Jack-

"W just called because she got the DV papers. asked me if i wanted her to go through with her consent. i said "yes" but just because we get a DV doesn't mean that we can't start a whole new relationship down the road, if and when the "fog" she is in lifts. she said "really?" "you'd want me back?" i told her that i still love her and it wouldn't be easy but i don't see any reason why we couldn't start all over, FRESH, one-day."

Man, this is one difficult position you're in!! I can understand your financial concerns up to a point as I wasted alot of money on a PI then ended up NOT using the evidence in court. I, like yourself, couldn't condone my XWW's A in any way and asked her to leave immediately. Her A ended but we also ended up D'd. It's pretty cut and dried as far as what your choices are. If you get the D, simple statistics will indicate that your chances of getting back together will be lessened (remarriage occurs in roughly 10% of D's). Those same statistics indicate that the majority of marriages do not end because of A's. From what you described, it's only a matter of time before this thing flames out and it's likely that you could R if you wanted. I think regardless of whether you get the D, if you avoid those LB's and leave the door opened, she'll come back. Good luck!

Jack,

Not all situations fit the Plan A/B outlined by this site. Read the scenarios. They do make sense. In this case there appears to be significant risk due to extremely irrational behavior. Because of this things have progressed very rapidly. I am certain your wife's behavior will end - a person cannot operate like that for long. She will either recognize her problems, humble herself, and try make things right with your or she will crash and burn.

I would suggest proceeding with the divorce. But be very nice. Be supporting. Tell her that you must do this because of her behavior. Be a nice guy. If you want revenge - picture her state of mind when she wakes up to realize "I just screwed over the nicest man I know" But she must understand that you have to protect yourself. If your love is preserved, and she comes around after the divorce, remarriage could be possible. But for your own piece of mind expect nothing. Be nice. Be pleasant. Although, I do agree with not bailing her out of jail.

As far as your son is concerned he is within 3 years of being an adult. Don't sweat the child support - pay it gladly, despite where he choses to live. This will at least provide you wife with the opportunity to establish a stable home for your son. If she chooses to do otherwise, your son will like chose to live with you. All your are out is a few dollars.

I wish you luck with your prediciment. Just keep your cool. Try to stay outside the situation. Your temper will not serve you well here.

engineer_bob, that's exactly how i'm thinking about handling this situation. thanks for the backing. i'll let you know how it pans out. she will be over tonight after work to exchange mail and pick up a CD i bought for her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

i am also going to give her the plan b letter that i'll post in the next reply. i am asking for opinions on the letter.

litchfield, thanks man. i'm going to be strong here and not worry about statistics. hopefully things will work out for us in the end. i AM going to tell her that i am in NO hurry. she will have to come back and be committed 100% as i will be for her. i'll keep you posted.

here's the plan b letter i am giving her tonight (mostly stolen from the good folks at this site). i need opinions, please <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

thanks,

Dearest W,

This is one of the hardest letters I've ever written. It is with heavy heart that I sit here and put my thoughts and feelings to paper. It is truly sad what has happened to our marriage and us. The path that I must take now is not one of choice but one of self-preservation. Let me explain.

I would first like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage. I have made many mistakes in the past that can not be changed. What I have been able to do is recognize those errors in judgment and have learned from them so that I can take steps to ensure that they will not occur again. I was selfishly caught up in myself, my business, and with my selfishness and foolishness I helped create a void in our marriage that helped allow this affair to happen.

I did not realize how much it meant to you for me to be there for you. The conversation, the handholding, the hugs and the snuggling to name a few. I also could not see through my own confusion on why I was so angry. I now clearly see many of those things I was lacking in. I just didn’t understand how important it was to us.

I now have it clear in my mind that my time with my family, especially for my precious wife, is and will be my main focus should I ever have the chance again. You will always come first.

I did not understand what it took to have a successful and fulfilling relationship, or how to meet your needs. I can not sit here today and say that I know all that I need to know about relationships, but I can honestly say that I have learned a lot about honoring, cherishing and companionship. I want to learn even more about how to be a supportive and loving man. The type of man that I hope you would be proud to call your husband; the same pride I felt so many times when I called you my wife.

At times, since December 5th, I've been trying to give you hope for the marriage by learning how to be a better husband to you. To give you hope that you could return to a marriage that you wanted, and for us to build our life together, but the past seven weeks have been the most difficult time of my life. The pain and emptiness that I endure on a daily basis is almost too much to bear. My only saving grace is the memories of the love we once shared, of the all good times we have spent together, your extraordinary qualities that led me to ask you to spend your life with me and thought of us being together, someday happy again. Unfortunately, I now find those thoughts and feelings are slowly eroding away. Before I lose any more of the thoughts and feelings of what was once us, I must take some drastic steps.

W, as you know I am still willing to do whatever it takes to correct the mistakes that we have made in the past and make our marriage together stronger and closer than we ever thought possible. With all of my heart, I would like to build a new marriage with you. One, in which we both feel loved, safe, cherished and honored. I simply can not continue my efforts to rebuild our marriage while you are still involved with HIM. It has become too painful. We can only rebuild our marriage – together - when you completely end your relationship with HIM. Until that point, I feel I must break off all contact with you. I will avoid seeing you or talking to you or communicating with you in any way except to discuss S ONLY. No other conversation or contact whatsoever.

I must ask that you not have contact with me during pick up and drop off times. If you have any emergency matters, you can always call me or email me at any time.

I hope that you understand that I am not doing this to hurt you or punish you but to protect my feelings for you. I ask that you respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must know the torturous pain and suffering I have endured because of your relationship with HIM. I simply cannot be in contact with you any longer knowing that you and he are together. This separation is a necessity to preserve my love for you and to avoid losing any more of the things we have shared together, and to give our marriage the best chance for recovery! But also realize that the longer you stay with HIM our chances of reconciliation become slimmer and slimmer. I can’t hold on to you for too much longer. I MUST get on with MY life and focus on MY future if you’re not going to be there with me.

I think you need to take this time to face your demons, as I have faced mine, and figure out what you want. I can't control what you do, nor will I try to change you anymore. I can't do that and I accept that. I'm sorry if I hurt you because of it. I realize I have to take care of ME now. I can only control me and change myself. Only you can control and change you, if you choose to. I am fixable, you are fixable, and this is fixable.

I will be willing to discuss our future together as soon as you are willing to permanently separate from HIM and are willing to construct a plan to ensure a total separation. Until that time I will continue to pray for our family and us.

In my mind I will keep the vision of seeing you walk through the door and say "honey I’m home!" and of a happy and loving family that our needs are being met and a relationship that no others could come between. I know it can happen! What anyone other that you think about us is of no importance to me or my feelings for you. I have loved you as many different men; as a boyfriend, as husband, as a father, as a business partner, as a confidant, as a friend, as a mentor, to list a few. I still love you today; I just can not be with you or help you as long as you are still involved with HIM.

The divorce will go forward but that doesn’t mean that one-day we can’t start a fresh new life together, here or any other place we decide to live in the country.

Still your loving husband,
Jack

<small>[ January 16, 2003, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: jack55 ]</small>

How on earth is the county in which you live to blame for your marital troubles? People in New York have affairs and there's plenty of things for couples to do there. Take that part out of your letter.

Take that part out of your letter.

i agree! thanks!

I also wonder how you plan on "starting fresh." Maybe I'm nitpicking semantics here, but that's an impossibility. You have a past with your wife.

The other thing I wonder is whether you truly understand that Plan A and Plan B are not about "getting someone to come around." Yes, it's true, that they are intended to be used as tools to end the affair. But both plans begin with the self as the foundation. In other words, fix yourself to fix your marriage. I understand you are uncomfortable with Plan A ... that's perfectly natural. Keep in mind that the basic philosophy is central to the strategies used by many other experts in the field. Human behavior is exceptionally predictable. I suggest you also investigate Michelle Weiner-Davis's and even Dr. Phil's methods, too. It couldn't hurt.

I believe, right or wrong, you acted too quickly in initiating divorce activity. It's likely you acted on emotions. There's nothing wrong with being emotional right now -- we all understand that. I just believe that divorcing too quickly is as troublesome as marrying too quickly.

I got the following from a MB alum whose marriage is in recovery now three years and he says his marriage is better than ever. It's been enormously helpful to me in my efforts.

A) You don't have to make any decisions today -- nothing has to be decided immediately; give it time, wait it out and see what happens.

B) You can only control your own actions, nobody else's. Somebody doesn't do something because you willed them to do it.

C) The car dealer that appears confident and offers a good product is the one that makes the sale; not the dealer that is emotional and begs for the sale.

D) Go above the call of duty. Put more in than you take out. Especially when it's difficult.

E) Listen to your gut, not your head. Do the right thing. Always. It may be difficult, but you'll never hate yourself for it.

F) If somebody wants space, give it to them.

G) Find ways to love yourself. Esteem is hard in this situation.

H) Don't bring up the past out of anger or to hurt; do it to clear things up and avoid bringing it up when there's no need.

I) Don't worry about being right. Do what works.

According to Harley, plan A is for

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to NEGOTIATE with the wayward spouse TO TOTALLY SEPARATE FROM THE LOVER without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these NEGOTIATIONS for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, by avoiding love busters a BS makes him/herself more attractive but the real purpose of plan A is not self improvement but TOTAL SEPARATION OF WS FROM OP.

<small>[ January 16, 2003, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

but the real purpose of plan A is not self improvement but TOTAL SEPARATION OF WS FROM OP.

although it's not my character, i tried plan A and played it to a "T". granted, i didn't stay with plan a for a long period as recommended here, but i tried. all it did, at that time, was make her have 'no contact' with ME! maybe i shoulda hung in there longer, probably so, but... i didn't.

"starting fresh"; when this 'thing' of hers ends, i am leaving the option for us to start all over again "fresh". meaning, we are no longer married, we'll date, we'll have what we had when we first met, and her stuff is hers and my stuff is mine. a NEW and FRESH start. it COULD be exciting again, no?

i'm beginning to feel that things DID go to quickly, but it's there now. i do not want to stop the divorce beacause i have to protect myself financially if she just comes back until her 'problems' are solved by ME and then runs off again with a BETTER DEAL.

AND, if she does come around, i'm not going to be quick to let her move back in. we'll have to take it slowly so that i KNOW she is coming back for the RIGHT REASONS.

am i way off base here?

I'm not certian to whom TMCM's reply is directed, but it seems we agree and disagree simultaneously. As I said, Plans A and B are tools to end the affair. There is no arguing that. But in order to negotiate effectively, one must have something with which to bring leverage. That thing is the self ... in this case someone better than before or at the very least someone willing to do what it takes to become better than before. If all someone is bringing to the table is their pain, a belief in the institution of marriage and the same old person, then he or she is toast. Those things clearly didn't work before and is exactly why they're in this spot now. Without the self-improvement component, how are Plans A and B, let alone marital or divorce recovery, even possible?

W came over to get her mail. we exchanged pleasantries (sp?), we talked for a bit and i gave her plan b letter. she asked if she could read it now and i said yes.

after reading, she became cold(?) i think, and got up and left within minutes.

i thought it would move her immediately, it didn't.

wow! from 80% back to normal back to 40%.

now, i guess, i stand firm, right?

this is sooooo hard. been a salesman my whole life and this is one rejection that i definitely am having trouble with.

no more decisions on my own, i'll ask you folks and listen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Now that you have given her your plan B letter you must resist contacting her except for important child related issues and even there you can use an intermediary to handle said issues. Now it's up to her OM to fill ALL her EN's and hope that he will love bust her till she comes out of the fog.

Keep in mind that a WS's behavior can change without warning when s/he is in the fog of the A. The trick is to keep a cool head and treat this as 'normal' behavior for the WS still knee deep in the A. So don't be surprised by her behavior.

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

jack55,

Do you really understand what you have done ? .... 2x4

-rh-

Whippit, the reason I posted Harley's explanation of plan A is because strangely enough its stated purpose is many times lost by the BS. Negotiating means that you respectfully communicate to the WS your willingness to address those issues that MIGHT have contributed to the environment that became fertile ground for the A. .By not love busting the WS, the BS is creating a safe environment for honest communication with the WS, and showing that despite the betrayal, the BS still loves the WS very much. It is then HOPED that the WS will see the selfishness and thoughtlesness of his/her behavior and start to think that the A was wrong to begin with and that s/he is better off trying to rebuild the M rather than destroying it. The problem I see with many a BS (here on the infidelity boards) is that they wait until there is no more love left for the WS and end up heading straight for divorce. Self improvement is a biproduct of following plan A but it is not its main purpose.

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

2x4?

one thing i've done, i hope, is help ME out. W and i have been talking about every three days recently, or i see her like last night, and after the conversation i usually feel like chit for a day or so. now, let HIM take care of all her EN and see what happens. the ball is in their court. yea, i want her back and i'm taking a gamble but i can't sit around forever waiting and hoping and getting hurt every time i see or talk to her.

i'm going to vegas on wednesday for a week. hopefully that'll be good therapy for me. a yearly superbowl weekend get together with people that visit my website. i'll have about 80 friends there. that should help keep my mind distracted from this mess <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TMCM ... gotcha. We're in agreement right up until your last statement. Antoher version of the classic chicken/egg argument, no? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

wow, didn't get a chance to post before you handed over that Plan B letter. All I can say is you're moving awfully fast.

But maybe it'll work, it's hard to know on this board. Some people plan A far too long. Others don't Plan A long enough.

Anyway, I do think your Plan B letter was well written and laid things out very clearly. Now you just have to sit back, distract yourself (Vegas should do nicely) and see if she comes out of the fog.

this whole thing went WAY too quickly. she hand delivered the divorce papers to the court today saying that she "does not contest the divorce".

she called this morning to see where to take the documents. i told her, said thanks and good-bye. end of conversation.

i'll just sit back and wait. i have this awful void inside of me but i can't control anything now. i know her well and i don't think Plan A would have worked at all. you guys know more about that than i do but i am not the type that can continue on with a plan like that.

plus, i have to cover my [censored]. she got a bad deal worth in the 6 figure range and i don't trust her right now. AT ALL! if she ever does come out of the "fog" and wants to come back, and she WILL, it'll be on my terms, period.

i'll keep you updated and come back for help, even though i'm not a good listener.

thanks