only for you to find out later is was really a PA? I want to believe my H but, more often than not, it seems that for men the affair is physical.

Sure did. I only found out the truth by further snooping. He was blown away that I found out. However, he had had a ONS about 13 or 14 years ago and at that time in a moment of pure anguish I said something to the effect that "You feel better telling me about it but I don't feel better knowing. Next time don't tell me". He chose to remember that infamous line.

Good luck Acme.
DB

Acme,

My STBX never even admitted it was an EA, in spite of me hearing her tell him she was in love with him, phone records revealing 1000+ calls between them, etc. "He is just a friend..." yada, yada, yada. I gave up trying to get her to admit anything long ago. The lying hurt more than the truth, because she wasn't lying to protect me (not that that's good either), she was lying to save face.

sad dad

Acme - I suggest that you not focus on the EA/PA difference. In fact, if it was only PA, some will argue that you have an easier go recovering because withdrawal from EAs can be so difficult. In other words, if it was only EA, it can be far, far worse. Understand?

A WS that argues "it was only an EA" is revealing their ignorance of the dynamics of affairs - especially if the WS is male. And if a female BS buys this, they're likely being duped. ASSUME it was PA. Either way, your actions should be the same. Yes, PAs carry more symbolic meaning and more of an insult - but they really only carry weight emotionally on the BS and legally.

Just MHO.

Sad Dad,
like you my H told me she was just a friendly co-worker that needed to talk. It has been 15 months since I found out. My H said that they just talked on the phone. We are commited to staying married but my H will not talk about this women or their relationship. I find his silence a barrier that is stalling my recovery. All he ever told me, after I found out, was he told her he would not be calling anymore because he was afraid it(their relationship) would get out of control. He started calling her at work ,then her private work number, then her cell phone, then her home phone. I saw it on his cell phone bill. I have always viewed this as an EA and often wonder if it was a PA. He has many reasons to be out of town, she lives about 2-3 hours from us. I will never know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Acme

Well...he sure tried! But I already knew it had gone PA and so he didn't lie about that aspect for long. Lied about a lot of things in the beginning. Thinking FALSELY that he was trying to protect me from further harm and his own @$$. Denial is part of the process. To have the affair, they start lieing to you and themselves. They've laid some bad groundwork which seemed to work for a while and they attempt to keep building on this faulty foundation of lies. They're used to and expecting that "TRUST" you held to still be in your heart...they are lost when they finally discover it's not.

The very best advice you can give a WS is to be honest...it's also one of the hardest lessons they must relearn after a betrayal. The sooner they understand honesty is the strongest weapon they have in their hands the sooner true healing begans.

Acme,

The simple fact is if he's lying or being deceptive to cover up his calls the her, there's a reason why. He'll likely argue because you wouldn't understand or he needed someone to talk to, but that doesn't cut it. Whatever he "needs" to talk to her about, marital problems, his unhappiness, etc., you are his W, he should be talking to you. There's not much you can do about it however.

IMHO, EA's are worse than PA's, in the long run at least. An EA is easy to defend as a "friendship", PA's are blatant betrayals. There is a guilt associated with a PA that will eventually catch up to a WS, not necessarily the case with an EA. I'm living proof of that. I don't know if my W's A was a PA, but it was definately an EA and I haven't seen the slightest bit of guilt or remorse from her. We are divorcing, by her choice, and her EA played a big role in that. She has never indicated any desire to save our marriage or that there was even a chance. The really sad thing is that two months ago she told me she isn't happy, won't be once we're divorced and probably never will be. I could understand her wanting a D if OM was waiting for her (I believe that's over) or if she BELIEVED she would be happy, but knowing she won't be and still wanting it makes no sense.

My advice to you is stop focusing on the EA, it does you no good. Plan A your butt off and give him every reason to want your marriage. When you just can't take it anymore, do what you need to for you (plan B, divorce, whatever).

sad dad

Yup! My stbxWH told me so many lies to cover up his transgressions. I'm totally amazed at the tall tales he told just to cover it up... almost comical now that I look back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> It's the fogese speaking though.

I wish you the best as you try to heal and recover... just know that there's always more to learn when the WS is trying to cover tracks.

Try to recover ~ refocus ~ regenerate for yourself. If you can... get away by yourself to relax and take yourself out of the stress of the home. I always wished I could take just one night away and stay in a hotel. It would have been great to soak in a hot bath and pamper myself and think more clearly.

Good luck!

{{{{{acme}}}}}

I feel like my FWH has basically been honest from the get go. Is kissing/petting a PA? Or is it the passage from the EA to the PA? Whichever, I feel like every detail my H gave me was the honest truth. There were 2 instances within a month of d-day where additional details came out that he "thought" he had already told me, and with as much hashing and rehashing as we did of the "details" I let him by on those two pieces of info. They WERE two of the more "sexual" moments of the petting, and he probably didn't want to tell me originally, but as time passed, those details did surface. The reason I believe him is because in ALL of the times we've discussed the events of his A, his story has never changed. I've asked questions every way I know how in order to trip him up (and he's known to get tripped up if what he's saying isn't 100% for sure), and he's never contradicted himself. Therefore, I believe him. The truth doesn't contradict itself, lies do, liars do.

Basically, it has been a year - we quit discussing details months ago (because I felt confident in his "story"). There have been no new revelations, no STDs, no accusations from OW, etc. Nothing to refute what he's told me. Now, tomorrow's another day, and I've reserved about 1% of my trust in case he had me that fooled. But with my H, it would have been all PA, just a little EA. He just decided on his own that the kissing/petting was going to cost him to much and he decided to have sex with her would definetely cost him ALL. So he broke it off.

Jamup,

Quit bragging!!! Just kidding. I'm so glad your H saw the errors of his ways and took responsibility for his actions. If we could all be so lucky. Unfortunately for some of us BS's, our WS's would rather run than face the music. I understand why my W had her EA and that I contributed to making it possible. I was willing to forgive her for it, learn from it and make every effort to save our marriage, but never got the chance. In the end, I'll be better off than her, financially and emotionally, and I will be happy again someday. She will continue to be unhappy until she looks inside herself and stops looking for someone to blame or someone to make her happy. For her sake and our daughter's, I hope that day comes soon.

sad dad

Heehee, wasn't trying to brag at all. Coming through an A isn't something to brag about, but i guess it's an accomplishment regardless. Is my marriage headed for another 25 years - ha, who knows. And for the record, my H DID lie to me during the A. Had I suspected an A, however, I would have uncovered those lies then, and would have seen through the "avoiding eye contact", "avoiding the subject", etc that he did during the A. One reason I feel like I have the truth is because after d-day when I pressed for answers, he DID look me in the eye, and he DID discuss the subject.

Maybe all BSs need to take a "lie detecting" course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks to all for the information, my husband will listen as I tell him how I feel, what I need etc....but he has never told me anything about his relationship with his coworker or that he feels their relationship was wrong or why he keep it a secret. If I press he says he can't remember all they had talked about or that I was digging just to find things so I could divorce him. In the end I have been left to just deal with what I know and my own feelings. I don't know how he has felt about this other woman. One thing he has said "He is sorry for being such a disappointment to me as a husband" I have not been doing all the plan A stuff because I just don't have it in me. I do what feels right to me, something about working to save what I never lost or betrayed (my commitment to our marriage) seems counterproductive when I have been so deeply hurt. I feel because he is the WS and because he wants to be with me he can be the one to work extra hard to prove he future fidelity. I have been working on me.. in the last year I have change my hairstyle and highlights, lost 15 pounds,
have been trying to learn Italian, joined BSF and focused on my children (one of the reasons I have remained in my marriage the other is I really do love my husband)!
Thoughts?

Free2bme-my first time being hugged via the computer. Thanks!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jamup:
<strong>Maybe all BSs need to take a "lie detecting" course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I read a book during the time I was with WH on how to know if someone is lying to you and he had ALL the traits and characteristics.

The problem I had and have is although I know I'm being lied to yet the person (be it WH or kids) swears it's the truth... what do you do at that point (hypothetical questions).

I guess maybe I should reread my Boundaries book... it's been awhile!

Acme... you're welcome for the cyber hug! It's amazing how even those can lift our spirits.

I'm sure you know in your heart if he's telling the truth, but you will never know for sure unless he confesses. You may or may not get that ever (I did eventually, but even notice some discrepancies there).

Whether or not it was an EA or PA... lines and boundaries were crossed and should be dealt with.

Take it one day at a time!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />