I think you may want to address your comments to me here, instead of on C2M's thread.

What else would you like to say to me?

I am listening.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Nellie ....

My son is bipolar. He is 16. He is also ADHD. He was born addicted to heroin. He is adopted. He was abandoned by his parents. He suffered serious dental decay as an infant due to bottles filled with applejuice at bedtime.

Should I lower the bar for him? Would that make it easier for him to survive once he leaves this family and tries to make it on his own?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Nellie ... I would like to have a conversation with you please.

Sorry, I didn't see this thread earlier.

I'm not quite sure what this thread has to do with c2m's pain, but -

I have a child with motor and language delays. Should I have signed her up to play soccer with "regualr" kids when she was five? I don't think so -but she is very happy playing soccer on her special needs team.

One's expectations should be based on the individual's capabilities and interests, not on what someone defines as "normal."

I am asking you to share with me what your thoughts are about what I posted to C2M.

I could not tell if your major objection was to my philosophical point of view or to my approach.

I am interested in hearing what you have to say to me.

Thanks.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Both, actually.

I have a problem with people "accusing" victims of being victims - there is nothing shameful about being a victim. I can not even imagine the depth of c2m's physical pain as well, and I think trivializing that is callous.

I realize that you were also betrayed, but I am not sure you can identify with the pain of abandonment. As someone whose H betrayed and deserted our family almost 4 years ago, I can say that the pain of the betrayal was NOTHING compared to the ongoing pain of the abandonment of our children and myself.

How does one accuse someone of being a victim? Isn't it self-evident in their own behaviour? The point is victimhood is a decision, a perception, a way of life. There are no victims, there is only life, we are all "victims", therefore no one is a victim, is a meaningless concept. There is only circumstance and response. If we assign victimhood to people as reason for their self-defeating behaviour then no one should have survived the nazi death camps, yet thousands of "victims" never gave up, and went on to build rich rewarding lives, after far greater "victimization" than anyone on this board can even imagine. They did not ask for special consideration, they did not go around bemoaning their circumstance, they grasped life and moved ahead. That is what this is all about nellie, attitude, focus. You are either a victim, or you look at life, everything in life, as an opportunity. Research has shown us a negative attitude is not healthy, and creates its own reality, likewise a positive attitude the opposite. Therefore the correct support for someone stuck in self-pity and victimhood, is too encourage them to reject it. That means you cannot validate the victimhood, not to be confused with offering a shoulder to cry on, or a helping hand up.

Those posters who feed c2m victimhood do her more harm than good, they help her stay stuck, that is what I hear pepperband saying, and I agree. I too have lurked here for some time, and watched this woman wallow in self-pity, ignoring those who try to help her, and gravitating to those who validate her victim status. This has been going on for over 1 year (maybe more for all I know), it is not doing her any good at all, and apparently a lot of harm. You also mentioned the great pain of abandonment. This poster was not abandoned, her H posted her quite a bit, and seemed actively involved in trying to find some kind of common ground with her. By her own admission in even these recent posts, he is supporting the family, interacting with the children, helping with her medical situation, and so forth, how does that constitute abandonment? They apparently have a lot of conflict throughout the marriage, I suppose that is why they are divorcing, but I don't see any abanbonment at all. I think maybe you are projecting your own circumstances on someone else. That may help you, but is not a good thing for c2m.

I agree that chronic pain is a tough way to go, but the patient understanding that, and having the appropriate medication should help minimize the depressive effects. She can't just talk herself out of the pain obviously, but she can realize it is temporary, and will improve, and try to work positively on her physical recovery, and not let it become the focus of her emotional recovery.

<small>[ December 30, 2002, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

And another thing (to jump right in here)...

C2M is SUICIDAL, and needs to get REAL HELP, not cyber help. I have written Steve Harley about this. These boards are not equipped to handle REAL life-threatening issues like these, in my opinion.

I liked what Pepperband wrote... although I completely understand what Nellie is saying too.

But I'll tell you -- there's BIG difference between a strong-willed woman with self-esteem who CHOOSES to not move on (Nellie) and a woman who is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damaged and CANNOT move on (C2M)... just my opinion - take it for what it's worth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by new_beginning:
<strong>

But I'll tell you -- there's BIG difference between a strong-willed woman with self-esteem who CHOOSES to not move on (Nellie) and a woman who is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damaged and CANNOT move on (C2M)... just my opinion - take it for what it's worth.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">as always Sheryl you are so very wise.

I could eaily be C2M, my self esteem has always been low, however I hope I am not the cryie, whinny, poster I was 2 yrs ago. But that is the point no matter how bad the sitituation there comes a time you have to move on & stop feeling sorry for yourself, get help, change meds, get more thearpy, do something, anything

and Nellie, I'm not quite 50 but close, I was the total SAHM, no job, no experince, I haven't even worked enough to draw Social Security

Nellie ... to trivialize someone's pain I would be saying what exactly?

I am not clear what words I wrote that were objectionable to you.

Thanks for your reply.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Can I jump in too?

The posts from LurkingAbout and new beginning are why I originally asked Pepperband to advise me about my posts to C2M. What do you both think about my posts to her--beneficial or harmful?

It never dawned on me to write SH--good idea new beginning!

I realized that with this being the holidays, boards such as this might be the only resource that some people have for a few days until drs are back in their offices. We all know that suicide statistics are higher during the holidays. I guess I figured that it was better to play it safe and post for a few days just in case. I still don't know if it's been beneficial or harmful--I guess time will tell.

Nellie1, I don't think anyone was trivializing C2M's pain, just trying to encourage her that there are better ways to deal with it that will bring her better results in her life. I think that is the responsible thing for us to do, especially those of us who know from experience.

I will not respond to LurkingAbout, as I am even more sure now than I was before that he is really SNL. That comment about how c2m has supposedly said that he is supporting the family is laughable - his lack of financial support is one of her major complaints.

Pepperband,

It was more that you completely ignored her physical pain, while accusing her of acting like a "victim."

I also am worried about c2m, and I agree with Sheryl that real-life help is necessary. I also think that better medical care for her physical pain is imperative, and wonder about possible side effects and interactions among her medications.

I do not think that anyone really "moves on." The effect of betrayal and desertion is something you carry with you forever, influencing all future behavior and relationships.

I have just now written Steve Harley again, and also "blown the whistle" (reported to the Mod's) a particular post she made where she says she wants to die.

This upsets me more than I can properly articulate.

YetAgain, I think you've done fine... it's not that... it just seems to me that this thing is so far beyond what can be offered by lay people... heck, even PROFESSIONALS, over the INTERNET. She needs a REAL LIVE PERSON to talk with... before she actually DOES do something to harm herself.

I agree about it being the holidays, but suicide hotlines are open. That would be FAR more appropriate, I would think.

You have a good heart YetAgain!

This is where an internet forum falls short, plain and simple. It's assumed that people who post here are genuine and mentally healthy (despite the infidelity which makes you "insane" for a bit) -- I think we've all seen that isn't always the case.

I think the best thing any of us can do is to lead this woman to GET HELP... not that she'll heed the advice... but for our own well-being (to know we've done all we can)... and maybe *someone* will get to her.

Oh and Nellie, if Lurking About is SNL, the writing has changed completely. I don't think so. But hey, I could be wrong, I often am.

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>

DEAR NELLIE ....

I also choose to ignore LA's post .... because ... MY purpose on this thread is NOT to discuss C2M ... but myself!

Nellie, you had the integrity to offer me criticism and I see that as a good thing! I am being given a gift by you ... a gift of a learning opportunity ... to learn something about myself. I am open to whatever you have to say. I am not argueing my philosophy vs yours ... but rather am trying to better understand what you found objectionable (because it is not exactly clear to me) so I can do a personal inventory and spiritual assessment.

I am still not clear which EXACT words or phrasing you found objectionable enough to write, "That is one of the most callous and cruel responses I have ever read on this board." I never said she was "acting like a victim" ... but "speaking as a victim" .... these phrases are very different (to me) ..... is this the phrasing you were refering to? If not ... PLEASE help me figure out which EXACT words I wrote that were callous and cruel ... and put those exact words in quotes so I will better be able to take inventory.

I find that people such as yourself, someone who has the guts to call me on my defects .... VERY HELPFUL.

Thanks again.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Excuse me??????? Who in the h*** do you think you are? I don't care if you respond to my post or not, it was for c2m benefit, not yours. Looks like you are just trying to divert attention from your own questionable, and in my opinion hurtful advice (to c2m). Apparently you don't like people disagreeing with you, first pepperband, now me. So I see, easier to accuse anyone disagreeing with you of something, than change your mind. Sheesh, some people. I agree sheryl, just because someone tries to reason about stuff, does not make them SNL (or some other disparaging person du jour). I did find some of his stuff makes sense, but I think most rational thinking people probably do. Nellie seems to have issues of her own, some posters will do anything to justify there projecting on to others... But maybe this is an opportunity, I can go tell my H our problems are solved, I am really a man and can't remain married to him, gee nellie thanks ever so much.

In the meantime let's try and give c2m real help, not push our own agendas on her.

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

Lurking ... PLEASE take this to a new thread ...I am trying to get Nellie to help me ... and your sidebar is distracting.

I want Nellie to talk to me.... about me!

Thanks

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Is ok, I am done, she just ruffled my feathers and I thought she need to be set straight so as to not interfere with the help to c2m. Frankly I have no intention of talking to her again at any time, and should not have let her get under my skin this time. I can usually just ignore aggressive people, but it is harder when they make personal attacks, sorry for the diversion, lurker has left the building <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Lurking About made some exceptionally good points that are simply too good to be brushed aside with silly diversions like this. [could be "SNL"] Anyone who read SNL would know right off it's not him. Even so, how in the world would that negate the points she made?

This attempt to assign authorship to SNL does nothing to answer the excellent points she made and only serves to DIVERT attention away from the message. But maybe that WAS the point? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Waaaaaaaaa

I wanna talk about me!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Color me confused, but why are you only zeroing in on LA's post and not the many others on this thread? Don't get it.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />