chaz,
i am mostly a lurker, visiting from another forum. but i have read everything over the past nine months on this site (i think i have anyway)
the forums here are new to me, and very face paced.

i just wanted to say thank you for your insightfulness in this thread. it is one thing to read atheory, another to see it quoted and defended so vehemently in "everyday life". i needed that reminder today.

i agree somewhat with the "why do i have to do all the work, its so unfair" i have thought that myself... BUT i would never say it outloud to my ws, and i push it out of my mind the second it appears. it is a selfish thought, a self-pity thought and it destroys love. i am certainly not perfect, but i know that life is just not fair - but so what?

i think that saying "its not fair" or "poor me" is a bit odd actually. i think of even simple things like .. when was the last time you went to a store and bought something and said "i paid exactly the right price for it"? usually people feel that they got ripped off, or they got a steal.

people are too used to watching out for themselves and not used to giving or putting others first. it is a shame. life is not fair. i agree. but who wants to live by that ? i sure don't. life is still incredible, and its pretty amazing what giving and loving can do... what incredible results they can yeild. and even if you think they don't have results... give anyway. it doesnt hurt.

well, i wish i were more eloquent, but there you have it.
thanks again for your words of wisdom

Quote: The question was why the BS didnt try harder before the A not after or during. why is it that there is a flury of activity after the A but not before when it likly would have changed the outcome

But what then can we say if there are BS's out there that tried even harder to help correct anything that might be helping the WS have the A, before it even took place? Then after being discovered the WS moves straight to the blame game breaking down communication even further and BS also starts having to deal with OP's influence on WS behavior,thus, begins a whole new ballgame.

I have been
reading the threads that Chaz and Wat and JD, have been writing and I agree with so much but I also see the same things being rehashed and said only using different sentencing.

The Plan A and plan B works and then for some it does not work and it's really not placing blame on BS/WS. It then becomes an individual journey that can not be lumped or generalized here on MB or in any therapy session.

There are people who worked there butts off before and after the A and still are no where near a healthier relationship as far as M goes; but hopefully they are (in practicing the principles here and thru counseling) growing new perspectives that make their future relationships as healthy as they can be.

My position is that some outcomes are going to be the way they are based on the psychological and sub-conscious programming of the individual and can not be changed no matter what was or was not done before the A or during or after. JMHO, now let the lashings begin....

One more thing, I do not think there is a BS on this forum, (that I have met), that has not taken reponsponsiblity for problems in the M, but I can also say there are BS's that blamed themselves for their WS's decisions in the A, and that is something that I do not agree with, we make our choices: right, wrong or indifferent, can not blame yourself for something or someone you have no control over.

Again, let the lashings begin...

darn double post
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ December 20, 2002, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: chazbutler ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Neesha:
But what then can we say if there are BS's out there that tried even harder to help correct anything that might be helping the WS have the A, before it even took place?

??? i dont understand what you asked here

Then after being discovered the WS moves straight to the blame game breaking down communication even further and BS also starts having to deal with OP's influence on WS behavior,thus, begins a whole new ballgame.

but you see there is a plan here that advises what can and likely will happen and how to begin to deal with it.

How to Survive Infidelity

article after article written by Harley on topics like:

Coping with Infidelity: Beginning (Part 1)

Coping with Infidelity: The End (Part 2)

Coping with Infidelity: Restoring (Part 3)

Coping with Infidelity: Resentment (Part 4)

Recovery After an Affair

Unfaithful Husband #1

Unfaithful Husband #2

Unfaithful Husband #3

Unfaithful Husband #4

Unfaithful Husband #5

Unfaithful Wife #1

Unfaithful Wife #2

Unfaithful Wife #3

Unfaithful Wife #4

What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife #5

How to Avoid an Affair #1

How to Avoid an Affair #2

The Lover's Perspective on Infidelity #1

The Lover's Perspective on Infidelity #2

Recovering Sexual Desire

Infidelity on the Internet #1

Infidelity on the Internet #2

Infidelity on the Internet #3

Infidelity on the Internet #4

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? #1

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? #2

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? #3

Pregnant with a Lover's Child #1

Pregnant with a Lover's Child #2

What Are Plan A and Plan B?

There is information all around us but seldom refrenced any more. and all kinds of self endorsed approaches and other psych priciples fly about is that what the MB fourum is here for and about?

I have been
reading the threads that Chaz and Wat and JD, have been writing and I agree with so much but I also see the same things being rehashed and said only using different sentencing.

someone once told me that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over all the while expecting a different result.

kind of the message i am trying to send but it applies to your observation as well.

The Plan A and plan B works and then for some it does not work and it's really not placing blame on BS/WS. It then becomes an individual journey that can not be lumped or generalized here on MB or in any therapy session.

the end result of an effective plan a then plan b doesnt result in being in the same place. the marriage is better or it over. some may not like or agree but it is the plan. doesnt mean that you have to use it, or believe in it, unless of course you are at the foumn created and intended to support its implemntation1!!

There are people who worked there butts off before and after the A and still are no where near a healthier relationship as far as M goes; but hopefully they are (in practicing the principles here and thru counseling) growing new perspectives that make their future relationships as healthy as they can be.

some yes and there are some here who are saints and real MB vets who have had great success and some who had failure but still believe in the program. there are also alot who dont know the program dont like the program, dont teach the program and simply imply that the ws deserves a 2x4 shot to the head or to simply divorce the bum. and along the way they commissorate with the fellow BS about how wrong it all is without intrapection.

My position is that some outcomes are going to be the way they are based on the psychological and sub-conscious programming of the individual and can not be changed no matter what was or was not done before the A or during or after. JMHO, now let the lashings begin....

there are some people who are beyond help, but i think that is rarer then implied. and i dont doubt that they exist here. I generally only comment when its really obvious that a WS or BS is adamant that they were innocent of all charges or say things that are backhanded platitudes (yes thats true but not in my case)

One more thing, I do not think there is a BS on this forum, (that I have met), that has not taken reponsponsiblity for problems in the M,

sigh, i bet you havent.

but I can also say there are BS's that blamed themselves for their WS's decisions in the A, and that is something that I do not agree with, we make our choices: right, wrong or indifferent, can not blame yourself for something or someone you have no control over.

All True very true.

Again, let the lashings begin...

dont give em unless im getting them.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ December 20, 2002, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: chazbutler ]</small>

Quote: Quote: The question was why the BS didnt try harder before the A not after or during. why is it that there is a flury of activity after the A but not before when it likly would have changed the outcome

Was responding to that quote, simple. I and I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong, was reading about the energy being put into the M before the A happens. That is what I have gathered in reading the threads, Also in reading your post about the principles of MB and how the steps work.

Quote: but you see there is a plan here that advises what can and likely will happen and how to begin to deal with it

Yes in healing, but as far as putting the M back on a healthy track, does not hold true to every case, that was what I was addressing. Yes, everything about surviving an affair, and the MB principles etc, they help us grow internally, but some might feel for instance; that a generality could apply that will bring the M back together if one does everything one should do according to plan A, B, C, D. I feel that when we educate ourselves by reading or practicing certain techniques, therapies, etc, it for our internal growth that helps us resolve issues that have caused stumbling blocks in our realtionships, that only we can change..not change anyone else that we are involved with. But in changing internally we can have an affect on others that might bring them to search out methods that work for them in the future, and in gaining healthy perspectives of what entrapped them to take certain self-defeating avenues. Does that make sense to you now?

Qoute: One more thing, I do not think there is a BS on this forum, (that I have met), that has not taken reponsponsiblity for problems in the M,

Quoted by Chaz: sigh, i bet you havent

I said that because I do not read every single thread so it was based on the ones I have read. Now as to why you had to sigh, and say what you said, .....I could only guess, will not try to offer comment on that as I feel that it was a bated statement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Neesha:
Yes in healing, but as far as putting the M back on a healthy track, does not hold true to every case,

absolutly about putting a Marriage back on track, HNHN , Love Busters, 4 Rules, are all about reparing marriages before and A, only SAA address After. I even think the sub-title of HNH is "Affair proof your marriage"

and no not every case, but this is the place to work on and with the MB concepts and priciples.

"that was what I was addressing. Yes, everything about surviving an affair, and the MB principles etc, they help us grow internally,

but some might feel for instance; that a generality could apply that will bring the M back together if one does everything one should do according to plan A, B, C, D.

I feel that when we educate ourselves by reading or practicing certain techniques, therapies, etc, it for our internal growth that helps us resolve issues that have caused stumbling blocks in our realtionships, that only we can change.

.not change anyone else that we are involved with.

But in changing internally we can have an affect on others that might bring them to search out methods that work for them in the future, and in gaining healthy perspectives of what entrapped them to take certain self-defeating avenues.

Does that make sense to you now?

i read that like 8 times and i still dont think i understand what you were trying to say.

the last sentance sounds like a really big distrspectful judgement though, Have you read hear about those?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Thanks for the reply, Dave. Yes, I see now where I misunderstood a bit.

One thing~~ I don't see Chaz as sounding like snl, because snl, though he was/is highly verbose and yes, self-reflective, seemed less willing to do the work that chaz has CLEARLY *already* done for self-improvement. Yeah, they write alike, in the prose-ish kind of way, but they don't seem alike to me. Just something I wanted to say.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong>I think it was on Cali's thread that the discussion covered why the BS doesn't work harder to fix things once the affair starts. I replied that in just about every case that we see here, the WS gives such lame excuses for the affair that the BS doesn't know up from down. How can you fix, "You bought Coke and never Pepsi."? Well yes, Plan A directs that the BS now start buying Pepsi. Remove that excuse - even if, on its face - its ludicrous as a justification for an affair.

WAT</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well shoot YEAH, I see the stupid excuses, like Chris's ex's Pepsi dealy <still shaking head at THAT one>... and agree totally.

I *don't* agree with "most" WS's here, or anywhere, coming up with bogus excuses. Many *I* have seen here, and met, including me, have a deep-rooted remorse for what they've done, and no excuse is good enough for them/me. Maybe because it is through my former-WS eyes, but I see a lot of pain in most WS's. But hey, that's just me.

Even my own dear ex-WS-husband blamed everyone but himself, well... that's not exactly true... because he really didn't blame me... he blamed "society" and/or "his childhood" and/or "Satan" and/or "his weakness" (that one was true)... and yes, "the marriage"...

Oh well... infidelity is one of those things that definately doesn't have a 'one size fits all' answer.

Anyhow, thanks for explaining your position on this, and I agree to a large extent.

Quote:the last sentance sounds like a really big distrspectful judgement though, Have you read hear about those?

Whoaaaaa, it's not disrespectful to have an A??? Yes, EVERYWHERE here I have read pretty much points to that!!!! I'm staying on the topics as posted...Affairs, pre-A/post-A, MB principles in dealing with pre/post A. Surviving Affairs..I'm not losing track of the issues that have been posted for (has it been 3 days) now?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Get rid of the blame game.

Exactly!!!!
you dont seem to be able to seperate what caused the A from what caused the marriage
to become a non determinant factor in the mind of the WS.

stop blaming the WS alone for what THE MARRIAGE has become.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sigh...well I can see this is getting us nowhere. It might even be causing undo stress for others reading our posts. I have a few things to say regarding this post but first would like to say to others reading the threads the last couple of days. I do not want anyone to think I am angry towards Chaz or any other WS here. I am not nor have I been upset at him for being a WS. I have taken exception at a few things he has said, just as he obviously has with some of what I had to say. Chaz was/is one of the oldtimers who happened to be a WS and who used to really lay into the other person whose name came up, that being SNL. WAT, I assure you Chaz is not SNL. And I respect a lot of what he has written, at least in the past.

As for the above statement Chaz, I have not stated what THE MARRIAGE has become. I only made clear that I would not for a second tolorate another affair in my marriage. Yes, my wife and I have been in recovery since May. No everything is not perfect. But so long as both of us are wanting to recover and working toward that goal I do not feel you are justified in some of your replies. I know my part in the deterioration of the marriage we had before. I have made GREAT strides to change those things about myself. I have never said I had no responsibility for that state of our marriage. I took and continue to take responsibility for that time, and, I know it is my responsibility to continue to work on myself that I not become lax in the future.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:

These things are a small but very important part of responsibility to the BS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you see your opinion of the very thing that leads to recovery is that it is small.
when you do this thing you realize how huge it is. how difficult how much energy and effort
it requires </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chaz, this is just the kind of statement that that can lead to people getting mad. I am not tho.
Instead I will explain a little of what I meant. I think you would agree that recovery takes the biggest effort of probably anything we can do. You have stated as much. My statement above was only intended to mean that in the scheme of recovery they are but a part. Not the whole. Not that I thought any part of the whole was less meaningful than any other part. I hope you get this now.



</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">because you can ask the question why dont they just do it, why didnt they just divorce, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You stated that the marriage becomes a non determining factor in the minds of the WS. If this is true why not just do it? Get divorced, don't crush the life out of your spouse by having affairs. I can never explain the actual pain I endured. Perhaps the reason I debate with you so is because I find it hard to compare our pains. Yours may or may not be as severe, I do not know. This may not have effected your BS the way it did me. I would hope and pray that for myself, if my wife decides that our marriage is a non determining factor in what she does in the future, she will divorce me before she has another affair.

jd

Just a note, hope it's okay chaz...

jd,

You said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can never explain the actual pain I endured. Perhaps the reason I debate with you so is because I find it hard to compare our pains. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, this is one place that I think I can interject with some measure of true understanding - I *can* imagine both sides of the pain. No, I am not every WS, or every BS, but I can say that for ME, the pain I endured as a one-time-WS far outweighed the pain I felt as a BS (and remember, that was several times over).

I wish I could explain it in a way that could convey what the loss of integrity, the loss of respect, the loss of my SOUL, cost me spiritually and emotionally.

I can't, I'm afraid. There are no words.

But to explain my pain as a BS -- betrayed, disguisted, horrified, angry... the list goes on and on.

I'm not saying I'm everyone, and I'm not saying that I get to wear the mantle of "Most Pain Endured"... but I will say that for me, the pain as a WS will stay with me forever, while the pain of being a BS has faded with time.

Well said NB,
I can understand the differences about what pain you felt as WS/BS, some never have both to compare to. I appreciate you sharing that.

Hey am I the only one who gets what Chaz is trying to say?

Maybe I am the only person who agrees?

There IS far too much time spent by the BSes on this board in analyzing (ie blaming and judging - ie disrespectful judgements) their WS instead of taking a very hard look at themselves.

And he's right - if a BS is going to sit around whining about fairness, then there is not going to be a very high chance of recovery.

I knew my marriage was heading straight for a train wreck, and I did everything I could to fix it before my husband had his affair. The problem was that everything I did could not have been more wrong. Most of my "trying to fix" consisted of massive lovebusters: selfish demands, angry outbursts and many many many disrespectful judgements.

I have to side with Chaz on this one. There are too many BSs who are busy diagnosing their spouses with all kinds of dysfunction instead of looking very hard deep inside themselves at attitudes that contributed to the state of the marriage now.

As long as a BS can blame "alcoholism" or "narcissim" or "sex-addiction" or any number of other issues, then he/she doesn't have to do a darn thing to fix him/herself.

I am a BS that spent many years blaming alcoholism for the problems of our marriage. While it may have contributed to our problems, what I finally ended up discovering was that MY behavior was even more destructive than my alcoholic husband's.

You get to be right OR you get to be married. Not both. There's a whole lot of Rightness going on around here lately.

Hmmm .... I agree, although I must admit being guilty of looking outward instead of inward my fair share. I can only speak for myself here and I can say honestly that the reason I will allow myself this is because I live in constant introspection and am in the process of getting on with my life in the real world. The forum here is a welcome respite from that ... a place to allow the taker to stretch his legs and run a while. Better it's done here right now than with my wife. I neither ask for nor expect sympathy. But sometimes you gotta unload.

whew, thanks Bramble, New, and whip. not sure what im suggesting is all that contriversial or even strong but i guess when its a sensitive subject I get as worked up as the next guy.

I am very fortunante that this stage was very short lived with my W as i know without a doubt had it lasted or been as strong as what i see so often here it would have surely driven me away. I would hate for that to happen to BS's who are trying so hard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> See, this is one place that I think I can interject with some measure of true understanding - I *can* imagine both sides of the pain. No, I am not every WS, or every BS, but I can say that for ME, the pain I endured as a one-time-WS far outweighed the pain I felt as a BS (and remember, that was several times over).

I wish I could explain it in a way that could convey what the loss of integrity, the loss of respect, the loss of my SOUL, cost me spiritually and emotionally.

I can't, I'm afraid. There are no words.

But to explain my pain as a BS -- betrayed, disguisted, horrified, angry... the list goes on and on.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NB,

Thanks for posting this. I think it would do good if more WS could/would try to explain the pain they feel/felt at what they did, ie the affairs. No I don't mean to attempt to show that their pain is greater than the BS pain. And I don't mean to point fingers and say look at what you made me do because you were so controlling, mean, etc. See, I need WSes to make me understand this aspect from their side simply because I do not understand it like my own pain. This is the one big area that my wife refuses to really talk about.

BR,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There IS far too much time spent by the BSes on this board in analyzing (ie blaming and judging - ie disrespectful judgements) their WS instead of taking a very hard look at themselves </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can only assume you are reffering to me as I am the main one really keeping the discussion alive? If I am mistaken please advise. I find it a little odd if you are talking about me in that until the last post I made I have said very little about my wife. I have discussed certian aspects of what Chaz has said. Which the main theme in the beginning was that if a WS was going to have an affair, and that the marriage is a non deterrant in the WS thinking, then the WS should divorce the potential BS first. Before they do this terrible thing to them.

Speaking only for myself, as a BS. I could not have divorced my wife. It took around 18 months before I was strong enough to finally even consider that it was an option. Yes I talked about it, but I could not. I begged God for the strength.

I couldn't do it, I was too weak. So, all I am arguing really is that the WS should not do this to their mate. They should get divorced if they are going to continue or even if they are going to start an affair in the first place.

I realize I am in the minority on this subject. Thats ok. I only know what I desire
if this were to happen again.

Most affairs do NOT happen because of problems in the marriage. I think there is very little correlation between the state of the marriage and affairs - there are many, many, marriages that are very high conflict or in other ways "horrible," but in which there are no affairs. There are, in turn, many cases where the WS fully admits that his spouse was doing everything she could to "meet his needs." Affairs that occur as a result of depression, which is, I believe, most of them, do NOT occur as a result of problems in the marriage. As in WAT's wife's case, many affairs occur after a triggering event, for instance a tragedy such as the loss of a child - something like 90% of marriages where a child dies end within a few years.

Frank Pittman ("Private Lies") has said that affairs occur because of problems in the relationship of the WS with his father, and although that may be an oversimplification, I think there is a lot of truth in that. People who have a strong sense of self do not have affairs. When a person has an affair that is "out of character" (as opposed to those who do so out of a sense of "entitlement"), he or she is not merely betraying the spouse - more importantly, he or she is betraying him or herself.

JD, no actually I wasn't talking about you. If I was, I'd have named you personally simply because I tend to be pretty direct (blunt) that way.

Yes, I agree, that if a WS wants to start a new relationship, they should get a divorce first and THEN move on.

But it's not a perfect world. Sometimes, as was the case with my formerly-wayward-turned-devoted-and-attentive husband, the WS is beaten down and exhausted emotionally themselves. As someone said over in the "Why do people CHEAT" thread (which has become a WS bash fest) its because the OP makes the WS feel good about themselves. The WS feels like crap. The OP makes them feel better. Is it any wonder that suddenly a decision is made that the OP must be the cure for all the WS ills? It isn't about the OP being a slut, or the WS being overcome with lust. It is selfishness that ALLOWS the decision to occur. But it is not what causes it either. In my situation, (and I am not just guessing or judging or analyzing, I'm repeating my understanding after 18 months of recovery and many long honest and open talks about this with my husband) my husband was exhausted, didn't know how to fix the mess we were in, and I was making the situation worse with my attempts to fix. I wasn't a likeable person, and not only was I not filling his needs, I was trying to force him into being a "good husband" with self-demands, angry outbursts and very disrespectful judgements. I made him feel like a complete and utter failure - a pathetic excuse for a man. Along came a beautiful woman who made him feel admired, needed and worthwile. And in kicked the selfishness and the addiction of feeling high with the silliness of infatuation.

And to re-address your point about why not get a divorce first....I think that in many cases, the WS doesn't take divorce lightly either. My husband told himself repeatedly that he had made vows and children and he had to stay and do the honorable thing. When the OW came around however, he began to believe that maybe he could be happy again...and THATS when he decided he could find the strength to leave the marriage.

Countless affair books have said that an unhappy spouse usually doesn't get the courage to leave until they've got someone else to go with. That's 100% accurate in my situation.

It's not fair or not right, its just the way human beings ARE. And the BS has to start dealing with what IS, instead of complaining that its not something else.

Now, in all fairness, he HAD treated me like crap over the years. I was just as exhausted, hurt and overwhelmed, and didn't know what the answers were. We'll never know, but I was just as vulnerable for an affair, he just had the opportunity first - I honestly can not say that I would not have done the same thing. I hope that I would not have.

I spent too much time focused on figuring out what was wrong with HIM instead of what was wrong with me.

Even now, with all these lessons learned under both of our belts, we've both discovered that the fastest way to get our own ENs met is to look at ourselves and figure out what we are not giving in the relationship.

The fastest way to get my husband to meet my needs is to revisit my recent behavior and brush up on my own actions. Within a day or two, my husband is back to making efforts to meet my needs also.

But we didn't get to this point without my having to admit that maybe I had contributed alot of damage to our marriage - not intentionally - but that didn't change the devastating effect.

I could have chosen to be remain a victim. I could have chosen to sit around and wring my hands and say: Look how mean and selfish he is! I could have put myself way up high on a pillar of self-righteous victimization and watched in pity as my husband "self-destructed".

What I had to do was climb down off the pillar of victimhood and rightness and to stand next to my husband and take responsibility for my own actions.

A BS who "didn't see it coming" probably has even more work to do. There are situations, (WAT, Resilient, and Zorweb) that come to mind, where there are much deeper issues than the BS meeting needs.

A BS who didn't see it coming was probably getting most of their basic needs met, more or less. I figured out a long time ago that there were needs that my husband met that had nothing to do with our relationship - so my lovebank was draining, just not as quickly. Sometimes the WS doesn't tell their spouse that they are unhappy, but I think in many cases they DO - but their feelings are discounted by the BS. I've seen it happen repeatedly - I can't tell you how many girlfriends I've had coffee with while listening to them complain about their husbands - and have been completely appalled at how callous and uncaring about their spouse's feelings they can be.

Affairs waiting to happen in many of these situations, sad to say....

So no JD I wasn't point at you in this thread. I'm just speaking up to support Chaz, I've backed away from posting in the last few weeks partly because of a busy life, but partly because he's right, the tone around here has become more about whining about the WS than it is about looking at what the BS can change about themselves in a good Plan A.

BrambleRose - this is a first for me to agree. You know you hit a trigger, when you stated that the BS is trying to figure the WS out and what is wrong with the WS. That is what I have been doing. Myself, being the BS, I have tried to express to my husband that his affair really hurt. We were distanced before the affair, emotional needs were not being met. I felt he was unthoughtful to me. We didn't sleep together, cause of issues. He went on the internet and found someone that met his emotional needs. He felt wanted, needed, and cared for. Not saying that he is right, but the issue of not getting needs met could of been explained before the affair. We didn't talk much, just what needed to be said.

Part of what I see in this thread is that both need to work on the marriage. Yes, the BS complains, whines, and cries. The WS does not know how painful the affair affects the heart of the BS. So the BS & WS can't talk about issues. The pain is so severe, on both parts. But to talk about the pain to each other is not done. Communication has become difficult, there is so much pain. Therefore, more lashing, manipulation is done to sort of feel revenge for the pain the other has caused. A vicous circle of unthoughtfulness.

Knowing that I need to look into myself, hurts. I know that there were many issues directed at my husband, that I needed to mend before the affair. And he towards myself needed to be mended in a caring manner. Basically, I see that I needed counseling for myself, not us, long ago. I have been rejected most of my growing up. And to have the rejection of my husband has caused my heart to bleed till the feeling of not liviing is strong.

The WS sees his spouse as a unit, in a different vision. The oneness is not there. He still remembers the OP as having all their needs met. Which was an enlightnment, but in reality was not real life. Yes, the WS hurts, and the hurt may be of different degrees, but they hurt equally. The WS has to carry the affair with them their whole life. Knowing that they failed, and what they have caused to their family and spouse.

The unfairness, is caused by one person. SATAN!!!

Yes, I am the spouse of a WS, I am so sorry for the deteriation of the marriage, and now reading your thread, BrambleRose, it is hitting home. I believe, that both of us love each other, and care for each other very much. Seems that is what you are saying, but the revenge, hurtfulness is interfering and causing more damage. Therefore, one cannot get beyond the wall of hurt.

This is a good thread, and has opened up many issues of both WS & BS.

Is it possible to e-mail you? My e-mail is Tazziblack@hotmail.com

I talked with snl about this thread. He read the thread and sent me this email. I am pasting it here from an e-mail he sent me.

snl...I am going to ask my w (cry2much aka thinker) if she will communicate my feelings about a post mentioning my former presence on MB, which I sent her by email to read. If she does so, this is it.

So, SNL has become synonomous with asking unpopular questions? I still read some, mostly just discussion posts, or follow stories of a few, who would have thought chaz would be equated with snl. A full range of discussion isn't valued here, my "crime" simply being asking the hard questions about marriage (well ok, I did sometimes say one should leave abusive, neglectful, misfitted ones, but so so many others, even today, and I quit after being "warned"). How quickly the character assasination starts when someones ox is gored (in this case that ws fit in tidy neat packages of culpability for marital failure). Little surprise that dave took my name in vain (someday maybe you will let go of that bitterness dave, it is gonna kill you, your w treated you poorly for sure, but her issues with you were very real reading between the lines of your own postings, you as chaz is suggesting generally for many bs, played a significant role in your marital failure, and it started long before the tradgedy of your son and your w subsequent affair). I too (as a ws) do not condone affairs, nor do I blame my bs.

The affair was my "choice" (what a stupid word, like someone goes out and says, oh gee, think I will have an affair today), but it was also the complex behavioural outcome of years of dysfunctional marriage, and I was VERY vocal about my issues, which went totally ignored. And post-affair, my pointing out those issues and my unwillingness to just roll over and bare my belly in submission without a whole lot of evidence anything had really changed (and it hadn't as subsequent events made clear) does not make me an evil, immoral, dishonest person. If I could do it over again, I would have "chosen" differently, that is how life (and experience) works. One of us should have ended the marriage first, properly by filing for divorce (which my w asked for many times, and I stubbornly refused thinking miserable or not, one could never divorce). So now we divorce anyways, but I get to be labeled a wandering (loser) spouse and subjected to all the slings and arrows of my "moral" bs bretheren, and my w is the "victim"... yeah right, but there it is nothing I can do will ever change that...oh, unless of course I turn my life over to the bs mindset, and if I pass muster, then I can be redeemed, but only then. You know it is possible to realize you have taken actions which in hindsight you would not (that can include getting married in the first place as well as relationship choices outside a marriage, all "choices" are on the table in hindsight). That does not mean you have lost your right to self-determination.

When a marriage goes into crisis (for whatever reason) both parties are empowered to make whatever choices they want re how to proceed (including ending it), and both parties should also reflect on their own behaviour and how it contributed to the failure, and what they want to change (or not change) in determining how to proceed. Who had the "affair" is pretty much irrelevant, cause blame plays no role in successful relationships, and nobody "owes" anyone anything, healthy relationships don't work that way, they must be freely chosen. I do agree with chaz, there is a definite bias and bs mindset that they are the "aggrieved" party, and bear little if any responsibilty (token posturing notwithstanding) for the marital failure of which the affair is but a sympton, not a cause. That mindset interferes with any healthy resolution of this conflict. Whether it is hostility, or woe is me, it is still a manipulative effort to influence the behavioural choices of the ws. (if I got that wrong chaz, my apologies). Fact is, and it is a fundamental harley position, all, everyone, could behave in an unfaithful manner...actually I would not be surprised to find everyone has allready behaved thusly if we define affair as any focus outside the marriage (the rest is just arguing over the details). IMO I have come to believe that trying to define and label affairs and ws/bs is a pointless exercise (meaning it accomplishes nothing of value), what is important is figuring out what happened, why it happened, and what is the most healthy response (which necessarily must include divorce). It is a personal decision, there is no "right" answer anyone else can tell an individual...but we can say with pretty good accuracy, an atmosphere of blame (how could you), or demands (like remorse, apologies, etc.), or disrespectful judgements (you immoral bas****) probably are not going to encourage a ws much (and rightly so, the bs has revealed themself as unsafe, and validated the marriage should not continue). Likewise a ws who blames the bs, or continues not to protect the bs has revealed they are not safe either (and are not marriage material)....not so much because of the affair, but because of their behaviour after the affair. Likewise the behaviour of both ( ws and bs) before the affair killed the marriage too, regardless of marriage license.

Surely no one here thinks marriage is about a piece of paper, it is about the emotional, psychological reality of 2 people...many marriages are dead (in terms of intimacy, emotional nurturing, safety) as we speak, are only co-habitations, they will experience affairs, but they are allready dead. It could be because of the ws, but could equally be because of the bs, or both in equal degree. IMO a bs has just as much responsibility to end (put into cirisis) the eventual ws before the affair occurs, claiming ingnorance (or vows) is no defense...these things are always forseeable if you look hard enough (although usually you don't have to look all that hard to realize a marriage is off the rails)...ignoring that is not an option (there will be very undesireable consequences...always). If a bs is not happy, and the marriage is significantly dysfunctional, why don't they file for divorce before someone (and maybe themself) because an affair statistic? Anyways having read hundreds of "case" histories, as well as having direct experience (as the ws) the only useful conclusion I can reach is that assigning labels and assessing blame doesn't help at all. The only real issue is do both people want to remain married under the present circumstances...and what are ones boundaries and what action will you take if those boundaries are exceeded. Marriage builders is not very good with that (tough love dobson, and get real mcgraw offer better tools)...but that applies to BOTH parties equally ws and bs. There are many marital behaviours just as bad (meaning marriage busting) as an affair (and many that are worse) and it is quite possible a bs may be guilty of such behaviours.

Well, I do miss participating in efforts to understand the psychology of marriage, and I do think for some of us, such discussion is very important to figuring out ourselves and what to do, and would contribute on occassion (since so many freely helped me in this effort when I needed it), but far as I know the powers that me still consider me persona non grata (well, haven't tried to log in in awhile, but I doubt my login has been restored). Odd since I followed all the rules of posting, and was always civil, but certain individuals (isn't that always the case) complained my "thoughts" were disturbing to them. Yet people still tell others to leave the bum, question MB tactics, and discuss marital philosphy, go figure....guess my "crime" was being too articulate and making people think too much about the whys and wherefores, that tends to disturb people, so be careful chaz et al. you may be "asked" to leave. I spent too much time here anyways I suppose, makes more sense to write a book about this stuff. Those who note this is a private site are correct, but it is also a commercial site to promote MB materials, awareness, and counselling services. I really don't see where being intellectually honest (not censoring ideas) is a threat to that, and we do have a societal expectation re discrimination if you choose to act in the public arena...to that end, this is not a club (or private in that sense at all), it is a public site open to all comers who follow the rules, and I followed them as well as anyone, as well as support many MB principles (heck radical honest saved my life, and not love busting, as well as rules of protection are bedrocks for successful relationships of all kinds). Clerarly all the boards allow a wide range of discussion provided one is promoting marriage. I believe in marriage, healthy marriage, and never advocated anything different, as well as agree with rejecting affair based behaviour as a choice. But you cannot promote healthy marriage by ignoring unhealthy marriage and leaveing those in such circumstances without support, or the means to assess whether they should look to divorce as a necessary boundary for this point in their life.

I am curious about one thing though chaz, do you consider being equated to me an insult?

If anyone cares to send me any hatemail or other comments feel free MB_discussion@yahoo.com