I started this in "Just Found Out" but after the response from my wife last night I figured I might get more advice or input here. I think I'm about to go crazy.

At this point I feel that I am supposed to believe the worst, not deny it to myself, but pretend it never happened, not just the EA but all of our problems, and go on with life.

The Story So Far

Vent! Vent! Vent! Blah......I think I LB'ed big time tonight.

My wife met with her IC today. They think I read to much and try to apply to much logic to everything. She has been meeting with this lady since early September and the final results.

We are where we are in our marriage due to years of emotional neglect

And a large part of that is very true as I arrived in this marriage with tons of preconceived ideas as to what a marriage was supposed to be, most of which was incorrect. Now I have made changes, understand what a good marriage is supposed to be like and the best my wife can say is, I'm not going anywhere. Well maybe a bit more and a little more on the positive side. Sunday I did ask her that if I could assure her that her and the childrens financial future was secure would she leave the marriage? After about five minutes of thinking she replied, I could not say yes to that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> A bit more hopeful than the frist answer.

So how did I LB? I attempted to get her to agree to a NC with the OM. Now bear in mind, if you go back and read the conversation I overheard between her and her best friend. This conversation was repeated verbatim to her IC on October 8. Her IC gave both of us a basic depression test. My wife scored a -33, which supossedly equated to severly depressed, I was a 7 which was blue. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> That only lasted till Thursday where I then felt I was probably futher down that a -33. D-Day was October 7. But.......the weird thing is, or at least weird to me, she states that her IC has never mentioned this OM again. I asked my wife about this again last week and even asked her to ask her IC about how the emotional presence of another man would affect the marriage. Her response today, her IC wanted to know if I understood that she was there for individual counseling and marriage therapy. Duh! How to you help someone recover or restore their marriage when there is an OM in the picture. And it was her IC who told me about "His Needs, Her Needs", which of course led me here.

But back to the NC request. My wife would not agree to something that she might break. I assured her that simply agreeing to attempt NC with confirmation from her if it was broke would go a long way with me and this emotional rollercoaster I was on. She then stated that what she was fixing to say would probably be taken wrong by me but that she preceived me asking for her cell phone detail, asking her for NC, and notification of contact as a control issue. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I can understand how you would feel that way but I really not see it as a control issue. In July 2002 you told me that you had lost trust and respect for me due to financial problems we had in 1998. How do I prove to you that I am trustworthy in that area. You can see for yourself as the bill collectors are no longer calling. I show you the checkbook and tell you which bills were paid, what is due. If you have any questions about any of the checks or money I openly and honestly answer you questions. On October 7 I lost trust in you do to a friendship with OM that I did not know about. You say that everybody knew about it but you do not want me to talk to OM's wife or share this knowledge with your parents. I see it as simply providing information as to where you are and what you are doing. It really has nothing to do with control but has a lot to do with trust.

But, as the LB'ing conversation continued, she stated that she keeps thinking and trying to do and come up with things that would prove or make me feel better emotionally. Man did I hose this one up! A little remorse in the pain that you caused me. An inkling somewhere in your mind that the boundaries you crossed were wrong. That the friendship you had with this OM is not the values that we want to instill in our children. Prehaps you coming to me as I came to you, crying and in tears for the pain and anguish that I caused you and asked your forgivness. I could not tell if any of that sank in but there appeared to be just a slight hint of something in her facial expressions, but then she explained that she felt that she had not done that becuase we were basically in different areas of the game at this time. Different areas, do you think that we could at least get on the same field instead of different ballparks. And then she commented that maybe she did not know that it was wrong, or maybe she did not know what it was. That comment really floored me.

So I guess I now pose the following questions?

What kind of IC would know about the presence of a OM and never address it?

What are the odds of all the details listed in the thread resulting in only a platonic friendship? No, I am not in denial, just a silly question.

Just how many withdrawals did I make tonight?

Probably a ton more but my mind is on overload right now so I'll quit asking.

Just a few thoughts here. Due to the way that my wife was raised, the moral values that were taught to her by her parents, the Christian values that were instilled her and the example that her parents continue to set for us and others. Knowing that by nature she is a conflict avoider at all cost. To admit to herself that she was ever involved in a relationship like this totally contradicts everything that she was taught and at one time believed in would totally destroy her. But, to not admit and carry this all inside of her will also destroy her.

My real concern for her now is health related. She just always appears to be completly exhausted now. Her mother even asked me the other day if my W appeared to be more tired than usual. I said that yes she did. She can close her eyes almost anytime of the day and be asleep in seconds, but when she wakes up she is constantly yawning and making comments about how tired she is, even after 9 hours of sleep.

trusting,

Have you considered going into counseling with the Harleys?

I can't help but wonder if you aren't prolonging her escape from the fog by pressuring her. For example, no contact must be a voluntary eventuality. If pressured, it only puts her into a defensive posture that makes contact even MORE desirable.

I think it has the same effect when you point out the flaws in her logic. It simply serves to make her defensive and pushes her further FROM YOU towards the OM.It makes the OM look more attractive. If you back off and help her feel SAFE, she will lose that defensive posture.

Once the defensive posture is gone, then she can start thinking. But as long as she is defending herself, the longer she will rationalize [ie" defend] her actions and the farther away she is from doing some honest self analysis. She does know right from wrong and I am certain she knows this is wrong. But as long as she feels under assault, she will probably continue to make excuses and rationalizations.

Right now she has cut off contact with the OM because of the pressure from you. What will she do if this pressure is removed? Will she then decide ON HER OWN that the relationship is wrong and needs to end? There are so many problems inherent in the relationship that one can't help but wonder. But right now he looks pretty darn attractive compared to a husband is lovebusting every day.

The above suggestions are all part of a good Plan A. Another part is determining her emotional needs [do you know what they are?] and trying to fulfill them. The idea is to quit lovebusting and become the person she fell in love with. Plan A is not forever, but it is essential if you have to move to Plan B. And you may well have to do that.

Also, have you apprised his wife of all this? What about the church officials?

<strong>But back to the NC request. My wife would not agree to something that she might break.</strong>
Utter Bull of course. A lame excuse for her to continue the affair. Think of similar situation.... trying to stop to smoke and you tell yourself: what the hell, I might take it up one day again, so why stop in the first place?

<strong> What kind of IC would know about the presence of a OM and never address it? </strong>

If it's a MC, then he is a clear failure. For an IC it's just strange... maybe they are talking other issues? or maybe they talk about it, but she doesnt want to tell you?

<strong> She just always appears to be completly exhausted now. </strong>
Of course.... leading a double life, juggling these questions always is very exhausting. Check the articles by Harley on this site - he writes that many WS are absolutely torn back and fro, and are sometimes even contemplating suicide. It's a serious issue - the more a reason for this situation to stop.

Are you doing what is called a plan A?

MelodyLane --

Have you considered going into counseling with the Harleys? Yes, but per her IC yesterday, they do not feel that she is ready for joint counseling.

I can't help but wonder if you aren't prolonging her escape from the fog by pressuring her. While I do LB ocassionally it has been severly limited. I try really hard not to pressure her but at times I am at my wits ends. Her defensive attitude is almost gone, per her words. She states that she does feel much more comfortable at home now. I guess my frustration stems from the fact I was meeting her needs long before I was aware of the OM. No affection, no conversation sans family talk since back in July. When I learned of the OM in October I confronted each of them. My IC said I just needed to make changes in me and let my wife see those. That is what I have tried to do. His words were if my wife wanted to get on my wagon and ride she could. The question was, how long could I last in that type of enviroment.


I think it has the same effect when you point out the flaws in her logic. It simply serves to make her defensive and pushes her further FROM YOU towards the OM.It makes the OM look more attractive. If you back off and help her feel SAFE, she will lose that defensive posture.

All true, and trust me when I say I am trying.

But right now he looks pretty darn attractive compared to a husband is lovebusting every day.

Well not everyday. Just more so lately. I can actually count them I think. October 25, December 15, January 7, and January 14. Outside of those dates I was pretty much calm and just riding along trying not to rock the boat. The 7th stemmed from the fact that she contacted the OM again and I guess I got scared. I thought we had done so well for the last 2 months.

Another part is determining her emotional needs [do you know what they are?] and trying to fulfill them. She has not filled out an ENQ yet but she has the papers. I have a good idea as to her needs and have been filling those to the best that she will allow.

The idea is to quit lovebusting and become the person she fell in love with. Plan A is not forever, but it is essential if you have to move to Plan B. And you may well have to do that.

I know the LB'ing has to quit. I was just floored with her response yesterday that I really blew it. That stems from a fear of my wife. She is great at making friends. I am really afraid that she and her IC have become more friends than an IC and counselee should be. She even gave her a Christams present and yesterday took her some homemade cookies.

Also, have you apprised his wife of all this? What about the church officials?

His wife? No. Church Officials? Yes. The pastors response was that it needed to be kept quite. His second response was that without a commitiment from my wife for recovery I was basically chasing a wild goose. I feel that as long as she sees the OM, I will not get a commitment from her.

Nick123--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it's a MC, then he is a clear failure. For an IC it's just strange... maybe they are talking other issues? or maybe they talk about it, but she doesnt want to tell you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, but she sure had me fooled and even her best friend about her true feelings for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you doing what is called a plan A?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Trying and learning more each day since July 29 of last year.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by trusting her:
<strong>MelodyLane --

Have you considered going into counseling with the Harleys? Yes, but per her IC yesterday, they do not feel that she is ready for joint counseling.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

They also don't feel it's necessary to talk about the PROBLEM, ie: the OM. It would be an ENORMOUS help to you to get counseling from Steve Harley, you can start out alone. He could break through this logjam and is often quite skilled in getting a reluctant spouse into counseling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well not everyday. Just more so lately. I can actually count them I think. October 25, December 15, January 7, and January 14. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are documenting your lovebusters?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His wife? No. Church Officials? Yes. The pastors response was that it needed to be kept quite. His second response was that without a commitiment from my wife for recovery I was basically chasing a wild goose. I feel that as long as she sees the OM, I will not get a commitment from her.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree you will not get a committment from her as long as she is in contact with him. But why wouldn't you tell his wife what is going on? She can be a great aide in ending this relationship, not to mention that she has a MORAL RIGHT to know. The last person this should be kept FROM is his OWN WIFE. She needs to know that he DOES NOT have her best interest at heart so she can take steps to protect herself and her children from him.

Also, Harley feels like the BS should do everything possible to end the relationship. And that means we DO NOT protect them from the consequences of the A. He suggests doing everything short of taking out a billboard. Exposure often serves to quickly end an affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by trusting her:
<strong>

I know the LB'ing has to quit. I was just floored with her response yesterday that I really blew it. That stems from a fear of my wife. She is great at making friends. I am really afraid that she and her IC have become more friends than an IC and counselee should be. She even gave her a Christams present and yesterday took her some homemade cookies.

[/i]</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is her IC one of those feel good counselors that pretty much condones anything and everything? The ones that lower standards to accomodate bad behavior instead of improving behavior to accomodate a standard?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are documenting your lovebusters?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really, it's just that my memory tends to hang onto numbers and other things. I guess an annoying habit for my wife. She absoutely hates it. Her statement is how in the world can anybody remember that much. Duh! I do not know, it just sorta sticks up there by itself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But why wouldn't you tell his wife what is going on? She can be a great aide in ending this relationship, not to mention that she has a MORAL RIGHT to know. The last person this should be kept FROM is his OWN WIFE. She needs to know that he DOES NOT have her best interest at heart so she can take steps to protect herself and her children from him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To an extent I avoid conflict too. Just not as much as my wife. I am learning to step up to the plate better but I am still scared of this. Scared? Yes, there is a part of me that still wants to believe that it was only a friendship. My IC laughs at me for that and tells me to quit accepting all the blame. I have done that, but I do not think that I have gotten my emotions in line with my decision. I am scared of hurting her, my heart is the size of the state of Texas. I am scared of causing her embrassment and shame. I am scared of the reality of that decision. But.......I almost did the other day after the OM said that he would back off but on the condition that I tell my wife I called him and asked him to. Biggest reason, I am scared to and have no idea how to do it and keep my composure

PLEASE have a heart and tell her what is happening in her life. Put her needs before your fears and do it on principle. You say you don't want to hurt her. SHE IS ALREADY BEING HURT. She just doesn't know it. That information is now being withheld from her so she cannot take steps to protect herself. You know this is not a friendship. You have the proof that it has gone way beyond that.

Please try to imagine the hell this woman is living through right now. She has, no doubt, suspected something for some time. He has probably been entirely emotionally detached which adds to her emotional pain and confusion.

She may not react well to the news,[many are extremely grateful, though] but at least you will have done the right thing and informed her that she is being harmed BEHIND her back. She has a HUGE problem and can't do anything about it until someone tells her!

If you knew someone was embezzling money from her would you not tell her because you "don't want to hurt her?"

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

So here I sit with tears running down my cheeks and sweat dripping from my hands. My heart feels like it is buried deep somewhere and I have no idea as to where to turn.

I love my wife, I love my children. I want a better marriage and a better life for my children. I want to tell her, the OM's W but I scared of the fallout. I am scared that my wife will leave. Will she, I honestly think she may run but that she will be back but I cannot continue, or at least feel that I cannot continue on.

3 months of what I thought was good recovery, or prehaps withdrawal and then she contacts him again. Her actions at home imediately changed to that of a despondent person but she refuses to see that simply talking to him has that effect on her. Why did she have to call him? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Why did she have to save his voice mail? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> And to think that she was probably listening to his voice as the entire family was driving down the road. That really irks me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Why did she have to call him again and talk for 20 minutes? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> See, I think I know all the answers but I cannot prove any of them. I cannot see her heart, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I cannot read her mind. To read the concepts here and to think that she just went back into withdrawal again just causes me to lose all hope.

Geez, I read and listen to some of the post here and I try to figure out where the determination and will to continue comes from. I look deep inside of me and sometimes I find the energy I need to continue, but today, it is coming up empty! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

trusting,

Your marriage is taking a predictable pattern that we see all the time here. It is not uncommon AT ALL that the WS slips and contacts the OP. It hurts but it is predictable and is a part of their withdrawal.

Your situation is actually BETTER than many we have seen make a full recovery! Please don't despair! I know it hurts but there is much hope here. It can't be repaired overnight, but it sure can be repaired. There are many here whose marriages have recovered and they now have better marriages than they did before. Please say a prayer and turn this over to God. Let him handle the outcome. You are doing fine.

Big hug for you: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{TRUSTING}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

th:

I just saw this, and am amazed at the similarities with my sitch. W "still here" that kind of thing.

"Have you considered going into counseling with the Harleys? Yes, but per her IC yesterday, they do not feel that she is ready for joint counseling."

DAWG! Red flagarooney! This IC may just be a twit. They're out there, they're plentiful, and they appear to be proliferating! I had one that seemed pretty good, and got my W to promise sexual fidelity last March. She's proud of the accomplishment, even though she had made that decision on her own 5 months earlier. So now, we have the "friendship" issue to deal with. She had an IC that seemed fixated on my W being a co-dependent (I'm not an alchoholic, either). She told me that her IC said I was being unreasonable in expecting her to stop talking to RM, and only told me a month or so after her last IC session in July that her IC said "It's not unreasonable for your H to expect you to stop talking to RM."

I've spoken to SH once, last July, but I may call him again. We're in a stalemate. Things are good for the most part, but my W's affection is divided, like yours is, and the best I get in response to ILY is "thank you." Usually, I get no response at all. But I digress. The best think about the Harleys counseling is that they will make the effort to get both partners into counseling. They're also very good at getting a reluctant spouse to participate, though it may take time. My experiences with our HMO (where our MC and her IC were) shows me that they are ill-equipped to handle the crisis of infidelity, they meet with you too infrequently, and our MC would not talk to either of us alone and her IC would not talk to me (at least my IC talked to my W once to get her perspective). Probably a lot of other counselors work this way too, which seems to hinder progress.

Be careful, there are a lot of dangerous twits out there, IMHO.

-Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She had an IC that seemed fixated on my W being a co-dependent (I'm not an alchoholic, either).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, since my wife has been in IC we have run the gaunlet. Back in October the theory was that I was Bi-polor. My IC and a physical exam from doctor disproved that theory. Next was manic-depressive (which I thought was related to bi-polor) which was aso dispeled. They then went to complusive disorders and now we are stuck on the fact that my wife has been living with a controling personality for 16 years.

To me it seems that the 2 of them are stuck on trying to find a problem with me instead of trying to determine the root cause of my wife's disaffection for me. Instead of trying to help her to see and make changes in her life that would effect the outcome of the recovery process. But who am I. According to them I read to much and then try to intellectualize (to give rational form or content to) everything. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Maybe I need to get into my on FOG so I will not have this problem.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the best I get in response to ILY is "thank you." Usually, I get no response at all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> If I tell her this before going to sleep I get "Good Night". At any other time I get silence or sometimes a "I know".

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Now she goes and makes a liar out of me. I just called her at work and said "I know I mess up sometimes but just wanted you to know that I love you.

She said "I really appreicate that".

So maybe today is better than I thought.

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: trusting her ]</small>

MelodyLane--

Thanks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please say a prayer and turn this over to God. Let him handle the outcome. You are doing fine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Becuase I was running late this morning and did not sleep good last night I missed my morning prayer time. Now I know why it is so important. After reading your post I ran outside to my car, grabbed my Bible and began to read. I then offered up my prayers for my wife and I and our marriage.

It is sometimes the small things we forget to do that have the biggest impact on our lives!

Thanks again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />