I hope you all had a Merry or at least pleasant Christmas.

I'm back home, and online again. I'm also alone again. Whoopie.

Today is my 7th wedding anniversary. I plan to spend it at home alone, and not leave at all, just in case my H has a change of heart and decides to contact me, and maybe even invite me to be with him at some point today.

I just got back from a trip away with my family for Christmas, the first Christmas I've spent without my H in over 10 years. I survived it.

I'm sitting here this morning trying to decide how to word an email to my H telling him that I'm home, and that I will be here all day just in case he changes his mind about how he plans to spend the day. I am not allowed to contact him according to his rules, so I figure an email is less of an infraction than a phone call or showing up at his (our) house. Really, I couldn't handle him being short with me on the phone, so I'm sort of being a chicken here I guess, while also trying to respect his wishes.

Maybe if I don't hear from him by later in the afternoon I'll try calling him to invite him to spend time with me. Sound wise or dumb? Do I dare to call him at the exact time we said "I do" all those years ago?

I've "broken the rules" twice, I phoned him on Dec. 23 and left a message, and then on Dec. 24th I showed up at the house to see him before leaving for Christmas with my family. He pointed out that I had broken the rules those 2 times. He didn't say what he'd do if I broke them again though. I told him that I sometimes thought that the purpose of those rules was for him to see if I cared enough about him to break them. He just laughed at that. Stupid me, I never asked him what the rules are for, or what they are supposed to accomplish. That's one thing I'll be asking him the next time we talk.

Any thoughts folks?

Jen

"I am not allowed to contact him according to his rules."

.... rules? .... or requests?

I am not sure I understand you.

Is there a specific set of "rules" which you have agreed to?

Pepper

Jen:

Rules? Screw the rules! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Do what YOU believe is right for YOU.

Our anniversary was on the 27th. 27 years! I felt pretty down coming into it, but decided to make reservations at a nice hotel anyway. Even up until the day before, my W didn't say much about it, so I didn't know whether she was interested in going or not. I had serious moments of doubt, and even thought about cancelling the reservation. But I didn't and we ended up having a great time (even though we both had colds!). We may not have resolved our problems, but at least this way we can remember our anniversary fondly rather than with resentment, no matter what happens to us.

Jen - while I'm aware of the overall "plot" of your story, I confess not to be up on some details.

What is the current legal arrangement? Legal separation?

What has your H said about future activities, or did all plans stop on Nov. 8? Does he intend to file for divorce?

Without knowing more details, I'd suggest you contact him somehow on this anniversary if nothing more than just to express again your desires that it be the "low point" anniversary of many more to come.

You've already aptly noted the feast or famine dichotomy of your situation. I sincerely empathize with you the frustration of not being able to "break through" the protective shell too often self-erected around those who refuse to see. In this sense, there is no dichotomy between you and the typical BS. I wish I knew the magic words for you.

Jen -
I tend to agree with T-zero - rules be d**ned! How are you supposed to move forward, backward, or sideways if you can't communicate!!!????!!!

I understand his incommunicado wish up to a point. When you first learn of the A you might want a little time to think but I think he's had that time. He's playing mind games with you and making all the rules.

You posted about "tiptoeing" BS. WAT replied that you two were "not the norm" in your ways of dealing with it and when you started acted "normal" he would too. Not that we want you to act "foggy" or not knowing what you want, but I think it's time to do something! Just do it.
DB

Pepper - well it was my H's request that only he contact me and not the other way around. I agreed to this (thinking I had to in order to not LB, and to have any hope in hell of being with him). However, he refers to it as "the rules".

T-zero - I am so happy to hear you spent your anniversary together. Good for you for making the reservations. I know that if I did something similar, my H would most likely refuse to participate because that would mean he was giving up control. That's how I am guessing things would go at least. Besides, wouldn't it ruin the happy memory of the hotel we spent our wedding night in if we went there today, after all this mess? (In my opinion, it's the only hotel worth going to.)

WAT - we are legally separated (we have a typed and signed separation agreement). We live apart because he asked me to move out. He won't discuss future activities. He says he still plans to divorce me if I press the issue, that he's waiting for the one year time period to elapse so he can have his divorce. During one of our long chats the week before xmas, I pointed out that at some point we need to cross the chasm that we have created, take a leap of faith, and choose to work on this together. That is when he said he isn't ready to do that yet. Yes, he actually said "yet". He is still undecided, and he needs time to figure out what he wants and needs and can accept. He finds that one of the biggest hurdles for him is the intense shame of all of this, with his family. As it stands, he feels that he looks like a man who couldn't meet my needs. And if he takes me back, he worries that he'll look like a fool too. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Without knowing more details, I'd suggest you contact him somehow on this anniversary if nothing more than just to express again your desires that it be the "low point" anniversary of many more to come. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, I really like how you worded that. I may just have to use that!! Oh and there are no magic words, but thanks for wishing you knew them anyway!

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>He finds that one of the biggest hurdles for him is the intense shame of all of this, with his family. As it stands, he feels that he looks like a man who couldn't meet my needs. And if he takes me back, he worries that he'll look like a fool too.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aha! Now I understand better: his pride is square in the way.

What's with the one year waiting period? This usually is present only when minor children are involved - maybe I'm really not up on your details and you have kids, or your locals have the right idea.

What's the current relationship between you and his "family" that he's afraid of? Have you tried to mend fences with them?

One more question, please update me on attempts at counseling, either joint or individually for him?

Sorry for being so uninformed.

WAT

Jen,

I would suggest that you celebrate your marriage, what it has been, what it is, what it could be.

Note I said YOU, if it were me, id make plans that were a personal celebration of the thing i say i value so much. because if its really that important to "YOU" its worth celebration even if he doesnt participate.

this is a chance to GIVE. make plans that are ceremonious, jubilant, reverant, whatever touches your soul and honors your commitment to your marriage.

make your plans public. send a mass e-mail to everyone you know telling of how your going to celebrate your marriage. no pity, no downers, just the plan of events that your going to do to celebrate your marriage.

this isnt a ploy to get him to come and participate, its a public display of your appreciation of your marriage, a public display of your commitment to it, past, present, and future.

no apologies, no double talk, this is all about Jen Brown honoring her marriage.

if it is genuine, if it is real, he will see that. remember this isnt for him expressedly its for you. and if by chance he decides to view it, dont change the plan dont deviate from the personal honoring of your marriage. remember you cant make him do anything but through your actions you can have influence and through your change, he will change.

WAT - no need to apologize. I'm happy to update you.

Where I live, grounds for divorce are:
a) the spouses have lived separate and apart for at least one year
b) one spouse has committed adultery (and this is testified to in an affidavit)
c) physical or mental cruelty

You can't get a divorce in Canada based on incompatibility alone.

The current relationship between me and his family is that I haven't talked to them since June. He requested that I stay away from them so I have. I sent his parents and grandparents xmas cards though. His mom sent me one back, with a loving, positive message in it. I've offered to directly apologize to each and every one of them. I always had a great relationship with his family though. I haven't tried to mend fences with them other than sending the cards. I didn't want to upset my H by going against his request. That and he said that whenever they put pressure on him or even begin to suggest he should try to work things out with me that it makes him feel like running, so I don't want to add to that pressure.

There, hope that additional info helps WAT.

Chaz - while I see your point about celebrating the marriage however I want to, I am not going to be sending any mass emails. This marriage is between 2 people, not between us and a million friends. Besides, that kind of ploy (that's what it is) would just upset my H and send him running. Believe me, I know him well.

JB

<small>[ December 30, 2002, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

OK, sounds like his family is not the kind to throw shame on him. Sorta contradicts his explanation, hmmmmm?

Also, maybe it's more than just pride - could be he's scared $hitle$$ that he's gonna get hurt again.

I'm not sure what you should do beyond the anniversary, but for now, I suggest you communicate your desires on this most important "marriage" date.

What about the counseling question?

I hope you don't have to wait the full year to find out if he's got the anatomy to file. He may not and maybe afterwards he'll soften up a bit. I guess in the meantime you have to wait and take all opportunities to interact and do it well. Break the "rules" and communicate - but not too often lest you become a pest. Perhaps a counselor has some good ideas.

I'm sorry nothing further jumps out for me right now.

WAT

jen,

if things were going good, would you tell everyone you knew that your anniversary is today? would you share with them how you planned to celebrate?

I know i do. its not a ploy to share your love of your H with those you know and love. thats what people who love do. my anniversary is feb 15th and im telling everyone i know already. its part of how i honor my marriage. by recognizing how special the day is in front of god and everyone.

it is a special day, more special than almost any other day, its the day that you choose each other. a day that you declared to the world you forsake all others. whats wrong with making that declaration on its anniversary all over again!

They don't throw shame on him, but they have always had high expectations, and like to believe they are big Christians too, however that fits in.

I went for IC, about 6 or 7 sessions from June until October. I kind of felt like my counsellor had done all she could for me. Now I need to do things for me, and hopefully eventually I can persuade hhim to go for MC. His original attitude was he didn't make the mistakes, so he didn't need counselling. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Break the "rules" and communicate - but not too often lest you become a pest. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that has sort of been my plan, that I intend to stick with for a while and see how it goes.

JB

Jen
As you know
Im thinking of you today. If you need me, you know how to reach me.

Hugs.
Zoey

Jen, I'm sorry for what you are still going through and feel frustrated for you. We were originally posting around the same time - both FWS's so I can understand some of what you are going through.

I especially pay attention to your posts. I feel sympathy for you b/c I see your H as punishing you. I know it was his best friend that you had the A with and that's very sad.

I see your willingness to make your M work and that's good. I also see your H being a bit of a control freak with the "rules" thing. Not good.

He's got a strange way of "punishing" you. In my case, I confessed to A, H did not find out on his own and it wasn't with his BF. Maybe that made it easier for my H to deal with??

Is your H taking any responsibility for the state of your M prior to the A.

I'm sure you already know that the A was your horrible choice and you are suffering the consequences.

I just want you to know that I'm thinking of you and hoping/praying for the best.

I say send him a card AND contact him. He needs to learn how to deal with you if he wants the M to last. Is forgiveness even an option for him? Wasn't he involved in a couple of EA's earlier? Are they over?

Continue to take care of yourself.

Jen -

I just had a crazy thought while I was thinking about your sitch and you can do with my thoughts what they're worth...

What about setting some "rules" of your own?

What about asking or telling him that you will agree to the divorce if he lets you move back in for the remainder of the year and try to work on M. If after that amount of time, he doesn't "love" you anymore, then you can part ways.

Maybe this program will be hard on you but how much harder can it be than being apart? And what have you got to lose by asking (or telling)?

I don't know what you can do if he doesn't agree, however. Can the divorce be made harder or easier? I don't know that answer.
JMHI(idea).
DB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hydra:
<strong>I especially pay attention to your posts. I feel sympathy for you b/c I see your H as punishing you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I follow her story alot to but because i see Jen as a WS who believes its appropriate for her H to punish her.

post like the recent why to bs's tiptoe etc. I'm not sure how to help but i just know of other WS who always feel the need to be punished as some kind of pennance for thier sins, or to keep themselves in-line.

either way its not good for the marriage..

Hydra - thanks for your post. I am quite certain that you confessing to your A, and the fact that it was not with your H's BF are huge factors in your more successful recovery.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is your H taking any responsibility for the state of your M prior to the A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, he is not, at least not at this point. As far as he is concerned, he was entitled to his friendships with those 2 females because I wasn't meeting his needs. I apparently drove him to them he says. I've never suggested that he was having an EA. It would fall on deaf ears. Are his EAs over? Far from it. Those 2 women are his only friends beyond his brothers that he spends time with. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm sure you already know that the A was your horrible choice and you are suffering the consequences. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I certainly do.

dazedblonde - That's definitely a unique suggestion you have there. However, there is no way my H would agree to letting me move home for at least one major reason - he wouldn't want to get his parents' hopes up unnecessarily. He couldn't do that to them. However, I am not counting out the possibility. I may even suggest it to him. "Let's try living together again, and if it doesn't work, I will let you having your divorce." Although, him letting me move back in with him would be very difficult for him to do. He's all about his pride. Letting me move back in might make him look like a fool to his family in his eyes (I cheat on him and he takes me back?). That is 50% of his struggle. The other 50% is his fear of me hurting him again.

JB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I follow her story alot to but because i see Jen as a WS who believes its appropriate for her H to punish her.

post like the recent why to bs's tiptoe etc. I'm not sure how to help but i just know of other WS who always feel the need to be punished as some kind of pennance for thier sins, or to keep themselves in-line.

either way its not good for the marriage.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chaz - I just don't see how I can demand anything different.....if he's not willing to accept some responsibility for the state of the marriage before the A, and I haven't got him at a point where he's certain he wants back into the marriage, how can I tell him to stop beating me up about it? I feel like that will make him see me as unrepenting, and unaware of his pain, and that it will drive him away. Besides, that's how I dealt with the previous two non-sexual A's I had, I told him to stop beating me up about it. Now I have no power, then I was his wife, who still lived with him, and who everyone still thought was a good person (not an adulterous woman).

It sounds to me too like a good plan A involves just sucking it up and taking the punishment. I know Zoey, another FWS (even though hers was an EA, not a PA) has told me over and over again that I must take it, that that is the only way things will work.

I hate that I let him treat me as he does, because Dr. Phil's mantra rings in my ears, "People treat you the way you let them treat you." I don't want to be treated like a 2nd class citizen forever. But I'm still in the "see how repentive I am, and that I accept full responsibility for what I did? Please won't you forigve me?" mode.

I don't know what else to do at this point other than "take it" from him.

JB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Jen:

Yes, people treat you the way you think they should treat you, but:

I read years ago that deaf people were treated as retarded, because they couldn't communicate effectively at the time. What a horrible thing to do to a big chunk of the population!!!

I like chaz's suggestion. Make today about YOU and YOUR values. Jen, I've been pretty vocal in the past about how I don't think your H is behaving like an adult. I'm sorry, but that boy needs to be figuratively slapped around a LOT. You are a wonderful, growing person (what we should all HOPE to be), and he's preventing a glorious opportunity for the two of you to grow together from this awful experience.

I was just thinking about this today: For me, my W's 12-year A has been earth-shaking. Far more destructive than the fire at our house last year. Far more destructive than the fact that my VW pickup needs a rebuilt transmission (okay, far, far, far, far, far, far, more than that!!!). And yet, for my W, it hasn't been all that bad. She's had cake, frosting, layers, ...the whole 27 feet, for the past 12 years. The most "destructive" things for her ARE the fire, and my discovery of her A early this year. Different perspectives.

But I can't understand your H's perspective in this sitch, and I know the history of it. He needs that 2x4 smacked upside his haid about now, is MHO.

Hi Jen,

I am glad you made it through Christmas OK. I am sure the significance of the day has not escaped your husband. I wonder how much he has had to drink today so far.

It is such a hard place you are in. You are strong to keep up the way you are. These rules are pretty useless unless you both can define what benefit they offer your future.

Also I know in the US "living apart and separate" does not just refer to financial matters but also marital relations...if this is also true in Cananda hasnt he restarted his countdown? My point is if that is the case the whole "I am waiting out the year to divorce you" won't hold water. When one is asked to swear an affadavit to infidelity and certify that the marital relationship has ceased for 1 year that is a matter of record for any court...and if sworn to falsely is perjury. I do not think he is that ill informed. He just enjoys the power of getting his way and holding it over your head.

All this being said...I hope something positive comes of today. As someone else said may this be the lowest of all your anniversaries so that your future may only be brighter.

ayslyne