Yep -- So I guess that's what she was saying there. She knows her divorce law, though, she's obviously been looking it up. That's sort of a depressing thought.

So I'm still left with a tough choice, be a jerk and make her wait, which she'd certainly see as controlling, or just sign under protest the next time she asks about it.

ALS

Well - you could do a combination of both.

Give me (time period here) months to get in a better emotional place and then we will readress the issue.

ALS-

Our situations are quite similar, down to the D-Days (2 days apart). We are a few years older than you, and have also been married for 8 years. But everything you have been through is eerily similar to me...

For the first couple of months I did everything wrong that I could have done. I initially approached it that my wife was wrong, how could she do this, I love her, why won't she try, blah, blah, blah. I also wrote her love letter after love letter, thinking if I professed my love she would reconsider and want me back- sort of the guilt method. Of course none of this has worked.

We haven't seen each other in 2+ months and haven't spoken in over a month. Our contact is strictly e-mail and usually pretty much about financial matters. But at least it is cordial if nothing else.

I haven't had a conversation with my wife as I said, but in e-mails she has been "somewhat" positive. But I am taking that with a grain of salt, the positive has been more "I don't want a divorce, I need time" more than anything else. But she did say, and I have since completely backed off, that my letters and e-mails were "pressure" to her. I am not sure as to why, I really don't understand what she is doing. But as others on this board can attest, there is no rhyme or reason to an affair. It is the "fog" as we have all come to know that makes them do what they do.

Anyway, what is my point? My opinion, as one who is at the exact same stage as you, DO NOT SEND AN E-MAIL. It will do you absolutely no good at this stage. It will only be seen as "pressure" despite your best intentions. My wife has promised to contact me the last week of January to "see where we are at". That basically means "I don't know what I want to do, can't make you any promises, so you do what you have to do." I will wait until she does so, but I will not contact her any longer prior to her next contact with me.

If you feel the need to send an e-mail wait a few weeks, wait a month. But sending one this soon will without question turn your wife off or have ZERO positive effect. She will let you know when she is coming out of the fog, she knows how you feel. Do not push her away if/when she does contact you, but do not pursue her at this point. I promise you, as one who is side by side with you at this time, all you can do is wait and pray- BUT DO NOT CONTACT HER ANYMORE FOR NOW!!!!

Best of luck, I truly share your pain.....

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: sadinaz ]</small>

I'm sorry to hear things are going this way ALS. I think Kily has an interesting idea, could open the way for more negotiating. Have you asked Cerri what she thinks yet? All in all I don't think you did to badly. Everyone's allowed to slip once in a while. Like I said, I could tell you some real Plan A horror stories if you've got a few hours <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

MTD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
<strong>be a jerk and make her wait, which she'd certainly see as controlling</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree.

Making her wait until you're ready is not being a jerk.

Yep, she may see it as controlling. Who knows what she sees from orbit? Re-read Rule # 1. You are not dealing with a rational person. (I've written that a lot lately <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) Could be she already sees you as public enemy number 1. Yea, that's it!! You're a jerk anyway, you selfish scum bag! You're denying her her true happiness in LaLa Land!!

So, while I agree with the substance of Lurking's views, I do not necessarily agree that your wife has the cognitive rationality to process all this in the way Lurking has presented. She is subject to gross rationalization. I could be very wrong, though.

I suggest that when she presents the papers, you review everything with your attorney to see if you are protected fairly. Then take as long as you like before you sign. Just tell her you're not ready until you are.

It's been more than just a few times that former WSs have posted here humbly thankful that their BSs didn't willingly participate with the divorce they (the WSs) initiated.

WAT

ALS:

"She got upset and basically told me that she couldn't get a divorce on her own until she was living apart from me for 2 years, and if that was what I wanted, fine, we can be married for 2 years but then she is filing."

Sorry for making light of this sitch, but look on the bright side! She's giving you 2 years to rebuild! Seriously, you didn't do so bad here. You don't want a DV, so you shouldn't feel obligated to help her hurry one up.

"She also said that we're not really married, she doesn't live here anymore and we never talk."

yada yada yada. This is fog nonsense, and you, of course, know it.

"She feels that all guys are the same, that after a couple of years they become complacent in a relationship and stop contributing to it emotionally. I admitted I was guilty of this and explained to her what I learned. But she expressed that she had no way of knowing it wouldn't happen again and I understood that."

You know? This is exactly what my W has said to me, and she uses it as an excuse to stay in touch with her OM. Keeping him in the wings in case I don't measure up. Well, we all tend to do that. And it's not too hard to make the argument that getting complacent is somewhat less an infraction than choosing to have an A as a reaction, rather than try to correct the situation or get a DV.

Don't beat yourself up, ALS. I LB'd a heckuva lot more and worse than you have for about 6 months after D-day. And that's the point, once again. This is still very new. Neither of you have any idea how it may play out over the next several months. You, at least, are getting an education in the process. I wish the WS were.

Take care,
-Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T-zero:
<strong>And it's not too hard to make the argument that getting complacent is somewhat less an infraction than choosing to have an A as a reaction...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW!!

I kiss you feet, T-zero. And Mel for her quote on another thread. You guys are awesome.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
[QBCould be she already sees you as public enemy number 1. Yea, that's it!! You're a jerk anyway, you selfish scum bag! You're denying her her true happiness in LaLa Land!!
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure, WAT, you have been told a number of times how right you are and how right on the money you are. Get this, I'm helping my W financially until she finds a job and do you know what my MIL told me my W feels about that? By supporting her, I am controlling her. Do you want to know what they told me when I did not support her? I left her out on the street.

My W wants me to give her more space and to stop controlling her. I've hardly talked to her for a few weeks now and she's about 1500 miles away! When I told her I could not support her financially if she were to return to the midwest because I may be out of a job this spring, she went nuts, I'm controlling her and so forth. Truth of the matter? There are many obstacles for her to be with the OM and so she blames them on me.

ALS, my friend, we are in a tough spot, you and I and a lot of others in this site, but you know what, even if you slipped, you are a great person to be admired for wanting to save your M. You are fighting for what you know is right and what you believe in and that shows a lot of character.

Be well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by utterlyconfused:
<strong>Get this, I'm helping my W financially until she finds a job and do you know what my MIL told me my W feels about that? By supporting her, I am controlling her. Do you want to know what they told me when I did not support her? I left her out on the street.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You got it, brother.

No matter what, we're controlling scumbags. Maybe we should start a union.

IBCS

International Brotherhood of Controlling Scumbags

Maybe there's enough of us to form a health plan? Free anti-depressants?

WAT

UC:

"My W wants me to give her more space and to stop controlling her. I've hardly talked to her for a few weeks now and she's about 1500 miles away! "

Hm... ...let's see. You COULD do better, you know? After all, the Earth is about 8000 miles in diameter, and if you take into account the fact that it's rather difficult to go right THROUGH it, you COULD get as much as about 12,453 miles away from her by moving to her antipode (you can look that up, but I think you see what I mean). And as for giving her more space? Well, if you send her UP about 150 miles or so, she'll have only the ISS to share her room with!

But, that would probably be controlling, huh?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-Qfwfq

WAT, T-zero, you guys crack me up.

For the women reading this, does your WH complain about control from you?

Wow, this topic got way out of hand, didn't it!?!?!

Just to answer back some of the comments early in the day, and to say thanks to all of you for your kindness and confidence.

I guess the big picture of last night's phone call was this: My wife learned that I still wanted the M and wasn't giving up or moving on, and I learned my wife still didn't want the M and wasn't giving up OM or considering any reconciliation. So it was frustrating in the fact that, 3 months later, we've basically gone nowhere. It was like day one all over again. So that's the sadness I'm dealing with this weekend. I was making small progress and I feel like I may have thrown it all away.

Kily, not a bad idea to ask her for time, though I hate to put a final date on it...If I tell her 2 months, she'll hold me to that, and there's no telling how I'll feel in 2 months. I do know I can't do this forever, but I still don't feel I'm ready to set a final divorce date or anything like that. What's frustrating is that I don't see W changing at all, and even if it DOES sound like she may leave OM, it doesn't sound like she'd come back to me. She makes it sound like she'd rather be on her own than with me, and that really hurts.

Sadinaz - Thank you for your advice. I am truly thinking over what you said. My counselor, Cerri, who has been most helpful so far, has been suggesting a short e-mail before "going dark" for a bit just so I leave my W with a good impression. Not a mail to beg forgiveness, just something light. I will tell her what you said though and get her opinions.

You have a good point in that writing her won't bring her out of the fog, though, and not pursuing.

MTD: Thank you, I'm glad you think I didn't do that badly. I just feel bad about making her cry, and still feel that she does more crying about her financial situation than about us. When she talks about being broke is when the tears always start. And then I get caught up in the emotion and start into the heavy R talk, how I'm learning, how there's hope for us, etc etc. I hear myself saying it and know it's wrong but I can't stop. I must STOP doing that! It just doesn't work. My logic tells me it should but everything I read here says it doesn't, and of course, that's correct!

WAT - What if I don't have an attorney? The idea was to go through this no fault divorce without attorneys. Any idea how much of an attorney's time I'd need to look over no fault divorce papers?

And I truly hope that my W might one day be thankful that I didn't willingly pursue this divorce. What set her off in all of this was when I said "I am still your husband". That did not sit well with her at all. It's a shame that she feels like we are no longer married. Like living apart and not talking make a marriage go away. T-Zero is right, fog nonsense, but it's what she needs to believe to justify her ongoing A, I'm sure.

T-Zero: You're right, at least I stood firm on the Dv issue. I just wish I'd have left it at that instead of getting into deep R talk again.

Of course having an A is so much worse than anything I did to get complacent in our marriage. But it would be a LB for me to tell her that now, right? So I bit my tongue there and took all of the blame. I'm not sure how it's sounding to W when I continually tell her I realize what my mistakes were now and that I am learning to correct those. I guess it's like they say, actions speak louder than words, and my words just don't mean anything to her.

Utterly: Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate it. I do feel like I am doing the right thing in trying to save my M, I just wish I knew those magical words to say to my W to convince her that my intentions are true and pure. It's frustrating when I hear things from her that indicate nothing is changing. I need to be MUCH more patient, I really do.

Anyway, more later I'm sure. Thanks everyone for your support. Today was a pretty low day for me but you all made it better. I appreciated talking to you about this and I'm sure I'll have more to say as the weekend goes on.

ALS

hey ALS... you out there?

C

Cerri! Fancy seeing you here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Are you still around? I am here!

ALS

working on site.... very slow and very evil computer/intennet.... what are you doing up so late?

Wait..... I KNOW what you're doing.... you're composing more emails to send to your favorite email coach.... many versions of said email to keep her on her toes... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Need any help with anything? I was about to go turn in, actually, was up watching a couple movies with a friend of mine, sort of a traditional Friday thing since D-Day.

Then tomorrow I have another friend visiting and Sunday a family event. Going to be another full weekend but I like them that way (though it doesn't allow me to get a lot of chores done around the house, it does keep my mind off my situation a bit, though not as much as I wish!)

I sent you a lot of e-mail today by the way, sorry. Hope you'll have the chance to look at that e-mail to W tomorrow sometime so we can go over it before next week rolls in.

ALS

Yes, I am sending WAY too many emails to my favorite e-mail coach. Not to keep her on her toes as much as it's just my mind constantly coming up with more and more thoughts. It tends to get overactive (and often irrational) late at night.

Latest thought -- W said she got very upset by Plan A letter delivered to her at work, also upset at R talk on phone last night. Both said similar things, that I still had faith in us and our marriage. I wonder if her fright and sadness are just defense mechanisms or reactions of some sort? For some reason, I really do feel like she WANTS me to give up just because it would make everything so much easier for her.

ALS

Could ya write a couple of articles for me? And maybe do all the posting since that seems to take far more time than the actual writing? LOL

Hey.... you could find out for me what Microsoft says is the necessary memory to run XP... Dell is telling me it's 512M......four TIMES the memory they told me I needed when I bought the evil computer.

By the way, Cerri, you need to get an instant messenger of some sort. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />