there is a third reason that honesty is crucial in marriage. Honesty is the only way that you and your spouse will ever come to understand each other. Without honesty, the adjustments that are crucial to the creation of compatibility in your marriage cannot be made.

The Rule of Time:
Take Time to Give Your Spouse Your Undivided Attention
The Rule of Time unlocks the door to the other three rules. Without time you will not be able to meet each other's emotional needs nor will you be able to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness. Time is also a basic requirement for honesty. Time for undivided attention is the necessary ingredient for everything that's important in marriage.
And yet, as soon as most couples marry, and especially when children arrive, couples usually replace their time together with activities of lesser importance.

<small>[ December 20, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: chazbutler ]</small>