Well, I think I just managed to screw up pretty bad tonight. Ugh, it's depressing just thinking back on it.

My wife called again. It's been a week since our last call which went quite well. All light conversation, very little R talk, very positive.

This week, the call started out that way again. It was going great for about 15 minutes or so (all light conversation stuff) until talk turned to TV episodes. She has no cable until next week, so she's missing some of her favorite stuff. I told her she was welcome to come over here to watch TV, she said she'd feel uncomfortable doing that. I should have let it go but I asked why.

Her response was something to the effect of "I don't know if we can be friends", basically reinforcing that she could be a friend to me but nothing more, that our romantic relationship was over. I told her yes. Then the kicker though, she wanted to know if it would be with the hope of something more, I had to honestly say yes, I did. Why, she asked. Well, I told her, "We're still married."

She then said "I have some papers filled out ready for you to sign that will change all that." So here's where it went really wrong. I told her I did not want to sign divorce papers. She accused me of purposefully making things difficult for her by doing that. I told her it wasn't my intention, but things were happening so fast. After all, not even 3 months since D-Day here.

She got upset and basically told me that she couldn't get a divorce on her own until she was living apart from me for 2 years, and if that was what I wanted, fine, we can be married for 2 years but then she is filing.

She also said that we're not really married, she doesn't live here anymore and we never talk. I probably LBed a little here because I did remind her that we didn't talk or live together by HER choice, not by mine.

She told me she really just wanted her maiden name back more than anything. I had to apologize for this too. When we got married I never really gave her the option to keep it even though she wanted to. I didn't understand. I do now, and I told her that, but it's too late.

So many other things but it's all a blur:

She told me that she felt my expectations were too high, and that she felt pressured. She again told me that she needed space when she first moved out, and when I delivered the Plan A letter to her workplace, that she was scared and thought of me as a stalker. That since then she knew it was over, because she needed time and space and by giving her that letter I wasn't giving that to her.

She cried a lot during the R talk, it started when she told me how she had no money and couldn't afford to do anything because she could barely pay her bills. That I "took care of her" when she was here and when she left, she lost all of that. She said she had $25 to her name but would still not sell the engagement ring I gave her.

I thanked her for her honesty in telling me about her feelings for OM on D-Day. She cried and said "Do you know how hard that was for me?" I did validate here. I told her the best things she did since D-Day were when she was honest with me.

She said she was thinking of moving back home with her parents at the end of the summer. She said she needed to feel "unconditional love" again because she never felt that living here. I of course asked her "What about me?" which was probably a mistake. She said she felt that way about me once, but not any more. She did not feel that love from me and hasn't for a long time.

She feels that all guys are the same, that after a couple of years they become complacent in a relationship and stop contributing to it emotionally. I admitted I was guilty of this and explained to her what I learned. But she expressed that she had no way of knowing it wouldn't happen again and I understood that.

The call basically ended with me again apologizing for some things I'd realized I'd done wrong in our relationship, felt like I was doing a monologue. No response from her, except a tearful "I'm going to go now. Goodnight". Before that, she was trying to get off the call, I could tell the R talk was too much for her and it was a bad experience. Reading back on what I just wrote, it doesn't come off as badly as I think it sounded to me. But trust me when I say I did not get a good vibe from this call at all.

After this call, I think I've really damaged any good things I may done over the past couple weeks. Everything is so fragile and so easily broken in this sort of situation, it seems.

Basically, when the floodgates of R talk opened I let SO much out that I'd been keeping in, since it had been so long since we had any R talk. My mistake. It was like I knew I shouldn't be doing it but I did anyway. Like I felt I had to say it. It obviously didn't work. I don't know if I ever would have had a chance to say the things I said, but tonight just wasn't the time. I should have kept it light again.

To make matters worse, maybe an hour after the call, I was feeling like I needed to do something, so I gave her a quick call back to make sure she was okay. She sounded absolutely irritated to even answer the phone, and basically said "whatever" and hung up on me right away.

So, it looks like I've taken all I've learned and misapplied it in the face of finally having a chance to use it.

I'm disappointed in myself for the way I took care of things, just when I thought I was learning, I allowed this to happen. I blame a lot of it on my impatience.

So I guess now I sit here questioning, now what?

ALS

<small>[ January 09, 2003, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

You are doing what I was doing four months ago. As a consequence of that I feel forced to do Plan B without a good Plan A. I know exactly how you feel. I still want to do it but I've learned to bite my tongue. It took a lot of practice but I managed to succeed for the most part. Now I'm responding that way about 1-2% of the time. I haven't implemented Plan B but will soon.

My advice to you is talk to a friend or friends. Don't keep it all in. That's what got me into trouble. Before you married you did not tell your future wife all of your issues. It is no different now. This was hard for me to comprehend, she's my W and the best friend I had, but trust me she no longer is my best friend.

My W thinks we're divorced since our separation, there's no marriage, it wasn't valid, etc. My W was uncomfortable that I stay at her house while my visit to see my S. Imagine this: I'm paying for her rent, utilities, child support, she's my W and I cannot even stay at her house nor even borrow her car. I have to rent a car and book a hotel room for my son and me, and she is upset that I'm spending "half of her money!" My W *hates* that she still carries my last name. She can't wait to get hers back.

What I am saying with all this is our W are saying some of the same things. Most of us do what you did, but remember, as a poster once told me, a champion is not the one who never falls but rather the one who falls AND gets up again. You goofed, OK, it's in the past learn from it don't let it happen again. Had I learned that lesson, at the very least I would feel better about myself.

Be well.

Don't beat yourself over this... there's no such thing as a perfect Plan A. Even when we think we've harmed our cause, it's rare to truly wreck things. Often times our words are not heard at first, but after time - maybe months or more - sort of sink in a bit. By showing concern and care, you're showing her that you can protect her feelings even under the worst conditions, and you give her fewer reasons to hold up her rationalizations. Keep your nose clean with her, and eventually she'll have less and less reason to be mad. If she still doesn't snap out of it, she'll be in one sorry spot at that point - I have no clue how they can function after they've lost their defensive armor (yet some of them do seem to fight on, my WW being one of them).

What is a plan A letter?

I was where your wife was until just VERY recently but I do know that right the OM is telling her all the things she wish that you'd say to her. Find out what those are and see if you can do them yourself. I let the OM take the place of hubby on that emotional level which kept the affair going longer than it should've. Doing the emotional needs questionaire would help you to find out what she needs, "The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapmen is another for finding out how to tell your spouse you love them without words.
Be patient. If she is like me the thrill of the OM will fade and die and she'll realize what she has with you. Hopefully before it's too late and you've lost everything you have with her. I wish I had come out of my fog sooner. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Another thing Steve Harley told me early on when we were counselling (I was still deep in fog then) that no one on earth offers "unconditional love". A parent comes the closest but even then it's not completely unconditional. Only God offers that kind of love. I like your wife thought I had that with the OM but that is because they are trying so hard to be everything good that we want. Saying the right things, seemingly to be the "soulmate", it's all very real at the time.
Be patient and show her love. Realize the OM is like an addiction and she is an addict that hasn't "bottomed" yet, but when she does be there to lovingly support her when she goes through withdrawls.
You sound like you have a lot of love for her. She's luckier than she knows.

Patty

Utterly,

Yeah, that is sort of what I was afraid of, that I'll be forced into a Plan B with a poor Plan A behind me. It's frustrating because all my good Plan A work over the last month got unwound in basically a 1 hour phone call. Very precarious, these things. I need to work on that patience thing a LOT more, obviously. It's interesting to see how your W and my W say a lot of the same things, yet another bunch of WS coincidences. I wish you the best with your situation as well. Sorry to hear you're soon in Plan B.

JR - Thanks for your kind words. I need to realize that I'm only human and that I am going to make mistakes like this. I was always one who shared his feelings, I hate bottling that stuff up, but I should have known better last night. Your words are very encouraging, though. I did think that as well last night, as I hardly slept. I hoped that perhaps my W was at least thinking of some of what I said, and not seeing me as some desperate man saying anything he can to win her back, but rather taking some of my R talk and processing it.

The point I tried to hammer home last night was that I didn't want her to feel pressure because I had no expectations. I just wanted her to try. I didn't want her to move back home or for us to suddenly act like a married couple again. I told her it would take time and work but that in the long run it would be worth it. I didn't want her to think I was under some false assumption that we'd get back together and life would go back to normal overnight.

I'm not sure if any of that got through, though.

Cheating - A Plan A letter is sort of like a Plan B letter except NOT starting NC. Just a loving letter to my W explaining what I did wrong in our relationship and my love for her and desire to make things better.

Patty - Hi, thank you for checking into my thread! You can't imagine how valuable hearing from someone who has been where you are is. Your insight is incredibly appreciated right now.

It's hard to find out what OM is saying and doing for my W right now since we are seperated and she doesn't talk about him at all. And gosh, I wish she'd fill out that EN questionaire but we hardly even talk, let alone sit down and spend time together to do stuff like that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, Steve saying that parents are CLOSEST to unconditional love may be why she is feeling she needs to move home with them again.

As for OM, who knows how that is going -- It sounded to me last night like she at least was coming out of the fog with that, if not, why talk about how depressed she was, or the fact that she didn't like it here and wanted to move home? But that could just be me making assumptions.

I just wish I could have been more supportive last night instead of turning into the guy trying to talk his W into giving the relationship another try again. I know that's how it came out in the end and for that I'm regretful.

But like everything else that's happened, what's done is done, now I just need to move on from that and on to the next thing. We'll see what comes next.

ALS

By the way, even though she likely won't get it until Monday, I was considering sending her one quick e-mail before stepping back into the shadows for a while, just to end things on a more upbeat tone than that second phone call.

I was just planning to write a very short note thanking her for the phone call, apologizing for the way the call went, but telling her that it was still very nice talking to her and I hope to hear from her again soon.

What does everyone think? I just think a positive sounding email might be better than disappearing after upsetting her on the phone.

ALS

ALS ... a little more than two months ago my wife stumbled across (okay, she snooped) an email exchange between me and a friend. He knows everything that's happened and is happening between me and my wife, but I digress. What she read were the words of an angry man. I was hostile and vindictive. I threatened to tell my FIL who was visting and staying with us at the time. She nearly packed her bags that day she was so mad at me. I thought I had undone everything. Of course, I knew what I wrote was a vent. In fact, my friend and I carried the conversation on while I was at work. If you've followed my updates you know where we're at now. I realize I'm rambling so I'll get to the point ... what you've described is a small setback. You've had a pretty solid Plan A to this point so there's no reason to believe that what happened last night has undone everything. It hasn't.

I also wonder how WSs manage to keep their worlds together once the armor has crumbled. What you've described sounds like that's begun for your wife. She asked for time. Give it to her. She asked for space. Give it to her. It's not unreasonable for you to ask for the same from her. She's talking about a quick divorce which scare me as much as quick marriages.

As for your quick email idea ... I can understand why you would want to do so. Damage control is valid. You tried with the follow-up call. I'm not sure what an email would accomplish that your call didn't already. Maybe sometime later next week would be better. Just my two pennies.

Hang in there. There's lots still to happen with you.

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: whippit ]</small>

ALS,

I don't think you did a bad job. Plan A is still about honesty. You were honest. You didn't really LB her. That doesn't mean she liked everything she heard. I presume the OM is still in the picture, if so then you did very well. Just remember Plan A is to convince your partner that there can be change. That you still love them, and to end the A.

Plan B has another purpose. Please read this stuff carefully. It is more subtle than you think.

Don't beat yourself up. You did fine.

God Bless,

JL

ALS,

I agree with JL. You did okay. Sometmes we need to LB and take a step back to get forward motion. Now just step back and let her come to you.

Become a little less accessible to her. Make it a challenge for her to get your time for a change. You don't have to permanenlty do this, but try the experiment. See what the results will be. if you see a change for the better, then you know what works and what doesn't.

I repeat - Do NOT send an email. Do NOT contact her. Do something completely counter intuitive.

Good Luck.

Ahhh, whippit and JL, two of my favorite people. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for checking in, and just in the nick of time, too, I was going insane today....Feeling generally depressed about the steps backward that I took last night.

In seeing the positives though, I at least made it known to W that I wasn't ready for divorce, and also got my feelings out on the table. It sort of felt like a lie NOT talking about us at all when we had our conversations. I'm sure it's on both of our minds when we talk anyway. But it certainly doesn't seem to work in this stage of the game, with A ongoing and no recovery happening. That's why I'll avoid it at all costs in the future.

Cerri and I are going to work on a short "damage control" email to send her next week. Something that I can send her at least to go out on a better note than the phone call. Then wait it out and see if she chooses to make contact again. She was warming up to me, though, I am hopeful the contact doesn't go cold and lifeless again when we DO talk, though I fear it may. I just make her too uncomfortable giving her the impression that I want to work on the M. She doesn't want me to have any hopes at all.

So whip, thanks for your story. I hope we can rebound from this as well. I've had a few setbacks like this already, the problem is my W doesn't let them go, she's even already bringing up earlier Plan A setbacks when another one happens. It's as if she remembers everything I did wrong, and nothing I did or said right.

I agree, it's not unreasonable to give her the time and space she wants, just like it's not for me to want time on the divorce. In fact, if she brings it up again, I may just have to tell it like that: Just like she needed time and space, I need some as well.

And JL - Your post made me feel a lot better, thank you. I am always very honest in my posts, what you read is what happened. I didn't get a good vibe from the call, but I'm glad that you think at least my honesty was not an LB. It made her uncomfortable and sad, sure, but I hope it made her think a little as well.

OM is still in the picture as far as I can tell, though to what degree of closeness I have no idea. The problem is my W is young, and I no longer believe she sees (or ever saw) OM as a long term thing. Just someone to be with emotionally and sexually during this tough time. I think she will leave him, especially if she is moving back home this summer, however I don't think, at this point, she is considering coming back to me an option. It's not like I'm playing against OM anymore, which is good, it's more like I'm playing against myself.

I'm hoping the A is ending or will end, still. But when it does, I don't feel I'm at a point yet where she'd want me back.

So yes, at least she knows I still love her, I still want our marriage, and that I am taking responsibility for my part in hurting our marriage. That is a good thing.

Here's hoping things get better...

ALS

I know I'm coming from a completely different perspective so remember that and take it as it is.
I know that this entire time my DH has been available emotionally and physically, until Monday, it does work on the mind of a WS. I was doing the constant compare job. It's hard not to. If the OM is sending cards and being sweet you wish that is something your hubby would've done or would do. I think that upbeat light communication just saying something simple like "I'm thinking about you today and hope you smile" or just something sweet goes a LONG way in bringing the WS mind back to reality. Tim is a poet and wrote me some of his best during this time. Always made me remember good things and it was hard to think good of OM for awhile after reading.
Making yourself not so available isn't so hot of an idea from my perspective cuz of this.... the times that I went up north to see OM it was hard the first few days. I was missing my DH. Should've told me something, huh? After a few days it was easier because he was out of contact and the OM was able to fill up my lovebank. Think about it, pray about it. Do what you think is best.
I didn't realize until yesterday how angry I was at Tim, he wasn't acting the way he should've and that's what led to my long confusion. He acted like a loving husband not what was easy when I was trying to leave. I had 2 dates set to move out and couldn't because my DH held more of my heart than I cared to admit. I didn't want to give up on something that could still be there. Still don't.
I hope you show your wife patience and love. Pull back emotionally enough so that you aren't being constantly hurt. In time, her fog will lift and she will be disallusioned with OM and if you are there as the loving supportive hubby you know that's where it's the most comfortable to turn to first when you are hurting.
Although Tim and I are now seperated he is still posting on the pregnancy board and may respond to you over there if you asked him for advice. His plan how he did this was stellar in my opinion with the exception of his ultimatums. Ultimatums during the fog aren't fair. My opinion only.
Stay focused and strong in your love.
Patty

ALS-

Man, I can feel your pain as I was in your shoes more times than I care to admit. It's especially frustrating when you have limited contact because of separation and you SO much want some clue from the WS that they're willing to atleast entertain the idea of trying. That said, it sounds like you learned something from the conversation:

"The point I tried to hammer home last night was that I didn't want her to feel pressure because I had no expectations. I just wanted her to try"

Yeah, the getting her to "try" was pressure

"The call basically ended with me again apologizing for some things I'd realized I'd done wrong in our relationship... "

"I was just planning to write a very short note thanking her for the phone call, apologizing for the way the call went"

I'm with Kily on this one and I'd suggest that you NOT communicate all of these apologies as they come across as being "needy" or "clingy". I think you're still in great shape overall, just continue to work on improving yourself and the communications you have with your W. Good luck!

Kily,

Sorry, I cross posted with you there. Thanks for your input! I wasn't sure JL was saying NOT to email, though I can see how backing off might work. Then again, maybe not too. I have sort of tried both approaches since all this started. At one point I backed off and didn't hear from her in 3 weeks. That was rough. I think a lot of it depends on her mood as well. I just hate the way things went out last night, some folks are recommending a small email as "damage control" sometime next week, then to 180 and let her come to me from that point. So at least I leave with something positive and not a bad phone call.

If I write though, like lichtfield says, I won't apologize, I'll just tell her it was nice talking to her, or something small and positive. Just so that's the lsat thing she remembers. I hate going out on a bad note.

You're right, lichtfield, I did pressure her in that regard then. I need to somehow find a way to tell her that I have hope for the M without her having to feel pressure for it to work. Maybe that's impossible. The only way it seems for her to NOT feel pressure would be for me to basically tell her I didn't want to work on M. Otherwise, it seems she feels that any contact with us, I'll see it as a chance to work on M. Tough spot to be in.

Butterfly - Thanks for checking in again. I'll have to go and look your husband up. Sorry that you are seperated right now. Looks like you have been through a lot.

I have been doing my best to keep things positive with my W, and was doing well until last night, that's why I have been so down about it. You've got a great point there, though, I need to do something to make her smile. I will remember that if I send her an email next week. I will try and say something to make her smile.

ALS

I agree with others, life does not revolve around one phone call, and you seem to grasp what you did wrong. Re the divorce issue, that is thornier, impedeing a spouses desire to divorce is a 2 edged sword. First no one has a right to impede anothers life, and if someone wants to move on, you must let them, to do anything else is trying to impose your will on their life. As frustrating as it is, wanting to be single trumps someone elses desire to keep you bound to them. Marriage requires BOTH to agree, but only one to end it. If someone really wants divorce and you refuse to legally cooperate you risk earning their permanent enmity, and rightly so. How would you feel if someone were forcing you to marry against your will, say because you got engaged or something (anc changed your mind)? I am sure you see the point. Only controlling people try to manipulate someone in these ways, all relationships can only function in a healthy manner when freely chosen it seems. On the other hand, depending on your needs, you do not have to facillitate her desire for divorce. Let her do the work if she wants it, find out the rules, file the paperwork, prepare documents for you to sign. If she does all that, then you are obligated to state your needs (honestly, no game playing) re settlement, negotiate in good faith, along the guidelines of how a judge would settle a contested divorce. In so doing you are respecting her right to control her own life, especially who she is married too. It seems quite often a ws does not do this work, and as time goes on, MB applied, affairs die etc. opportunities for reconcilliation occur, that is different than deliberately thwarting a legitimate desire for divorce by ones spouse. It is hard to figure out when to cooperate and when to stall, but clearly if someone does the paperwork and insists you cooperate, you are pretty much there. I also question this fear over divorce, if the relationship is going to work diovrce won't make any difference, people remarry.

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

I am wrestling with that decision, actually. And have been since it was first brought up.

We originally discussed a no-fault divorce right away after D-Day. I did not know about MB or think there was any other option. That was what it seemed we both wanted. Maybe even myself more than she.

Since she moved out, though, I had found MB so I left all the paperwork to her. About a week before Christmas, she emailed me to tell me she had all the paperwork filled out and wanted to get together so I can sign it.

Mind you, this is a no-fault divorce, so we are both agreeing to end the marriage, it's not one-sided and I don't really like that aspect of it, only because I don't feel I am ready to end the marriage yet.

So, last night, when the paperwork came up again for the first time in weeks, and I told her I didn't want to sign it, she did get upset -- And told me that she can't file on her own until seperated from me for 2 years. So, I was forcing her to me officially married to me for the next 2 years but she in no way was indicating that she would act as such.

I don't want her to see this as controlling, I just feel like I need more time. Would I drag this out for 2 years? No way, of course not. But I'm not even 3 months outside of D-Day yet.

So I guess what I'm wrestling with now is, if she pushes the divorce issue again, do I strongly state I am against it, but then sign anyway, telling her that although I am against it, I will not stand in her way?

I mean, after I sign, it's still 3 months until the divorce is official. I suppose at the end of those 3 months, if things still weren't looking up, I would probably be ready to quit anyway.

Tough call.

ALS

Why does she need to wait two years to file for divorce on her own?

Apparently (though I didn't look up the rule) she says she has to be seperated with me for 2 years before she can file on her own in this state.

I'm not sure how true that is, that seems unrealistic. Unless it's because she has no real good reason to file since she is the WS.

At any rate, I think she also knows filing at-fault would mean lawyers, incredibly high costs that she can't afford (she can barely pay her bills now), etc. It would be a real mess.

I guess the bottom line is that if she wants it that bad, what do I have to gain by dragging my feet?

I'm seriously thinking now that the next time she brings it up, I may just give her my honest opinion, that I don't want it, but also tell her that because I care about her and want her to be happy, if that's what she wants, I will give her the divorce because I don't want to come off as controlling.

I realize it could mean the end of the marriage, if she lets it go through after the 3 month "cooling off" period, but if things aren't going better by then, I think I'd be at the end of my rope anyway.

ALS

Aha, found it.

She can file no-fault on her own, without my consent, if we are living seperately for 2 years. That's what she was looking at. If I agree to sign, she can file no-fault any time.

She didn't even consider filing at-fault I guess, due to the cost and legal obligations. If she wanted to file at-fault, she could do that anytime, but she doesn't have the funds to do so.

There ya have it.

ALS

Aye. There's the rub.