Thank YOU for your "thank you".

Please know this .... in one week, it will be 7 years since our d-day.

My "insights" were waaaaay after d-day. I struggled , dragging my anchor long after I recognized my dilemma.

Your journey and your wounds are still fresh.

Be kind to yourself.

Pepper

pepperband,
thank you for taking the time to post dierctly to me. as you can tell in my signature, things are indeed still fresh. it has been 9 months since d-day, and my h says he is ready to end the a, but it still has not been done. i question his motives and commitment, but i will be patient and kind still. i search everywhere for answers and guidance and inspiration. i have read many of your posts and appreciate your thoughtfulness and of course your sense of humour!
i know this is a long journey, and am prepared to go the distance, whatever it takes.
your hospitality and insight are well received.
thanks again.

ps.. as an aside i am curious as to your choice of name... with respect to anonimity, do you care to explain your choice????

I am a Beatles fan ... and Sgt. Pepper's is my favorite album of theirs. (I used to say it is their "best" album .... but that remark initiated a lengthy debate on a different site about the merits of that album vs other albums ... particularly Rubber Soul).

I am old enough to have seen The Beatles when I was 15 years old .... I was screaming and going nutz.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

What does you name mean to you????

Maplesirup --

If I may intrude (he asks politely)...

Just wanted to say how much I admire your attitude: "i know this is a long journey, and am prepared to go the distance, whatever it takes." Seems as though you've got what it takes to have this thing come out right in the end.

Yes, everything is still very fresh and raw and painful for you. I'm encouraged that H says he's ready to end the A, but since it's not yet been ended, I think you're right to question his recommitment. After all, how long does it take?

I'm thankful that you're being "patient and kind" (and that may be exactly what's needed, certainly for you), but I think that once the cards are on the table, the WS needs to move rapidly and decisively so that the BS (you) is reassured, trust can begin to be restored, and stability and equilibrium can start to reenter the picture. I'm puzzled by his hesitation; why wouldn't he want to get your relationship back on track as quickly and solidly as possible? What's he waiting for?

Sorry, this started out as a note of affirmation and encouragement and has turned into somewhat of a commentary and questioning message. So, I guess now I'm on board (if that's permissible). I still feel that you've got a good hold on your part of this, and that's all you or anyone can ask of yourself.

Ammon

i could have guessed you were a beatles fan... i guess i was intrigued and was looking for something "deeper" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> hehe

my name on the affairs-help forum is hopeful.now which was chosen because i am an eternal optimist.. and as i read all those sad heart wrenching names of other posters.. i didnt want to be known as crazyinsanecheatedonlady forever... ya know?

here, i was feeling a little more devious and frisky, and being a canadian and sweet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> i went for a sugar coated name.
hehe... maybe i am crazyinsanecheatedady anyway!!!!

cheers pepper! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dec 14 is the NC date??? Doesn't that mean the A is over??

Confused American, Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ahhhhhh... my new friends... all aboard the maplesirup train. everyone welcome, and sorry to have confused you! not my intention at all, but since you asked....

i finally had had enough of the whole affair last saturday, dec 21. i told my h that i need some time away. although i had already taken a two week holiday away from him to give him some space, and get myself re-centred, i still found our marriage stalled. we had hashed out all our "complaints" and "problems" and what we wanted and need in a spouse. nothing seemed to be going anywhere, and it had been a month since we had even talked about the affair or our future.

so i got up the courage to speak to him one last time, ask him to give me and our marriage one more try, and to have faith in me that we could work this out. he was still "scared" he said, that the marriage would become the same old thing. despite everything, he wouldnt cut ties with his ow, but for the most part maintained that there was nothing to end. we went in circles for three hours.

in the end he just got defensive, closed the conversation without another thought and proceeded to ignore me. (about 1 am now) so i mustered the courage to do what i had to do. i laid beside him in bed and told him i had to move out. i cried and cried. i said things the best way i could and i think i managed to convey that i still love him. he laid there, no movement, no response, no words of comfort. after half an hour, i moved to the couch and slept there for the night.... left quietly the next morning for work.

he wrote me an email, and negotiating resumed. i practised my loving open-minded conversing techniques, but would not budge on one issue... i needed to have closure on the affair in form of a letter to ow that i witness and see sent.

after lengthy emails, he agreed. i gave him a week to do such, expecting to see it today.

we had a wonderful passionate reconcilition that night, but as to be expected with his thoughts of the letter, he has been distant and cool this week. i will see what tonight will bring.

but i think the problem lies in the whole "fog" issue. i don't think he really has any clue to how he has hurt me. there have been no grand displays of affection, no real form of remorse or sorrow, and the fact that he feels that there is nothing to end baffles me to ne end. it has been about 3 weeks since they last emailed or spoke, to my knowledge.

whew... well, i had better get to work, but i thought i would reply. i will return later. your support and curiosity is much appreciated.

cheerios

Hey there ... sounds as if you are holding yourself up with dignity and grace.

Here's just one thing I suggest you try ... focus less on H and more on yourself.

Hair styled? Need highlights? Join an exercise class? Kickboxing? Take an interesting art class? Poetry readings at the cool bookstore? Get colored contacts?

Change something about yourself .... step away from the *you* that has become routine ... and jazz yourself up. Live with pizazz ... and let your inner self shine and glow.

Mix it up. Become a bit mysterious. Stray from what you are well-known as ... into exciting territory.

It will be your H's loss if he does not grow along with you.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ December 22, 2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

pepper at al,
thanks for the advice ... been there.. doing it!!!! hehe.... its a ride!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

well.. the day came and went and no nc letter as i somewhat expected... i was trying to be optomistic and give him the benefit of the doubt... but when i asked him for it tonight he acted like he had no idea what i was talking about...

ugh

ugh

ugh

any suggestions???? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I am going to suggest a really atypical book for you to read .... it has *nada* to do with affairs.

The title of said book:

The Sweet Potato Queen's Book Of Love ... author's name is Jill Browne.

It's a *laughsohardyou'llpeeinyourpants* book!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My suggestion is this: You take care of your emotional well-being for awhile longer. Your H is in withdrawl. Try not to personalize his actions right now.

You need a good laugh!

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

pepperband,
thanks for your kind words and book suggestion. i love to laugh, and i love to read, so this combination sounds outstanding.

i have been pondering how i cannot personalize his actions right now. i know its a fog thing, but where do my boundaries kick in? i told him i would only stay one that one condition, and he agreed. he broke his promise and has no intention of carrying through that i have seen. no apology, no remorse. oh, what to do....

i know that i am especially toucht because of christmas, and because i am ill too... but i feel such despair.

thanks for listening

sorry about that last post.

pity party over.

i need to practice more patience, kindness, love.
to myself as well as h.

pass the tylenol with codeine please.hehe.
oh what a night!

cheers!

I don't think a pity party is all that bad .... but one has to leave the party eventually.

Believe me, as a wife of an alcoholic, I've done my share of drawing a boundary and then moving it, because H crossed the boundary and I was too unsure of my convictions to hold my ground.

It takes awhile to find your way.

Look at your actions and ask yourself if you are someone you respect .... that's a pretty good signpost. If you lose respect for yourself because of your decision to allow H to ignore a boundary just a bit longer ... then you know it's no longer about "him" ... but about Maple.

Happy Canadian Christmas!

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Maple,

Back last March after d-day for me I did as Pepper suggested. I got a very different haircut and,highlights (got rid of the gray).

My thought was I feel so different inside - I wanted to see something different in the mirror. I also did a huge cleaning out of closets and throwing stuff out. Huge energy high and I made the most of it. THAT felt really good. I felt better and it unsettled H a little bit. Good & Good.

Then the other thing I did was decide to wear black. Not in mourning; but in rememberance. It's my way of reminding me to not fall into old habits and patterns that I contributed to create the state of the marriage that allowed an affair. This part is great because clothing purchases are easy now! H doesn't know about the black clothes part; all the better. It's my message to myself.

Funny I feel empowered as a result of these simple decisions. It reminds me that life is a series of choices. Big & little. If I don't like what's happening - I can simply choose again, something different. Knowing you have choices is hugely empowering!!! Blessings, CSue

pepper and csue,
thank you for your kind words and encouragement.
putting the whole r thing on the back burner for a few days.... gotta get through xmas methinks! so many things to rethink, rework, analyze and change! babystep #1:put a smile on and make my inlaws happy by enjoying xmas with them #2: try and lay the love on h without hurting myself too much #3:make another babystep list <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

hahahahappy holidays and merry christmas!
cheers,
i will be back! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
maplesirup

just wondering... should i force this issue of no conact and ending the affair? or should i just wait and see????
any advice?

well,
i tried talking again last night.
i told him how crappy it makes me feel that everything else seems more important than wriy
ting and sending the nc letter. its been almost two weeks since he promised to do it. he came up with some good excuses like being mad at me for three days cause we never have any money. we have always had difficulty on this issue: security of money is a high priority for him. i have always handled the finances and have pleaded with him to take it over sice it is so important to him and he has a financial background that far exceeds my abilities. needless to say, i am still in charge of finances. i am not bad at it by any means. all the bills are always paid, but we dont have a savings and we both spend money rather generously till its gone- usually a few days before payday. then, suddenly i realise----WE ARENT TALKING ABOUT THE AFFAIR ANYMORE----i say hey, you changed the subject , when are you going to write that letter? i dunno. in a week? in a month ? in a year? i dunno. have you thought about it all, i say??? yes. what have you thought? i dunno,i guess i just thought more about how i feel about writing it . Oh, and how do you feel about writing it? i dunno......
i think its pretty clear that no thought at all has been put into this. and he once again tried to make me feel like crap and blame me for his feelings.i have no idea what to do. i finally just said to him last night that maybe we just shouldnt be married anymore. he said nothing. but this morning he was sweet and nice and laughing, making conversation and cracking jokes.i cant stand it anymore.

does anyone have any suggestions?
i have run out.

ugh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ December 27, 2002, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: maplesirup ]</small>

Maple,

Some rambling thoughts.

I confess to not following your story from the start...What I gather is that he has decided to end the affair and at one point he agreed to a no contact letter and now he is waffling...

In thinking this through I may digress from some of the marriagebuilding principles not out of disrepect but in a lets look a little differently at this...

You had a D-day....he wants to end it...
the question is can he...is she work related so that some contact at this time is unavoidable...
the other question is...has he...

My fear for you is that you get so focused on this no contact letter..that you take on the responsibility of him writing it...giving it etc..and it is his responsibility to end it...

How i understand it should work is that the WS wants to end the affair...and wants a NC letter as well...to assist him and you in focusing only on the eachother....

This has great power to backfire in some ways....
one way that it becomes hurtful is that he writes the letter...but doesn't mean it....then it becomes as valuable as the paper written on...

If he is not enthuseastic about it...it can become something that brings the two of them more contact...more ammo to them dialoging as they pick the letter apart....and he uses YOU as the catalyst....
"My wife made me write this...My wife helped me write this....my wife is controling me again/still/ and forcing me to write this...etc...
I have seen time and time again on different sites an OW getting a NC letter which they are told the wife made me do it...and or which they just don't believe because they believe the MM is just "forced" into this....

NC letters work when and only when the person writing it MEANS it...

Now not writing a NC letter is not direct proof of the WS not wanting to end contact...you want to see OW who really believe no contact has come...It's the ones where contact just ends....
nothing from the ws..not a pip not a squeak...now that is really no contact...the true action of no contact...is the reality of no contact....

So what I am getting at..is that if you two get stagnated in a power struggle over a NC letter...it can cause damage...so it is my opinion that while NO CONTACT is not negotiable...the way to obtain no contact might be in certain cases...

Has he stopped contact...?
From your signature line you note this was a five year affair...Where were they in the life of the affair when you discovered...statistically most affairs die there own (sometimes slow) death...with out the spouse doing anything...and sometimes never even knowing....He obviously didn't/doesn't want to leave you...he has had five years to do so....I am asking if the affair was already going down the crapper when you found out...and was it ending somewhat even without discovery....
Where they "were" in all of this may also hold some insight into whether or not a No Contact letter holds much meaning/value....to your WS...to you it is hope..to him it may not be of value if the affair was already dieing out....and he has already pretty much ended it...

You have every right to make it clear to him that continued contact is unacceptable to you...as it is the greatest form of disrepect...and you will not accept continued contact in your life...

I would tell your husband while "I dunno" is an acceptable answer to 'dear what would you like for dinner"..that it is NOT an acceptable answer to important questions about ending contact....Without anger/emotion (yeah that's easy huh!?) I would tell your husband that each and every time that he answers with "I dunno"...what he is really saying and what you hear is..."Maplesirup I don't value you nor respect you" tell him that's what he is saying with I dunno each and everytime it flops out of his mouth....AND if that is not the case then he darn well better change Idunno to another answer...which shows value and respect...even when disagreeing or in conflict....
And when he tells you idunno to an important question tell him what you "hear" him say...and walk away....don't power struggle badger etc...just end it and walk away...

Tell him that as long as you hear Idunno you will know that he has NO intention of working on this....and he better think long and hard over that thought...as you will then have to start basing your life and decisions on what you can and can not tolerate in your life....
Idunno = i don't value you or respect you....

The other thought I have about if there is continued contact...my thoughts on this is that you can't control him...but make it clear...that each and every time he contacts her...while claiming to want to be with you...that he sells a piece of his soul....that it all does and will come back to him...

Set your boundaries...don't power struggle...make it clear to him what you will and will not accept in your life...think about what NC really means...and revisit the value of a NC letter for your own sanity and safety...

Not saying the letter is bad...but if it means nothing to him...then that's the issue..not the letter itself...also think about having him write the letter but not necessarily sending it...what you may really be looking here for is a glimpse into how he feels and views all this...and how he has come to believe in the value of you and him together again....

best of luck
ARK

thankyou arc^^ for your thoughtful reply.

a few notes for clarification:
ow is 3000 miles away, so no phisical contact since march 2002. most of their interaction is email and conversation based, multiple times a day daily. she is not work related. they met in a chat room.

i admit to becoming a little focussed on this letter. he refused to write it for a long time (not that i was demanding it, but he new nc was the onlt way i would stay in this m) so after 9 months of trying to show him that its safe to come back to me, that i love him, that i know some of his en's better now and am prepared to work on myself (as i have been working on me for 9 months now)i was hoping that he might see a w to love again. he hadnt done all those crazy things i read ws do... there have been no profound apologies, no great shows of love, no admitting his faults, or exploring how he could meet my en's, no mc, no little poems, ecards, gifts, (all the things i witnessed he did for ow.... things he always said "i'm not that kind of guy" to) finally i got to point where enough was enough. he was having us both. i knew there would be withdrawal from ow, even a backlash at me etc. but i was willing to help him through it. so i told him i was moving out. i told him the only way i would come home was if he wrote a nc letter... to this he replied there was nothing to end, they hadnt talked in a couple weeks. i said then it will do no harm, but reinforce to me that you both know its really over and you both respect my boundary. after much debate over its ncessity, he agreed.

i know it has to be from his heart. if they really had said goodbye and it was over, this should have been a very easy thing for him to do... his feelings now a month later should be starting to wane. but again, no letter, no sign of a letter. i am still waiting for him to offer me full access to his computer and email. he is a computer wiz, and also has an office computer, so i know he could hide things if he really wanted to. but even so, passcodes to email accounts and checking his folders for pics of her should given to me out of respect.

i have rambled off, i dont know what to do anymore. i still am living with a fencesitter i guess.