I just got this cell phone call from my WS.

WS (Crying): "You need to go ahead and give me up. I just can't do right. I came to (city) and talked to (good friend) for a little while and I am so embarassed."

Me: "I'm not going to give you up. I made a vow for life."

WS: "You're such a good person. You don't deserve this."

Me: "Tell me the truth. I'm not going to get mad. Are you with her?"

WS: "No, I'm NOT with her."

Me: "I went by her house and she is not home."

WS: (softly) "I'm not with her"

Me: "Then I'll come to you".

WS: "No what I really need to do is to come to you to talk".

Me: "I want you to really come. Don't wait until tomorrow. I'll worry."

WS: "If I'm not there in an hour and a half, then I'll see you tomorrow"

Me: "Please call me if you are not coming."

Hang up. His cell phone is turned off.

OK, You Guys. What's going on? This is different. He's acknowledging that what he is doing is wrong. I guess because he did not have any justification for leaving today. Thursday night absolutely would not talk about the A. I had found out about the apartment.

What's my response either tonight or in the morning? Do I explain to him the MB principals-- that he is in a fog, like an alcoholic, etc. Steve Harley told me a "teacher can't teach if there are no students". Is he ready to learn?

We have the issue of me being too much of a know-it-all.

I think I should be there for him to help him through the pain. Wonder if he really is with the OW? What has been her contribution to this?

I want to hear YOUR THOUGHTS AND SUGGESTIONS.

What a roller-coaster ride!!!!

Hi:

No do not try to educate him. I think we do not realize how deep our WS are in this thing. Sometimes they have moments of clarity but not too often.

My WS cried over phone one night. But he was crying because he and OW had a fight. He was not crying for me. But he did call me and tell me not to communicate with her. made me promise.lol

A week later he flew to another country to see her, have sex (unprotected) and fly back to me and anounce to me that he wanted us both.lol She in turn announced she was pregnant.

Don't teach. Listen and be fully aware of the fog. What he says will hurt. Keep your opinions to yourself. He knows what he is doing is wrong. Hope this helps. Take care. wu

The OW's car is at a house in her neighborhood where there are a lot of cars. MB he's mad because she is at a party.

However, this is the first time he has admitted to me that what he is doing is wrong. That's why I am so surprised. He has been insisting that his A was justified by my failures--things I really need to work on in my PLAN A.

What is your take on him asking me to let him go?

He may be reassuring himself that you are still there for him.

He may be wrestling with his desire to go to OW- and he's warning you to give up because he'll hurt you.

It's very good that he recognizes what he's doing is wrong.

The rollercoaster ride is not over yet.

Have you found out if he rented the apartment or not?

Hi Espoir:

My WS has already hurt me to the core. I can't see how it can get any worse. Just by him betraying me at all has been devastating as I am sure you understand. I'm thankful to hear him SAY OUT LOUD for the first time that he recognizes that he has hurt me.

At least he is not with her tonignt. I just checked again to make sure she is at the same place. I know I'm obsessive. I just had to know.

I'm concerned that my WS will change his tune by morning time. He did not come home after all.

What are your thoughts about my response to him tomorrow?

Hi Mimi,

Wucus is right. Its a bad idea to try and educate them or push them into anything. I don't know what is going on with him, but it sounds like the fog is starting to break and some reality is setting in. Just keep on doing what you are doing and let him lead the way for now. No love busting, just listening to him and showing him you love him and will forgive him.

I suspect that you have him VERY CONFUSED right now, because you are starting to meet needs that the OW has been meeting. You are pulling him back towards you. And because you haven't been lovebusting him, you have removed all of his rationalizations and reality is flooding in. I hope that is what is happening. Just keep doing what you are doing and don't PANIC.

<small>[ January 11, 2003, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Mimi, if you have AOL or AIM, you can IM me if you want at Melodylanester.

What do you make of "you need to go ahead and GIVE ME UP"? What's my response given his CONTROL issues? It's up to him rignt? I'm not in CONTROL of his actions although he's trying to give me CONTROL.

I think he might have had a fight with the OW. Thinking back there was a tone to "I'm not with HER". She's probably mad about him not moving into the apartment which he insists that he did not sign the lease on YET.

He has consistently wanted me to ask him to leave, unable to leave on his own. That's what he needs to do RIGHT? Even though it seems that he wants to go should he do it on his own?

I'm thinking that he is saying that he can't give up the OW right now but does not know how to leave me.

I'm not planning to help him with how to leave but I'm not going to beg him to stay.

I feeling sad that my H has fallen out of love with me. He used to love me immensely. I wish I could have done ST before it was too late. Why was I so blind and could not see? I took him so much for granted.

I will have to figure out how to go on without him.

I welcome any words of wisdom and/or comfort at this time.

He might be asking you to give him up so that then he wouldn't have to feel guilty in continueing his A. After all if you do it, he can rationalize it in his mind that YOU left him, when he really was the one who left you by having the A. It makes it easier on him. Sounds like your plan A is having some effect, keep it up.

Mimi,

I wouldn't help him make a decision to leave. Just keep telling him you love him and don't want to lose him but if he wants to leave that has to be his choice. I don't think he has fallen out of love with you, he is just momentarily diverted because he is getting his needs met somewhere else. You are changing that by meeting his needs, hence all the confusion.

And that is really GOOD if he and the OW had a fight! That means SHE is lovebusting him. Of course, he hasn't really said what happened, but that would be very good if it were the case.

Did he come home last night?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>What do you make of "you need to go ahead and GIVE ME UP"?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A typical statement by WSs who want to be kicked out the door, I think. But in some cases, like mine, when my WS said this is was with hopes that I would be the one to separate, file, etc. so she could say I was the initiator. In other cases, perhaps yours, the WS is in pain and confused and saying this is in self pity. JMHO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What's my response given his CONTROL issues? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think your response should be sonething like, "I want to try to solve our issues and make a better marriage, when you're ready. Steve can help us with a plan. I'll be ready when you are."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's up to him rignt? I'm not in CONTROL of his actions although he's trying to give me CONTROL. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it's up to him. You want him to come of his own decision, right? You don't want him give up OW just because you want him to, right? I disagree that he's trying to give you control. I think he's rebelling from control. WSs are very short sighted - he may want you to make a short time decision because he doesn't want to do it - give him up/kick him out. But I don't think for a second this is because he wants to be controlled by you.

mimi, I need to be blunt. We know you are very hurt and confused. But I detect you want all of this to turn out your way right NOW! I detect you want to dictate the course of this thing. You haven't yet accepted that there is very little you can do right now. Forget about OW, forget about trying to determine if he's with her or not, forget about trying to figure out what's going on in his head. It's all mixed up in there and the next minute it'll be different!

Right now, I think you are your own worst enemy.

This is a way, perhaps, that your conversation with him could have been more productive:

Me: "I'm committed to working on our marriage."

WS: "You're such a good person. You don't deserve this."

Me: "We both deserve the best marriage we can have."

Then the conversation would have NOT gone done the wrong path talking about whether he was with OW or not and you demanding that he call you. I know you didn't demand this, but that is likely the way it felt to him.

You're still trying to control him by asking about his whereabouts and dictating when he has to call you. Please try to resist this temptation. Yes, you have every right to expect this information, but you cannot expect it in his current state of mind.

Understand?

WAT

ditto to firefly.

However, I don't completely agree with wucus. You can educate them- but you have to do it carefully and subtly.

During the A, I read alot of stuff aloud to my H to help both of us figure out what was going on. I read to him from Wallerstein- the effects of divorce on children. There's some stuff where she talks about how when the father leaves, the children never again see him as "the head of the household". This definitely affected my H and woke him up. He thought he'd leave for a summer and check out the OW, without thinking about the effect on the kids- that he would damage their perception of him irrevocably. Reading the information to him from a book woke him up to that.

I also asked him some pointed questions that made him think. I knew he didn't want more kids. A friend of mine's H had an A, got the OW pregnant, and felt he had to divorce, and marry her. I reminded H that if he got her pregnant he might face the same difficult choice. My H claimed OW didn't want kids. I spoke to OW and found out she did. So I discussed this with my H.

I don't know if it was "education". But more like my H had to face reality- that if he left to be with this woman, he would eventually be back to changing diapers. My H hooked up with her while he was travelling for work. He was envisioning a playmate for his work, not a wife #2 staying home with a new baby. I don't know if I was "educating" him, but I kept trying to introduce reality into his thoughts.

It's also important to remind them that it is possible to save your M, that you do love him, that you can forgive him, but that the two of you together will have to restructure your M so that the conditions that helped make the A possible no longer exist.

Is that education? I don't know. Is it a reality check? Yes. You have to be careful, you can't lecture or make belittling comments.

Just remember, this is all a learning experience, and your relationship will never be the same. Mine is not. but I feel stronger today then ever before. Because of the experience. He is feeling guilty as hell. And don't beg him. that is the worst thing you can do. Let him think you might not be their later on, know this part is hard as hell, but must to done. Wish him well and do not judge him.

If i suspected my wife was moving on without me I would stop and think. If he knows you will always be there, then hell, he will keep screwing around. Change your tactics 180 degrees, and he will notice. Careless, but never give your approval. that will make him hold the guilt.

WAT and MELODYLANE:

I certainly am learning about my need for control. You're right. I just want to FIX IT. It seems that Steve picked up on this too.

My anxiety makes me want to DO SOMETHING. I feel like I can't just sit around here and wait. It makes me feel crazy.

I think my H is having a difficult time making a decision to leave and he may be trying to make it so aversive for him to be here that I will ask him to leave. It's like he doesn't know how to go ahead and leave on his own. Also, I think you guys may be rignt about him not wanting to be seen as the initiator. All of his friends are giving him a hard time about wanting to leave and he is a proud person who likes to please. As he said, he is "embarassed" now.

If he doesn't leave and it becomes hard to bear him around here, particularly with my 16 year old, I should go to PLAN B, right?

I don't know what is happening yet. No, he did not come home.

Another problem I have is always trying to figure things out. It seems to help me cope if I can come to an understanding. Its hard to believe that that is not possible in this case. In many ways, my H is so much like himself but he is really not himself.

WAT-
I am confused about the "asking about his whereabouts" issue. Don't you think he called because he knew that I would be concerned about his whereabouts? I forgot that he also said,as usual, "I didn't want you to worry about me". What do you mean by I can't ask him this question in his "current state of mind"? By "state of mind" are you referring to the FOG or are you referring to him seeing me as trying to control him? I really appreciate you being candid with me. Not a problem!

Thanks to all of you for being there!!!

I should have more clearly said, "foggy state of mind."

Regarding the "whereabouts" thing, my point was that I believe you should not ncessarily ask ( = demand ) to call you, tell you where he's going, or tell you when he's gonna be home. Of course it's reasonable for you to do this, but in some situations, such as your conversation, you should defer. When things are less "heavy", i.e. when an emotional "bleeding" isn't in progress, sure, converse as you normally would, but still avoid "controlling" questions.

Ask, "Should I expect you in time for dinner?" instead of "Please call me if you are not coming."

See the difference?

Regarding espoir's advice. Please be very, very, very, very careful. I'm glad it worked for her to read stuff to her spouse, but mine and many others would run like hell with anything close to that. OF COURSE when a spouse is ready, this is a no-brainer. But it's the "ready" part that is difficult to judge. I suggest that for "educating" you wait for a clear signal from your spouse before trying. Leave the books out in the open and perhaps he'll pick one up on his own. Even then, don't "help." Let him ask for it first. JMHO.

WAT

I concur with WAT about educating him. That kind of thing is a love buster to him.

Mimi, when my H left me, one thing that helped alleviate my anxiety immensely was working out. I did some of my best workouts around that time because for that hour I could lose myself in exercise and take a break from my life. It also produces serotonin, which will help calm you down some.

I realize that a great deal of your anxiety comes from not being to control the situation. That is the hardest part, Mimi, learning to just stand back and get out of the way. But, it can be done and it is for the best.

As far as going into Plan B, I would wait to see what Harley says about it to ensure that you do it right. If its done WRONG, it can cause more damage. So please just wait and see what he says.

Thanks All:

He hasn't come home yet. I keep telling myself "There's NOTHING I can do".

Will keep you posted.

In regards to education, doesn't someone need to tell him that his behavior is out of control and he is being self-destructive OR does need to learn this the hard way? Then, it might be too late.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>In regards to education, doesn't someone need to tell him that his behavior is out of control and he is being self-destructive OR does need to learn this the hard way? Then, it might be too late.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi,
That depends on the student and the teacher. Right now you are not the right teacher. Let someone else tell him. It may not be given to him with the same amount of love you have tried to give him but it will probably be swallowed better. Why???? Because in the fog the family's love is perceived as a bad thing so nothing you say or do will be 'good' in their foggy eyes.

JMHO,
L.