Hi, everyone. Hope you had a lovely Christmas or got through with as little hurt as possible.

I'm looking for a Christian perspective on this issue.

H disclosed to me that he is still struggling with the way our former denominational leaders mistreated him when we chose to resign from ministry.

A lot of hurtful things toward H transpired which still bug me a bit but honestly I don't even think of that much now. What surprises me is H who is generally pretty stoic about life is really struggling more with rejection and anger issues toward our old church now--this stuff all happened in the spring of 2001.

It's compounded by the fact that he was denied ordination in our new denomination because of lacking one particular "spiritual gift"--no matter that he is a godly man of integrity.

Neither of us have been people to live in the past so it's surprising to me that this has become a spiritual dilemma for him especially ( me in different ways.)

Any thoughts?

I'm by no means a spiritual expert but since religious institutions are organizations that are run by human beings, there will always be the possibility that politics will rear it's ugly head EVEN in said institutions. I hope that is not the case here because it is a betrayal of all things spiritually good. Unfortunately, there is sometimes very little that an individual can do to open denominational leaders minds (or hearts) if they are adamant about their rules. You and your H might want to consider voting with your feet because any denomination that treats Godly people this way IMNSHO is not worthy of them.

freshstart,

I am a protestant to let you know first before I put my oppinion. We serve our Lord we do not serve other people. We seek approval from HIM not other people. We are expected not expecting from serving HIM. I 've changed church long time ago not because of the people but because I would not be able to serve HIM according HIS will. Pray and ask HIS guidance ... HE will let you know.

God Bless you.
-RH-

CoffeMan,

Are you drinking coffee too much again ? ... IMNSHO ... LOL !!!!. It is InMyNonSenseHumbleOppinion ?. LOL !!!.

Merry Christmas and happy holiday my man. -RH-

Hi
I too am married to a man who finds it difficult to forgive previous elders for hurts inflicted in the past. He blames his walk away from God and subsequent affair on the way he perceived he was treated. I like you have seen and felt the hurts with him but then have acknowledged that these are humans who also make mistakes. Our S's seem unable to accept this ( and in my H case he therefore also finds it difficult to accept his own failings and forgive himself!)My only solution at this time is prayer for all involved that Gods own love and forgiveness will turn their difficulties around.

Jante

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by redhat:
<strong>CoffeMan,

Are you drinking coffee too much again ? ... IMNSHO ... LOL !!!!. It is InMyNonSenseHumbleOppinion ?. LOL !!!.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What a silly question, of course otherwise I wouldn't be TMCM, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Merry Christmas and happy holiday my man. -RH-</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You too my friend.

Thanks for all the answers..

Toomuchcoffeeman, I am a bit of a coffee fiend myself!! Always did like your name!

I'm a Protestant, too from holiness tradition churches.

I know it's H's problem and not exactly mine but I feel as his partner a need to help him work these things through. He can really shut me out emotionally on such issues so it's quite something he would even tell me he is struggling. I feel so helpless to help him process it and get past the anger.

It's not as severe as many problems here and I don't mean to take away from others...just wondering other than prayer and patience, is there anything I can do?

The whole story is long and ugly--basically revolves around leadership betraying H in response to my disclosure of betrayal--something I will never understand.

I haven't given up on the Church as every church has its share of corruption...after all, no church can be perfect when it has people in it!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But it's horrifying how far people can meander from standards in the name of justice and self-righteousness <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Thanks..just in a thinking mode today.

Freshstart I'm glad that you have not given up on the Church because some foolish church leaders fail to practice what they preach. The sad part in all this is the loss that the church and it's members will suffer because your H is not given the opportunity to be a leader. How many people could have beneffited from your H's wise counsel. Injustice indeed.

Why limit yourself to a "Christian" perspective?

Seems there are parallels in any institution that considers itself righteous, yet practices hypocrisy.

Organized religion does not have a corner on this market albeit it is frequently the most visible.

Your H is being judged, pure and simple, by those who should judge not. What makes it worse, is they profess not to judge - hence the hypocrisy.

Open your eyes and see the parallels elsewhere in society. This may give you a broader view.

FS,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, everyone. Hope you had a lovely Christmas or got through with as little hurt as possible.

I'm looking for a Christian perspective on this issue. H disclosed to me that he is still struggling with the way our former denominational leaders mistreated him when we chose to resign from ministry.

A lot of hurtful things toward H transpired which still bug me a bit but honestly I don't even think of that much now. What surprises me is H who is generally pretty
stoic about life is really struggling more with rejection and anger issues toward our old church now--this stuff all happened in the spring of 2001.

It's compounded by the fact that he was denied ordination in our new denomination because of lacking one particular "spiritual gift"--no matter that he is a godly man of integrity.

Neither of us have been people to live in the past so it's surprising to me that this has become a spiritual dilemma for him especially ( me in different ways.)

Any thoughts? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I do have a few thoughts. I have made bold the operative things you have said. His current feelings ARE NOT COMPOUNDED but are further hurt by what has happened again to him.

FS, I know you lost your ministry and I know it was a loss for you. I also know that you have filled your life with many other things. Your D's, your work, etc.

But, FS your H lost something very dear to him through no fault of his own. Those closest to him and who he worked most closely betrayed him. I have choosen my words carefully. If I told you he still harbored feelings of hurt from your A, you wouldn't be surprised would you? I mean it has been less than two years. But, FS he was betrayed twice and the people in his church didn't have the courage or integrity to do what you did. They have never apologized, they never understood what he was going through and didn't try.

FS, you must understand this is deeper than you think. It goes to the core of who your H is and wants to be. He wants to be a minister. He wants to help people and yes receive their respect. He isn't getting to do this and it is eating at him. He may well be wandering about his choices. His faith is being tested.

How can you help? I think more than anything you can listen to him. Get him to talk about his sense of betrayal. And FS you can have FAITH in him and tell him. He has faced a lot of tough stuff and done his best to overcome them, but it takes energy to do this, and he may need a new charge from you. A prayer, a hug, a kiss and a few thank you's just might help a bit.

FS, at the risk of sounding sexist, men tend to indentify themselves with their job, their chosen profession, etc. In someways it is who we are. To lose that identity really hurts.

So talk with him, but mostly love him FS. He needs you more than ever.

God Bless,

JL

JL, it is sooo good to hear from you, even if you did make me cry!

You always hit it so accurately--you knew I am wondering: "Is this really all my fault? Is he really more upset at my betrayal?"

I set things in ricochet-motion somehow...H IS in ministry again but not ordained at the moment...not that that is the be-all and end-all but as you say, actually for him, it is. He ran from his call for years and then found contentment (in ministry but not our former denomination in particular--there are even more family politics of rejection involved but too much for here.)

JL, you know that he also told me recently that he didn't fully trust me with a family friend and how much that hurt. My world feels so upside down. Am I in recovery or is everything just a facade?

How can I get him to be honest when he actually told me he was feeling mistrust and then he denied saying it? So typical of him on the rare occasions this happens in our M. He worries so much about hurting me when I did irreparable damage to him.

Thanks for your insights. I will give it a lot of thought. I know you are right.

I forgot to thank you, WAT, for your perspective, too. Appreciated.

FS,

Are you surprised that he doesn't completely trust you? You know that Harley himself that he should NEVER trust completely again. I do think that what you are really hearing is that his self-esteem is pretty low right now. He is having a hard time believing that anyone is really in HIS corner with regard to his chosen profession. But, the point is it isn't your A.

It is what these people did and said about him. It is one thing to be able to address lies and betrayal, it is another to just have to take it. The latter leaves a very deep wound. Made even deeper by your current church's decision.

But, FS this is an OPPORTUNITY for YOU to help your H and further confirm that he chose wisely when he chose you TWICE. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Remember he did get to make two choices and both times you were his choice. Not bad FS. Not bad at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am sure he is a bit depressed about this latest decision, but it is part and parcel connected with how the previous church treated him. I think you know my opinions on these matters.

So FS make sure he knows you want him and that he is your choice and will be. You might point out that he has value to many people and that people do appreciate his efforts. Often people don't notice the obvious.

Have a good night and God Bless,

JL

Thanks so much, JL and all.

I have been wondering if I should cave and tell him go ahead and look for yet another church...I am so tired of moving and change but I want H's happiness above all. The actual church is very cool and we'll never find another one like it. They are not all wrapped up in denominational ties and actually are quite hurt for H that church governance refuses his ordination. Senior Pastor is busy looking for alternative places for ordination and even considering leaving the denomination but H doesn't want to be the catalyst for such change.

I guess it will really be nice for both H and I to find out who and what we'll be when we grow up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Until then, we'll live each day as it comes and work on pursuing dreams which we have a lot of freedom to do currently. Accentuate the positive.

JustLearning, I thought about emailing you..I hope I'm not wrong to post here...

I can't process the fact that I can never be trusted again...If Dr. Harley believes that, then why should any BS ever forgive? Why wouldn't everyone end up in divorce? I don't believe that is a solution--I just don't understand.

H explained it was more concern than mistrust with our friend. He worried that the friendship was growing but he knew I was not crossing any boundaries or trying to stage things to be alone. As a matter of fact, the moment the friendship began to grow, I drew H into it for my own protection and I thought for his benefit. He has become a good friend to this other person.

I feel so sad to think I am unworthy of trust. Have I misunderstood? If I can't be trusted, then I should pack up and join a nunnery and go serve overseas--except I'm too broke and I don't think that's a solution in this case, either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Help!

FS,

You missed the point. Harley feels that "blind" trust is what causes problems. We should constantly watch our spouses, and make sure we are meeting their needs. That A's can happen to about anyone, and therefore, complacency is not a good idea.

You can be trusted, and it is clear your H does trust you. You have a great deal of autonomy in your job and you meet and deal with many males. Your H doesn't follow you around nor does he grill you each night. BUT, he is much more aware now. He is more sensitive to little things that may or may not mean that something is starting. He won't "trust" that they don't mean anything any more. He is wise.

This doesn't mean he doesn't trust you, it means he is more aware, more sensitive, and now willing to speak up if he is uncomfortable. It is a good thing FS. Really it is.

You know part of me just wanted to throw my hands up and scream WOMAN!!! when you posted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Many complain that their H's don't pay enough attention, don't understand them, are not sensitive to them. So you now have an H that is all of these things and you are down because he doesn't trust you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> For better or worse you now have a newly sensitized, new age man on your hands. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> He loves you and cares. Deal with it.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ December 29, 2002, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Hi FS,
It's good to hear from you after all this time. I usually lurk over here but pretty much stay in the recovery area.

Anyway...there's trust..and then there is trust.
JL had it right about the blind trust...it would be silly to have blind trust in anyone as I've learned. And, as I am human and just as prone to bad judgement and mistakes..well, it would be silly for anyone to have blind trust in me!

But what about the kind of trust it takes to be able to bear your soul to another and know that you'll be received with empathy, acceptance, respect, support and love no matter what the topic or whether or not you even agree with his point of view? I think that is more to the point. That is more what trust building is in a relationship. Does that make sense?

Funny, JL has been responding to a thread of mine over in Recovery...but your situation makes me think. Your H is not able to do his life's work. I wonder what my partner's life will be like in 3 years when he will no longer be doing his. Now granted..that will be by his choice rather than a decision made by others, but still...it MUST be frightening to have defined yourself mostly by the work you do. So what happens when it is no longer possible?

I know if someone told me I could no longer take care of patients...I would be so unsure of myself...I would wonder about my real worth..I would look back and start second guessing if things I did really made any difference to someone, if I made bad decisions...I think I would feel worthless, humiliated and defenseless.

You asked about changing churches...I say support him in this if it is what he wants. If the tables were turned...if you were "walking in his moccasins" what would you want?

Hugs,
T

JL, thanks for not screaming <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and for your point of view. I was pretty sure I had it wrong but couldn't believe how devestated I felt at the thought of not being worthy of trust after all these months.

Twyla, good to hear from you, too. You touched on a "biggie" in our lives--being defined by work. It was something I thought I would escape when I was no longer a pastor myself but I repeated the pattern in my new line of work. Now that I'm uncertain if I will stay or have a job there for long, I'm growing insecure about everything lately. And for H, it's what he's done since he was 27 years old--a lifetime of "being". Post A in recovery, I have to say we have done a bit of becoming and that's a very good thing.

I did ask H about changing churches and he shocked me by saying he doesn't feel he wants to for a couple years yet. He is 45 so that worries me a little but seasoned pastors are usually appealing to most congregations.

One of you mentioned being able to bare your soul to your partner. Sometimes I wonder if H and I haven't taken a giant leap backward in that regard. It baffles me how the most intimate person in my life can be so hard to share with and so hard to read at times.

We had a good talk about this the other night and I think things are getting back on track.

JL, I'm sorry for being frustrating--I have been in a really rotten, rocky frame of mind lately, spending way too much time feeling sorry for myself and powerless about a few other circumstances in my life outside my M. I think I am beginning to recover from that,too, thank God.
Then again there's my D who seemed to mutate on her 16th birthday! AAAAAA! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Have a great day everyone. Thanks again for your insights and helping me understand things better.

JL, you are so right. I must be the most blessed of all spouses to have the attention H gives me. I was in a chat room (a church one, don't worry!) and introducing myself by saying we will have been married 19 years Jan. 14--someone joked that you get less for murder <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I said, No, I married the best man..well, not literally, I DID marry my groom! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But, to me, H is both! Awwww <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ December 29, 2002, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: freshstart ]</small>

I agree with those who remarked about one serves God, not men, and about hipocrisy, judgeing, etc. Indeed your H should try not to take this as definitive about him. However, pride is an issue for all of us too (I am a christian also btw). Your H anger may come from his own pride, how dare they yada yada yada. Further satan is always working his mischief, and what better way than to interfere in your H life so as to evoke a prideful response to "others" behaviour (including yours). As for the trust issue. I don't fully agree with the idea of blind trust and "losing" it. It seems to me trust is a fundamental characteristic of a successful relationship, and if it cannot be restored that says something (not good) about the quality of a relationship. I also don't think anyone trusts blindly, otherwise lies would always work, but eventually they don't. It seemed to me your H question was reasonable, and not untrustworthy. It was reflective of recent history and your behaviour, and he was just asking, not accusing (I assume), has nothing to do with trust. Has to do with how we should help each other in a relationship, much like you were describing your desire to help him with his stuff about the church.

If you (for example) think my suggestion about pride has merit, than asking him to consider that (and possibly annoying him) is similar to his asking you about a trust issue. If people are fundamentally good for each other than these kinds of interactions work, if not, they distance and conflict, and that is something different. Your concern about being trusted was just as legitimate. If we encourage discussing our feelings with a spouse, that means all our feelings. It sometimes feels (here) like a bs gains some sort of moral advantage over a ws, and their are various comments about never trusting again etc. etc. as if the ws must always be "watched". I don't think this is true, and I don't think it is what Harley meant. Being a watchdog over your spouse will not build a deep relationship, only trust will. Those who cannot find it in themselves to trust like that again have their own problem, or the relationship is flawed. It feels scarey to trust that way again, but it is good thing to work toward, and likewise it is a good thing to expect.

FS, you should be "blindly" trusted again, and if you really are not (and that was unclear cause your H question was not unreasonable at this point in time), then it will impact your relationship, it sounds like you realize that. It is too easy to sweep these kinds of things under the rug, and such "sweepings" seem to crop up later and bite you badly. We (all) know when a relationship is right, you can feel it, trust is essential to that, and letting go of worrying about your spouse wandering is as key component of that trust, anything less and you are just their jailor. That's my 2 cents.

FS,
Mutating daughters...LOL, I'll keep you in my prayers...mine will be 18 soon and I still spend time looking for the sweet little girl who was replaced by the monster..AAACCCKKKK!

You mentioned "powerless". That's a heck of a feeling isn't it. Seems like it brings out all of my worst features when I feel that way. One of the hardest things I learned through the A and the aftermath is that power and control are 2 different things. Now I'm starting to confuse myself...but..I think I'm getting to the point that when things happen I have no control over..I don't have to run right out and "fix" or take over control. I can gain "power" by simply attending to the way I respond.

Disappointments, uncertainty, feeling inadequate...these things don't have to be fixed...they have to be recognized, understood and then accepted.

I'm not saying this right at all...thought I would just erase this post, but I think I'll let it stand until I think of a better way to express it.

T