</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H is not strong enough to witness your pain ... so what happends next ...?

#18 H falls off the monogamy wagon. He might have chosen to grieve his loss, to surrender to his integrity, and dive into self-evaluation ... but, sadly, he was weak again. Lost his courage. "Says the pain of my recovery is too much for him and me." TAKE NOTE .... YOUR pain was too much ... he completely side-steps HIS pain and makes going to MC all about YOUR pain .... interesting, no? That makes it your fault he fell off the wagon you know if you'd have the decency not to cry and be upset, everything would be OK ...... NOT!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW! Now this is insight!
I just did not think about it being an avoidance of his own inner self and problems. how selfish and a continuing of keeping me on the "blame wagon" Your words open my mind and eyes to a totally different way to look at this.Your words have placed this whole thing in a different light.I have been so down on me. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if you'd have the decency not to cry and be upset, everything would be OK ...... NOT!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H has as much as said this to me using a few different words. Gracious.Where have I been? On the path that would keep me going in the direction of this being about anybody,anything but him! Strange that he has actually said in the last several months that it had nothing to do with anything lacking in me or our M after trying to place the blame on me during the A.He doesn't talk about WHAT it WAS about.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can you see the trend of conflict avoidance here? ... not conflict with you .... but his avoidance of internal conflict with his conscience. Remember those old cartoons when the character would have an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other ... both shouting instructions to the confused character in the center
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES! CONFLICT AVOIDER 100%.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you realize how really very little of this actually has to do with YOU and how you are as a wife, a woman, a lover .... and all that jazz!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes,for the first time since the brainwashing that started 2 years ago. Oh,pepper.Thank you,my friend,thank you.
I have done everything that I know to do to get him to open his eyes,heart and mind.He says he truly loves me,is in love with me,will never do this to me again,wants this M and has no,absolutely no,feelings or thoughts of OW. I feel this WILL happen again if he does not face it,himself or what ever it is he is avioding like the plague.I see him as dishonest.As you said,a fraud.He has simply placed a bandaid on a deep,serious,festering wound and telling me everything will be all right if I will just believe him and shut up about it.
God, you are so smart and intuitive.I am convinced that this makes the most sense that I have found in all of my endeavors to understand.Thank you. Later.

Well .... I'm getting to your H's superior and wonderful qualities ... in a bit. Step by step .... hang on. I am not here to bash your H .... but to hold your hand through some thinking.

gotta go right now

Pep

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper, I do not read anything you have written as bashing my H in any way.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well .... I'm getting to your H's superior and wonderful qualities ... in a bit. Step by step .... hang on. I am not here to bash your H .... but to hold your hand through some thinking.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I got the last part from the beginning of the posts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks.

#19 "He refused and says only that it is because he does not want to ever talk to her or communicate with her." .... hmmmmmm Because it would take COURAGE and CONVICTION to tell OW. Then he'd have to face HER wrath as well as yours! (SIDE BAR : Does your H get along well with his mother? Are they close? Does H have clear boundaries where his mother is concerned? For instance, does he try to manage her emotional well-being for her?)

#20 "I challenge him to ever find anyone who will ever carry the responsibilities in a M that I have carried." ...... Ok. I totally accept this as the truth. You are good at taking responsibility .... have you ever asked yourself if H ever needed/wanted/desired/longed to take care of you ... but, you were so darn responsible and so effecient that he felt unneeded as a man? Is it possible, that the OW was a bit needy ... and made your H feel more manly because he could be the alpha dog in their relationship?

Pepppppppperrrr <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

<<<Can you see the trend of conflict avoidance here? ... not conflict with you .... but his avoidance of internal conflict with his conscience. Remember those old cartoons when the character would have an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other ... both shouting instructions to the confused character in the center>>>

Exactly. Avoiding conflict at all costs not only with me, but with himself. No way is he going to ask himself the very serious question of "How could I have done this to my wife?" If there's even a chance he might have to feel guilty about it, he is simply not going to go there. In nearly three years, all he has done is battle me to the death about how all this was really not such a big deal and why can't I just stop overreacting.

Dr. Phil had a follow-up today with a guy who spent the last ten years of his marriage having great fun flirting with and making close friends out of other women. Nothing physical or sexual, he swore, just harmless fun. It was killing his wife but he just dimissed her as "overreacting" and "trying to make him into somebody else." Three months later, she has filed for divorce and is not looking back. Dr. Phil asked the guy if he was still flirting, now that he's free. "No. It's not so much fun any more."

<<<I have done everything that I know to do to get him to open his eyes,heart and mind. He says he truly loves me,is in love with me,will never do this to me again,wants this M and has no,absolutely no,feelings or thoughts of OW. I feel this WILL happen again if he does not face it,himself or what ever it is he is avioding like the plague. I see him as dishonest. As you said,a fraud. He has simply placed a bandaid on a deep,serious,festering wound and telling me everything will be all right if I will just believe him and shut up about it.>>>

I am in exactly the same place. I could have written every word of your post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SIDE BAR : Does your H get along well with his mother? Are they close? Does H have clear boundaries where his mother is concerned? For instance, does he try to manage her emotional well-being for her</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His mom died. She and H loved each other but had a lot of disagreements and heated arguments.She was very controling and he hated that. She was a bossy woman who would have controled every aspect of his life if she had been allowed.He set boundries but she plowed right past them most of the time. She was very hateful at times to him yet would cry and hug him when he would leave after visits.She had good qualities,too. H's xW is alot like his mother.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> have you ever asked yourself if H ever needed/wanted/desired/longed to take care of you ... but, you were so darn responsible and so effecient that he felt unneeded as a man? Is it possible, that the OW was a bit needy ... and made your H feel more manly because he could be the alpha dog in their relationship?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh,my.This is not even close.This is far from the way things have ever been with me or us,ever.This is the first thing you are waaaayyyy off the mark on. He is the first person who I have ever allowed or trusted myself to be dependant upon in any way. H told me that when we married I did not have to work,could go back to school as I have dreamed of doing for years,or whatever I chose to do. He said that I had worked and had to take care of myself and others most of my life and he wanted to take care of me.It is not good to be totally dependant on anyone so I worked and we shared everything,not just money but responsibility as well. That is not why I married him but it sure was a real show of love and concern in my opinion.
Pepper, I will have to explain what I mean by my being so responsible.We had a wonderful M except for this one situation.You will understand why the IC said that I was the one most likely to have an A as my emotional and sometimes physical needs were not being met as well as I was alone a lot for years due to his working 2 jobs in order to meet the demands,not just the needs of his 2 kids and xW.I was on low maintenance for a long time,yet never wanted him to feel bad about it or to feel any less of a man because of it.

I worked and we put everything together initially,money,household chores,intersts,etc.This is another reason for his shame being so compound.I was anything but dominating and overbearing. He was ALWAYS made to feel like a man in every way.He told the MC that I had always placed him on a pedestal,shown admiration,respect and support even when he did not deserve it. There has been no alpha dog in our relationship.It has been equal most of the time and when it was unbalanced it was on my side but never for him.I have been a submissive W.If there was ever an alpha dog mentallity,it was with him not me.


He has told me that he did not mean(nor even feel it in his heart and mind) what he said about me and that it is one of the things that he hates saying.He does express remorse for the many cruel,disrespectful and untrue things that he said to me during the A.

<small>[ January 27, 2003, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: kings kid ]</small>

"BTW. H's xW is alot like his mother." .... so is H's xOW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You know, H is relieved to be rid of her!

"This is not even close." ....GOOD! I am happy to be told I am incorrect <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> BTW, I did not say "dominent or overbearing" ... more like self relient or self contained is what I meant.

Your H is crazy about you. Tell him you know that is true. Sneak/slip that sentiment into his life daily. He wounded the woman he loves with all his heart and soul ... and he cannot forgive himself. He is wallowing in self-loathing. (not good for recovery) Showing him you acknowledge his love ... or better yet, saying it every day ... will (hopefully) make little dents in his shame .... and he may begin to love himself as much as you love him.

He probably (in part) measures his value of himself as a "MAN" with how well he treats "his woman". Make a big deal of anything he does for you, to please you, any kind gesture.

You two are going to make it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ January 11, 2003, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Kings Kid (AKA Child of God)

Take a look at the "restitution" thread by Leilana on "Recovery" board. It's pretty interesting.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

King's Kid ... are you around?

Hey Pepper,I am around.I have written 2 posts and lost them,had to run do other things,and will try again.I sure am sorry that you are sick.Hope you are better by now.
OK,where were we?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He probably (in part) measures his value of himself as a "MAN" with how well he treats "his woman". Make a big deal of anything he does for you, to please you, any kind gesture.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepper,I have done this for 14 years.I did this even during the A and after his return home.I find it hard to keep sounding as if bragging on myself in telling you what kind of W I have been but I honestly thought I had done most of it right.This has been THE grand case of being blindsided.
#1.I have allowed H to take care of me but I never took advantage of it or him.I've never failed to tell him I find him to be an amazing man,talented in many areas,intelligent,and always thankful of his help with things in our lives. Before H,others had not done for me or taken care of me in some of the ways he has and it is important that he be shown appreciation for what he does.He opened doors for me and always got a thank you,carried heavy things,did odd jobs as well as major repairs around the house,gave me therapeutic massages(as well as loving ones),helped with house work,cooking(he loves to occasionally have me sit and watch tv or just relax while he grills out or cooks breakfast),took great care of me if sick,just sooo much and more than most.I did let him do and I returned it.We also shared and did a lot together.
#2. He is fine with the easy things of recovery,like affection,sex,little things,compliments,etc.But the hard things,like telling OW of NC,answering questions about A or OW,leaving the job,being 100% honest about A and OW, he cannot handle.(Then there was the "fall from the monogamy wagon")
Yes, he is a conflict avoider but denies that he is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> He had no problem saying and doing things that hurt and almost destroyed me. He had a temporary growth of spine and courage when it came to hurting me.I guess I am not as mean as the OW!Gee whiz.Does the good guy really always finish last? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
#3. I have wanted to be mean,hard and vengeful lately. Pain turned inward.That is why I came back here asking for your help.I felt we were supposed to be progressing and I felt like I had backed up.I now realize it is part of the process.You have done a lot to help me.This therapy would have cost me a fortune if I had to pay for it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
#4.I read other posts and realize that I have progressed.I would not want to go back to that feeling and shock of the DDays or when I exchanged my old car for H's from her drive.One of those good-bad feelings."I know the truth and I'll show you(Hee,hee,hee) but it is killing me" feelings.Then the nights and days that followed <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Thank goodness for time and the passing of it.
I am going to post the answer to my "challenge to H to find anyone who has been more responsible" to you in another post.So when you are feeling better,order a pizza,put on your reading glasses and get ready.
I truly want you to know how much I appreciate you and your wonderful words of wisdom and advice.I feel this is also a help to others who are reading here,too.

<small>[ January 27, 2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: kings kid ]</small>

#2 ..... People, in general, put on their best behavior for complete strangers! (think of dating) .... and often feel comfortable showing their weak underbelly to those they trust the most. If I had to take a guess ... I'd say your H trusts you, NOT OW .... "He has a temporary growth of spine and courage when it comes to hurting me. I guess I'm not as mean as the OW." .... True, true .... and H trusts YOU not OW. I learned this via our son ... who is sweet as can be when he's in someone elses house, and then has his mental breakdown at home where he feels safe to let down his guard.

#3 ... "I now realize it is part of the process." .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Ain't it grand when we realize we're NOT CRAZY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

#4 ... I too think others may have appreciated YOUR insights and YOUR sharing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper, I want to thank you again for your advice,support and help.
I have had a house full,H's 2 sons and family,most of them sick with a virus. I was the last to get the "bug" Saturday night and today is my first day to feel close to normal again.It has been a mess.

OW is trying contact again.Another call from H's work over week end,at 1:14 AM.Ringer was turned off with babies and everyone sick so we did not hear to answer but # was on caller ID. I do not know what to do.He says it is not her.He just ignores it.Oh,well.

I just wanted to touch base and say thanks again for everything.You are a super lady.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Onward to better things!