MM,

Don't listen to anything I said man. I only told you what I was supposed to say. You don't need to hear how I really feel. You would probably be surprised.

About the movie, "Unfaithful". Do you think the depiction of the WS is an accurate one? Think you could ever compete with those emotions?

jd

MM: Glad to hear you are still trying to do God's will. What value is it to do God's will when it is the same as your will, compared to when they conflict? If you are not obedient when it is hard, are you realy obedient? My wife carried on an affair for three years, knowing all along it was in conflict w/ God's will, but "feeling" it was right - or at least not wrong enough to stop. I think it was 50% was her relationship w/ the OM, and 50% her withdrawal from me that screwed up her thoughts and emotions enough that this was possible. When she confessed, she believed God was asking her to give up something she really wanted. What she found out was that God knew what she needed better than she did, and what she wanted to hold on to was not as good as what He wanted to give her. But she did not know that or feel that ahead of time. She only knew she HAD to be obedient. (I'm still not clear how that came about after 3 years of dis-obedience. My best guess goes somethng like: "Guilt is good". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

So, the rest of what I have to say is affected by that experience. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Am I doing exactly as my wife did when she started the affair? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not EXACTLY. But yes. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Am I actually in an EA? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Check out Emotional infidelity or Affair stages - I and Affair Stages - II if you don't believe me. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, would I carry on a relationship such as I have with this woman if my wife and I were together and happy? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. You know this: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would have never considered any type of relationship with any woman while I was married. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But isnt that what my wife did…decided the marriage was over (but in her case didn't tell me at the time because I was in Bosnia) and started in a new relationship? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Even though I have started the process, arent I just as guilty as her, even though I have been careful not to cross any overt lines? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One can make the argument that you are less guilty because you have not yet crossed all the lines...but "less guilty" is still "guilty". </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is unbelievable to me that I could do so well listening to God thru all of this pain over the last year and a half, and then just when I was coming out of it and started to get on with my life, I go and start this relationship and screw up. Is that what I have done here? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is exactly the genie I didn't want out of the bottle. It was why I protected myself from other women over this deal. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, now you know in a way you did not know before just how important guarding your heart is.

MM: There is another poster who frequents the JFO and Plan A/B forums named "Cerri" that has repeatedly made a point that is so applicable to your sitch: Plans A and B go against our instincts and our feelings. As long as there is contact w/ the OP, Plan A is horrendously difficult for us BS's, because we have to control our feelings of resentment and anger and hurt so that we do not LB. Our natural instinct is to hurt those who are hurting us. On the ohter hand, while we continue to have any love for our spouse, Plan B goes against our instincts, because it feels like giving up, and while love lasts, hope lasts - or maybe it's the other way around. Yet if we don't do Plan B while we really don't feel like it, because we still have a little hope and love remaining, it becomes Plan D, not Plan B. When you have no hope or desire for reconciliation, why tell your spouse that you want to reconcile, as Plan B requires? Plan A and Plan B are a lot like trusting God and doing things you don't want to do because God says you should even though your brain and your heart are telling you something different. Except Plan A and Plan B are not God's directives, they were devised by a man. And, unlike God's directives, they are not perfect, so it is even harder to trust them than Him.

I have to note also your great Plan A the last time you saw your W, though I don't think you will find any of this in Harley's writings. The detachment you feel is not entirely bad. If you are really depending on God, not your wife, for your self-worth, you can do Plan A without getting too upset over her actions, because you are not basing your actions toward her on how you feel about her, but on what God wants you to do. Of course, if you are basing your actions toward her on how you feel about YOURSELF, because of how other people treat you (like this new friend), then maybe God does not have His proper place in your life. I say this as someone who's wife was more important to him than God. Changing that is part of my recovery challenge, so maybe I'm projecting. Or maybe not...

I do understand how you do not want to go back to the pain you have experienced in your relationship w/ your W. What would make you feel safe? If you can answer that, that might be a good basis for a Plan B letter. Your last contact w/ her was a GREAT plan A, even if it was only a few hours. Maybe it is time for a real Plan B.

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

"But the most important thing, for the first time, the pain had been subsiding. "

MM- I think you know the answers to the questions you've asked, only it may not be what you want to hear. IMO you should pay particular attention to JL's advice as you're probably well aware of how "right on" his opinions/comments always seem to be. As others have mentioned, there are several problems with this budding friendship of yours: (a) It's the wrong thing to do, you're still married legally and spiritually (b) You're still very much in love with wife (c) You're covering the pain (see your comment above) but you're not taking the time to truly heal your heart.

I'd suggest that you will actually PROLONG your suffering by engaging in this relationship. Even if the D goes through, you're going to have lots of emotions to sift through before you're ready for a relationship. See this thing through with your W until the end!

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: litchfield ]</small>

jdmac1: Do I think the WS in there accurately shows the emotions of an WS? Oh yeah! my wife said as much. It is such a great depiction of the "narcotic" effect that affairs have, just as the Harley's talk about. You watch "Connie" the WS in the movie literally go into anxiety attacks when she is away from the OM and only settles down in his presence. Can we compete with that? Well, no. Not while they are addicted. As the Harley's say, the addiction has to run its course, as it did in the movie. I thought the depiction of the reactions of the BS, and of the mess left over and the options available to the couple to start rebuilding were great, and showed what we all know here. I highly recommend this movie to anyone that wants to see firsthand what the Harley's are talking about. My wife is still shaking and crying from the movie and her seeing herself in it. She now truly believes what Steve told her about the fog and the addiction.

John: Okay, I am in agreement here. It really hit me hard that I had fallen into this. But...the question still remains...do I even want my marriage now? I am not sure. and that questions was answered a resounding "no" before I met this woman. Now, when I had decided to move on, my wife appears to be pulling out of this. What to do? God allows divorce in my case. but is that what he really wants? And if I am not ready to give a 100% to my wife, then how can I go back into this? And I would ask these same questions two weeks ago, before I met this woman. 4 weeks ago, I was done! All this woman has done is cause me to have an added pull not to turn around and come back. So, I am still confused. Of course, I am going to back off with this woman and tell her what I have relearned here. It's funny, because I know she will agree. And we will back off. But, my question still remains do I want this marriage now? I have looked at my wife for 9 1/2 years, even thru adultery, with unfailing love. A month ago, for the first time, I allowed myself to consider a life without her and consider that I might have someone else in my life. Up until then, I would guard my heart relentlessly, making sure I never allowed anyone of the female persuasion to even get close enough to tempt me. But now that I decided that it was over, and added to the fact that I have felt a few things for someone new, I look at my wife differently. And my love for her also. So how can I give her 100% again? I am just not sure that I want to stop this now, even if this is a true fog lifting on her part. Obedience to God is not hard here. I can go, or I can stay. But even though I can go, I know His will is reconciliation. But I am permitted to divorce. So, what do I choose? I am justified either way. I am really confused now and am not sure which way to go. And I think my wife senses that...that I really am struggling with even wanting to find out anymore about us.

litchfield: See my above posts. I agree and I am making steps as I sit here to back off that situation with that woman. And I do love my wife. What I have done for the first time in 10 years though, is to consider a life without her. And now that I have, and resigned myself to that, now I am being asked to go back in a commit to this again. Five weeks ago, no problem. But I have crossed a few bridges since then, and I am not talking about this woman. And now that I am on the other bank of the river, I am not sure I want to go back into that mess on the otherside, where I came from. This is my problem now.

In His Arms.

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

MM: Yes, God allowed divorce, but God allowed divorce because of our hardness of heart, not because it was a morally equivalent option.

As for giving your W 100% - no, you can't, at least not right away. All you can commit to is to do everything you can do, and obey God. If that is less than 100%, let her know what you can commit to. Not in percentage terms, but what you can do and what you can't do. Be honest about your pain and fear and frustration and embarrassment, and about how that affects your ability to be there. Especially be honest about your lack of trust, and why. Not: "You made me lose trust in you.", but: "When you did this, then that, then this, it made me feel----", and I can't go through that pain again. I know that when I [blew up at you] (or whatever) it pushed you away again, and contributed to the the problem, and I know that I need to work on my self-control, so it does not happen again. I will do whatever it takes to change. Know that if I did not care, I would not have gotten angry, but I know I have to change, too." I Radical Honesty is in some ways more about being honest w/ yourself than anything else.

Don't give too much (the primary cause of abuse, according to Harley). Even Jesus tells us we should love our neighbors as ourselves, not more than ourselves. If you are going to make a marriage w/ your wife work, it has to be different from your old one - and a true partnership of "different equals".

One thing I understood instinctively was that my old marriage was dead - I did not want to go back there. And, one of the problems in my old marriage was that I gave too much. I did not understand that when Jesus said "as yourself" he meant just that, and that putting my wife first was a sin. You won't hear that from very many Christians. Read everything Harley has written on this site about the POJA. Then read it again. Then buy Fall in Love, Stay in Love, and read everything in that book about the POJA. This is what "loving each other as yourself" looks like in a good marriage. It took me so long to "get" that. One year into recovery I was still trying to get my W to agree to do things my way, instead of finding a way to do things our way.

Mortar,

Please do not misunderstand me. I am in no way saying go back to the rollercoaster of a life she has been putting you through. All I am saying is if you are pursuing divorce then pursue divorce. Your friendship with this woman is not the same as the OM, however as you stated if you were happily married would you have this friendship with this woman...and would your thoughts about her be along the same lines? Ofcourse the answer is no. We forget that the important word in that sentence is not "happily" rather "married". The rules of marriage do not change when we are unhappy or being treated badly...now our reactions may have to be adjusted to protect ourselves and the relationship may eventually have to be disolved. But married is married.

Now as to the aspect of your deciscion, this woman, and your wife's behavior in regards to the future...

It is clear that the impetus for you coming to a crossroads and being done with the pain was based on your wife's behavior. Your friend has nothing to do with that. It is a natural reaction to want to share with someone, look to the future, etc. You have things in common and you have rapport. Fine. I truly believe if you would have sat home alone you would have been contemplating the same future...a future without your wife. There is nothing wrong with thinking about a life without pain...with happiness...and fidelity. These are your dreams. I am sure this woman has the same dreams. This friend just put a face on it for you. You are both now in a place where you are on the brink. Whether or not your wife has an epiphany is not important in relation to your friendship with this woman. You desire what this woman represents and she feels the same about you, however you are both more complex than to believe that this surface bond you made has any real bearing on your future with your wife or the outcome of your divorce...if you so choose.
Your wife has driven you away. You are wounded. You need to heal.

I say step back now for the future good of everyone. If you divorce...whatever relationship you have...and I am talking relationship-not two very sad people desperate to smile friendship you have shared with this woman-will be new regardless if it is with this friend, another lady, or your self-improved wife. If you reconcile you will not have to worry about how that might hurt your friend if things had progressed.

Two things are paramount and non negotiable:

1. Protect your children

2. Act married until you are not-ofcourse you cannot be her husband in ways that she will not accept or that will harm you but that does not give you carte-blanche to act unmarried.

The point is you are not madly in love with your friend but you are desperately tired of misery.Completely understandable. You have realized in plenty of time that your friendship with her should fade back into an aquaintanceship until the time you are both single. You have not tainted a future with her, your wife, or anyone...however if you did not realize the need to detach I would say a future relationship would have been doomed. Why? Because you would always question yourself, your motives.

I am not finding fault with you...this is a confusing time for anyone. You have done wonderfully well.

At this point, your wife needs to make drastic changes in her life. Changes you cannot make for her. You need to be true to yourself. I do not advocate divorce but sometimes in letting go healing and peace can thrive. Remember without the betrayal of Christ by Judas salvation would never have been had. He works in mysterious ways. Stick with the basics....take care of your children and yourself. Let God take care of your wife. If she works with him he will lead her back to you. If not he will lead you on a new path.

search for peace.

continuing prayers

ayslyne

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: ayslyne ]</small>

MM-

What motivated you to give that movie to your W? The same exact thing happened to me, and I reacted in the same manner.

I'm VERY curious to understand what it is that you were trying to draw from her reaction.

Hi MM,

What is the name of the movie? I thought I saw it posted, but I could not find it.

Thanks
Sue

Hi, MM.

After reading through this entire thread, I thought of a few "reasons" to work on your M for you to think about....

First of all, as you have stated, you are seeking God's will and His plan for your future. True?

Good! That's a good place to start. Starting from this vantage point, let me throw a few things out there for you to chew on....

You have kids. We all know some of the effects Div. has on kids. Anyone who thinks Div. has NO long-lasting effect on kids hasn't been listening!

If there is any way AT ALL that you could prevent this from happening to your kids, or coming upon your household, why wouldn't you be in favor of it? As is outlined in the Bible, do not allow the generational curse of Div. to enter your household.

Second of all, we as christians know that we were created by our creator to serve Him. We are not our own. We cannot dictate our own lives, nor do whatever we want to do. We are to "Die to self." I am still learning all that means, but I have learned that it even involves my M. Dying to self means being willing to do whatever God tells us to do regardless of whether we want to, feel like it, or not. We obey Him b/c we know that He ultimately has OUR BEST INTEREST in mind for our future. We can't see the future, but we trust Christ for it. Knowing that, how could we NOT give it all to Him? He doesn't have a plan to make our lives miserable, but to fill it TO THE FULLEST!

Finally, my own personal bias is that God does not want any of His children to "Tear Asunder" their M's! We DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to undo what God has united. God hates Div. It creates bigger problems in our families than it fixes. It sends a curse on to many following generations. It leaves God's children (all of us) with hurts and scars far deeper than anything we can even comprehend.

Well, I'm getting way too wordy here, but I think I made my point.

I believe this "friend" of yours is simply a "ploy" of satan to get your eyes off God's plan, and distract you into something very destructive to your family. Think, MM. Think of your children, more so than yourself OR your WW. Think.

Someone gave me this good advice once a long time ago. It has served me well whenever I have to make a hard decision about anything:
"Satan always sends his best, before God sends HIS best."

Have you been duped by this ploy of satan? Are you believing the "baubble" that satan is dangling before you is better than waiting for GOD'S BEST for you?

God Bless.

MortarMan ultimately it is you that will have to live with the decision to divorce your WW or not, but I would like to make a point, if I may.

Even if you decide to give your M one more chance, you have to keep in mind that your WW has to earn her way back to the M. Why earn? because what is earned is always valued more than what is freely given, and there is also a sense of achievement that is not present when something is freely given. How does this relate to your situation? The way your WW will earn her right to come back to you is by enthusiastically agreeing to a plan of action that includes boundaries such as no more contact with OM, no friendships with members of the opposite sex, being accountable to you 24/7 of her whereabouts, and also to become knowledgeable with the MB principles so that she too can put them into practice to help heal the M and eventually make it thrive. Have you proposed any of these things to her? If not, I beleive you should because then you can say that you left the door open with the lights on, so that she could come back, but she refused to take advantage of it.

She has said that she wants to come back to you and the kids, but wanting something does not make it so. I want to become a millionaire but it isn't going to happen if I don't committ to a plan of action to achieving that goal, and it would ludicrous for me to beleive otherwise, wouldn't it? Well the same goes for her, in that if she wants to come back, she's going to have to earn it by doing what needs to be done in order to have her H and children back. Will she agree to do it? only God knows that for sure, but if she doesn't then I would say that you can look yourself in the mirror that you gave it your all but that she did not want to put in the work needed to help rebuild the M.

Remember that talk is cheap, and it is her actions that will speak volumes as to where her heart and mind are with regards to rebuilding the M.

I hope this helped you MortarMan.

MM,

You are making something very very simple very very hard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

First, I really endorse all that the people before me have suggested. I would however like to put what they have said in a different light. So you are really NOT hearing anything new, just repeated in a slightly different way.

I see your position as the simplest of all positions and thus you have NOTHING to worry about. Do you believe that? You should. Allow me to expound on this.

First, you are emotionally ready to "stack arms" and call it a day. The pain has stopped. So what is the problem? You have none here. You are ready and capable, and you know life will move on. You KNOW you can take care of 3 kids and still work: you are doing it. You know another woman will find you attractive and be interested in you. You know you have done all you could and the reward for your efforts is PEACE.

I see no problem.

You say you fear going back into the pain. My STRONG recommendation is simple, DON'T GO BACK INTO THE PAIN. Dah! Was it painful to eat dinner and hold your W? NO! Why? No OM, she WANTED to be with you, and frankly you felt safe in your position to offer your shoulder for her to cry on. No pain here, right?

You worry about whether the marriage could be rebuilt or that you really WANT to stay married to her. Yes, your marriage can be rebuilt. No you don't want to stay married to the woman you have been married to for the last 19 months. But, what if a NEW woman appeared in your life. She had a new career. She loved your children. She loved you and appeciated what a strong man you are? What if this woman showed up in a few months. Would you divorce the old wife and take up with this new woman? You bet your bippy you would, IF you were divorced.

BUT, what if this new woman was your W? Well, then you could be divorced or you couldn't be divorced and you could take up with her. First, you would have to learn about her, you would have to discuss your goals and hers. You would need to agree on child rearing questions, money questions, sex, and how deep your love was for each other. The last one takes time to discover.

Where is the problem? I don't see one. Your W or another woman is going to have to fall for you and you are going to have to fall for her. This can happen before the divorce if it is your W or it can happen after the divorce then it can be anyone. No problem it will happen in its time.

Are you getting the picture here? You are a man capabe of love and fidelity. You are capable of raising your children on your own, if necessary. Your W is the one with serious decisions to make. Then she will have to figure out how to overcome what she has done.

My only other strong recommendation to you is to LET her if she tries. I know there is a strong temptation to be hard to get. I know there is a strong temptation to protect yourself. But, you have dealt with the worst she has to offer, so try dealing with the best, IF it is offered.

I agree with Coffeeman and others, she will have to earn it. But the earning shouldn't be to overcome barriers from you, but simply just YOU.

You have trusted God so far, don't waver now. Let things progress, and continue your course. This isn't complicated. She must make a decision. She must change her approach to you. You must fall in love with her again, and she with you. And then the two of you must learn about each other. You have both changed sooooo much in the last 2 years, and while you may not believe this MM, YOU BOTH HAVE CHANGED FOR THE BETTER. If that weren't true you, truely don't have anything to worry about now do you?

MM, in my life I have found that when push came to shove ALL of the major decisions in my life were really made for me. When it all played out there was only ONE way to go. I could have chosen another, but the data was clear that this would be a bad choice, and in retrospect they were. So have faith, have patience, and smile. You have arrived. Your work is done. It is simply a matter now of seeing how other people handle THEIR decisions.

You have little reason to fear this now.

God Bless,

JL

Amen.

JL:

You're darn tootin!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-Qfwfq

Okay everyone...I took a few days to digest what everyone has said here. And I want to comment on it and let you know where I am at.

Johnh39: I really do understand that God's will is reconciliation...not divorce. I have studied, gone to Christian counseling, listened to tapes ad nauseum over the last two years in an effort to discern God's will. My point in this is that since I decided to move on back in December, where I am at, what I feel, and what it would take for my wife to come back have all changed. I am much stronger. I do now know of a life that I can have without my wife. You know, it has been the kids that has kept me in this for all this time. If it werent for them, I would have left and never looked back after I found out about the adultery. But it is now the kids that are the reason that I am considering not going back into this again. I just now have them emotionally stabilized. what am I going to do...ask them to again get their hopes up as they watch Mom and Dad working on things, only to have my wife run away again? Their dad is now strong and acting like their Dad again FULLY for the first time since all of this started. They want their dad back in depression and upset? I understand His will and I understand that IF my wife follows Him, that we can get things back and even better. But at this point, that is a mighty big IF. And the track record does not support the fact that she can do it. Please see my update below on what has gone on the last few days.

ayslyne: again, you hit the nail on the head. I am again trying to close the door on some things and to maintain my position until I am divorced or reconciled. I do not believe I have crossed any lines up until now, but you are right…I am headed in that direction. And I want to make sure that I make it all the way through this. As you can see with my comment to John above, I just don't know what to do now. I feel so much better now. My wife does not affect me like she used to. I now can stand near her and not get upset. I actually have felt pity for her over the last month. But all of this has changed the dynamics of how I feel about her. See below on my update and see how I continue to struggle with this. But again, you continue to be the voice of reason and I will endeavor not to do anything that would jeapordize my position with God. I just know that everyday that I move forward, I move away from her. And it will make it that much harder for me to allow her to return. Until the point is reached where it will be impossible.

Kily: The movie "Unfaithful" I had decided to rent out of almost defiance. You see, it came out last summer, right when I was in the middle of trying to save my marriage. I swore I would never watch it…that it would be too painful. But I decided to rent it last week because I have been feeling much stronger, and wanted to prove it to myself by being able to watch it. Of course, it floored me. It is well written and acted. The reactions of the BS (Richard Gere) are text book and I found myself shaking with anxiety when he was confronting the OM. It also was very well written on the WS. It showed her anxiety when away from OM, her dreaming of him as she headed to his house. Of her conflict. It showed the narcotic affect that the Harley's talk about. And it shows, as my wife said after watching it, how the WS wakes up and thinks back to that point where they could have made a different decision. And they now wish they had of. On giving it to my wife, I wasn't looking for a reaction really. I had mentioned that I had watched it and she asked what I thought. I told her what I just wrote here, and she was interested in seeing it. I still had not returned it, so I gave it to her to watch. It absolutely floored her. I would be interested on your reactions to it as a WS also.

Sue: It is called "Unfaithful" with Richard Gere and Diane Lane.

Lupolady: Your point about the kids is well taken. If it wasn't for them, and God, I would have left. They are the only reason I am still writing here and considering any of this. I want to do His will here, I am just not sure what is going on. I know He wants reconciliation, but is this true reconciliation, or another diversion to get Mortarman to pull back from divorce, other relationships, happiness, etc? What is the truth of what my wife is doing? If I knew for sure that it was her coming around to God, then I would of course follow His will in this and seek reconciliation. But I do not. And I already have three times before where I tried only to be shoved away and her run back to the OM. So, is this truly it finally? Or is it just an attempt by Satan to keep me in my box, and not allow me to move on with my life? This is the question I do not have an answer for. And I know, with this kind of doubt, it will make it much more difficult for my wife to approach me and get back, if that is indeed what she is trying to do.

Coffeeman: Oh yeah, she will have to earn it. But my problem is that since I have moved so far down the road, the bar which she must cross now may have been set a lot higher. You list some very good things there about what she must do. But I am not even sure that is enough now. I want assurances, and we all know that is impossible. So, unlike most of this time, the last month has put me in a position where I am a lot harder and more emotionally detached. Now, how is she going to get thru all of that and more importantly, will she even try? She may see it as too tough to do. But I am watching her actions (see my update below).

JL: You know what my man…that was probably the most brilliant writing on all of this that I have read yet. The Harley's should take your post and put it up for all to see. You have made the complicated simple. Wow!! You are right…the decisions are already made. The worry is over, really. My worries now come from how I will react to what she does, not what she does. While over all of this, I was ready, willing and able to accept her back and work on the marriage, I am unsure now. And I know that I don't want the marriage if either one of us are not going to be able to commit 100% to it. When I held my wife last week, I had ASSUMED things were over with the OM, because of the way she was acting (read the previous posts on this thread). But we talked this last Sunday, and you will see in my update below that I still continue to fear this not because of what she is doing, but because I am protecting myself and am reaching the point where she may not be able to reach me. But again, your post here puts all that has been said by everyone in a very well written, succinct package. As usual, you are right on the money. Maybe the Harley's will hire you (or adopt you, since it seems to be a family affair…lol).

Now the update…

As I said, I took the weekend to think and pray on this. My wife worked or studied all weekend, so there wasn't much contact until Sunday night. A couple of weeks ago, I had sent her the testimonial that Johnh39 listed in his post. Well, Saturday night, she finally checked her email, and then sent the following email back to me:

"Babe, please give me the counselor's number if you think she can help. I already know all of this you sent me. That's why the phone call last nite didnt upset me one bit. I know what we have even now. ME 4/10/93."

The phone call was from the girl that I have been talking to that came through while my wife was over visiting the kids. And the 4/10/93 is our wedding date.

On Sunday, she called me and asked if I could meet her and talk because she wanted to explain some things. I thought this would be the talk of reconciliation, the way things had been going. So, I left the kids with my mom, and headed to her place. She was a bit frazzled because she was getting ready for work and school and had to be up at 4am the next day. But she said she wanted to talk. As we started, she realized that she had grabbed her friend's husband's cell phone by accident when they were studying together, and now she would have to waste another 2 hours driving to her house to return it and then getting back home. So the tension increased again. But she still wanted to talk so I sat there and listened.

She told me that there were indeed changes going on in her life. That the trip to Florida with the OM was a "Burning Bush moment." That they fight ALL the time. That he even asked her the previous week during a fight if there was anything she liked about him, and she responded with "not much." She said her friend that had gone thru this many years before but got back with her husband was kind of mentoring her now. She even joked that she comments to her friend when her friend is advising her that "grasshopper is learning" (for all of you that watched TV in the 80s). She said that the trip to Florida FINALLY woke her up to the fact that everything she has done is sin, that the OM wasn't and isnt something sent by God, but just plain sin. Of course, these are the words that I have waited to hear for over 9 months! But then I asked the question…"So, what does this mean? Are you still with him…are you still sleeping with him?" she said that she wasn't saying that she had stopped anything yet, that is why she wanted to see the counselor. I asked her mom a couple of days later about this, and she said that my wife has always had difficulty ending things. In the past, she would just start up with someone else, and the person she was leaving would just slowly disappear. But her comment that she hadnt ended anything floored me again. I felt like I was being sucked into a mess again. She saw that and said that she wanted to tell me all of this because she wanted me to know that the great week we had last week didn't mean that we were moving her in…just that she had finally woke up to what she had done, who I am and who OM is. That she now had to sit down with the counselor and on her own, figure out "WHY" she had done what she did and how she should move on and get her life back in order. But she didn't want me getting all wound up and hopes up because she didn't know how this all turned out. I of course, was running for cover!

In an effort to protect myself, I told her that I heard what she was saying. And I would love to believe it, and believe in it. But, as Coffeeman said, actions speak louder than words (more on this below). I told her that since she was still with him, still seeing him (she REALLY didn't admit or deny still being with him, just that they were still talking), that this all meant nothing to me. It was just talk and I wish she wouldn't do it. I told her that our kids were excited because, as they said earlier that night, "Mom and Dad are going on a date." When my daughter saw me the next day and asked me how it went, I had to disappoint her by saying "nothing has changed honey." But as you can see below, I am not sure that is true.

Anyway, she got upset with me pulling back. Said things like "You cant just let things happen, you have to control everything. I am not going to do this your way. I have to figure this out and you are not going to dictate how I do that and make me have to feel what you feel." I told her I wasn't, that I didn't understand that if what she was saying about me, about OM, about sin, about Florida, about God, etc were all true, then her still maintaining the relationship was inconsistent with that. And that I do not understand. She said that I didn't need to understand. I told her that may be true, but without understanding, I only see things as nothing has changed…and thus I am continuing on with my life. And that we really needed to go back to no contact, except for the kids. She had tears falling at this point.

I went to leave as she was leaving to go take that phone back. She told me that she was disappointed on how this went. That she wanted us to sit down with a glass of wine, some music, and discuss all of this. She said she could see that I was upset and that she wanted me to rethink what I was saying and to call her tomorrow. I told her that I would of course think on this, but that one thing was non-negotiable…OM must be gone for good for anything positive to happen with us or between us. Of course, as is usual with Mortarman, I would recede from that somewhat yesterday (read below).

So, we pulled out and started to head back into town with her following me. As we entered town, and I would head off to my house, she flashed her lights at me, and called my cell. She asked if I wanted to drive and talk as she took this phone back. I told her sure, and we pulled over and she got in my car. We drove to her friends house and back and talked for most of the hour and a half. She wanted to know more about my friend and what was going on. I told her I wouldn't discuss it, that she wasn't the issue. She said that I wanted to discuss OM and getting him out. I told her that he is the one that is causing this, and he is the one that must be gone for anything else to happen. She reached over and held my hand for most of the trip. Up until now, she hasn't asked for anything (to stop the custody hearing, divorce, money etc). But at the end of the night, she did ask for some money to by a suit for her job interview at the end of this week. I told her I would think about it. The drive calmed things down some, but I still maintained the fact that OM=no contact. She said she understood, but was now tired and needed to think on this.

The next day, I sent her a response to that email from saturday. Here it is:

"Mrs. Mortarman, The counselor's phone number is ###-###-####. You and I just got off the phone this morning and I want you to know that the situation is the same. You say "I know what we have even now" but you continue to have a sexual relationship with another man. So, obviously, you do not know what we have OR what we have doesn't mean that much to you. What the hell is "de-escalation?" What does that mean? You cant be a "little pregnant"...you are not a little gay...and you cant be a little married or a little committing adultery. You either are or you are not. As long as you are in an adulterous relationship, we really have nothing to talk about. Nothing has changed really. It is just talk. Look, I do not want to be with someone that feels this way anyway. That feels that OM is a great friend and is the reason you got through all of this. That feels that it is okay to continue that relationship while you figure out what you are doing. That it is okay to continue to take off your clothes and have him touch you and have sex with you, and you have no problem with that and continue to allow it. If you continue to feel about him and what he has done to you, to me, to the kids, as a great friend, then you and I are really too different now to ever work out. And you would really be better off with him, someone who agrees with your point-of-view on life, love, friendship, sex, family and marriage. You think about that. And then tell me that you REALLY know what we have now. Mortarman"

She then calls me twice just to talk. I had picked up some parts for her windshield wiper that the OM had taken off when it broke, but never replaced (this was over a month ago). She commented on how I was the ONLY one volunteering to fix it. Of course, I had dual motives, as the fact that my kids ride in that car with her and having only one windshield wiper is unsafe. But I didn't say that to her. I told her that I couldn't in good conscience loan her the money (she was going to give a bracelet I gave her for our anniversary one year and her wedding band to me as collateral). I also reiterated to her that I really think that until OM was gone, that we should go back to no contact. I could tell she was hurt, and she got mad. She said fine, that she would take care of her interview herself. It wasn't an angry response…more hurt than anything else. I REALLY did want to help her and could have. But, I had made a plan for my life a month ago, set up boundaries and must now keep them. I told her about the boundaries and she said she understood.

Anyway, she calls Tuesday just to chat, but I am a little busy with the kids. She mentions that I am the only one that really wants to hear about her day, especially at work. I do LOVE hearing about what goes on in the ER and am fascinated by her stories. It seems that this was another dig at the OM. She said she wanted to talk about a few things later when things calmed down at home with the kids. I asked her what they were about. She said "Can't a wife talk with her husband?" I told her to call me later. At about 10pm, she called but was wiped out and really in no mood to talk serious talk. She was very tired and had to get back up at 4am. So, I just listened to her for a minute and we got off the phone without her talking about whatever it was that she wanted.

Then, yesterday, I get a call at work from the wife, asking if I wanted to come back out to her place for dinner with the kids like last week. That way we are close to church and can head there right after. I sat there for a minute and thought about my telling her OM=no contact. But, something told me I should go. So, I said something to the fact that I should come out because the kids havent seen her in a few days. We went out and all ate together. I swore I would remain reserved and just watch her. But from the moment I came in the door, she spent most of her time attending to me. She came up and held me for about 2 minutes when I first walked in. She showed me some pictures she had gotten developed that were taken like three years ago in our house. She was crying as she showed one my daughter had taken, with her and I sitting on the couch in front of the fireplace, holding each other and holding hands. Looking VERY content. I could see that the fog of what our past was had truly lifted. She had begun to see the past for what it really was. She said that she now had the picture mounted in her car, and on her notebook for school. That surprised me. We sat on the couch eating, and she kept trying to scoot closer to me. At one point, the kids were talking to her, and I sort of laid down on part of the couch and closed my eyes (this was my favorite couch…and the smells of my wife, hearing my kids laughing and talking to her…I was just soaking up with my eyes closed what was my past). She asked me to sit up and talk to her. HHmmmm. I was remaining aloof, but she was trying to engage me. As we talked, she talked about how sore she was and asked if I could give her neck a massage. I told her okay. This was a MAJOR thing in our marriage, for I loved giving massages and she loved getting. She made a comment that I am the ONLY one that even gives massages. Again, another dig at the OM. As I did this, I realized that certain hormonal things were welling up in me, if you know what I mean, so I told her that I needed to stop. And as a matter of fact, that we should go. She stated that she was also "challenged" in this area, and that it had been weeks since she had "had anything." She said she was hoping that "we would get this all back together because really wanted to be with me in that way." As I went to leave, I noticed a coffee mug in the sink with the logo of the OM's company. She saw what I was looking at and commented to me "it was free…I havent even talked to him in over a week." I just said "okay." And then we packed up to leave. As the kids headed out the door, she said she would call me today and then surprised me with a full blown kiss on the mouth. And then I left.

There is a lot more to all of this, and a lot more to the conversations (like her asking if I was going to get called out for Iraq or North Korea…and then commented that she couldn't do it again, that the last deployment she didn't handle well…of course, that was when she started the affair). But I am interested in what you think is going on and what to do. Am I doing okay here? What about the custody hearing in 8 days? She hasn't even mentioned it. I want to just go back to Plan B/D, but it seems that the limited Plan A I have sort of unwittingly done has been very effective. No LBs at all, except maybe for me drawing the boundaries. But even that seems to be working on her. So, what to do? Even if she is finally moving in this direction, it could just take the OM doing something nice and she might head back in the other direction. Does she really finally see out of the fog? Is she really working on this? Or is this just she isnt getting along with OM, and I am now filling ENs until things blow over (standard procedure over much of this affair)?

Comments please?

In His Arms.

<small>[ January 23, 2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

MM,

You need to recalibrate your targeting. The OM isn't the issue. While I agree with your stance that there can be nothing as long as he is in her life, the issue isn't the OM. It is here. This is like quiting smoking. When your W is ready to quit, she will. The OM cannot dictate when that will be, just remember he is losing her as well, and from the sounds of it has lost her. You cannot dictate when she will quit.

As for the hearings, quit worrying. They will occur in 8 days and your will be there to seek custody of your children. End of story not need to work about them happening. Just make sure you have your ducks lined up and good representation. So knock off the worry about this event.

Nothing major really major will happen in 8 days. She may decide to pitch OM over (actually I suspect that decision has already been made, he is toast <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). But as you said it will be awhile before you are comfortable enough or trust enough, I doubt it would happen in 8 days. So steady as she goes, Captain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As for the rest of it, I see great promise. She is right she needs to figure out why she did this. At first you may be the bad guy, but I think that phase is passing. Then she will be the bad person, and it will fade. Then finally a more accurate view of the events in her life will emerge. At that point you two can decide what to do.

I think you are right to maintain that boundary, but I also think she is coming out of the fog. The things you worked on during plan A need to be really polished up. I think you taking care of the children has really changed her view of you. I suspect it will take awhile, but don't worry: You can love her again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It is just going to be a question of each of you deciding what your goals are and what directions your lives should take. If they are along the same path, then this will work. If it is not, then I think you two will come to see the truth of it and mutually decide appropriately.

As for the divorce, keep it moving. She has made no promises, and few actions (BUT, there HAVE BEEN ACTIONS on her part). Not all of the actions you want but some. OM will be the last, because he has been her safety net. When she lets go of him, she is on the high wire with out a net. Pretty scary stuff. I suspect that is why she is sounding you out. If you haven't hardened yourself too much, I think she will let go of OM. He is NOT the love of her life.

But, as long as he is there, then things proceed. Even after he is gone, things may proceed until she is ready to address this. Remember she is in quite a crack: school, working, OM, You, and if she comes back the kids. She probably cannot carry all that is on her plate even if OM is scraped off into the garbage.

You will need to help ALOT. Tough stuff MM, but you know what? You have what it takes to do it.

God Bless,

JL

MM-

I am sitting here in my little cubicle with tears just streaming down my face......I have walked in your wife's shoes and I can tell you that I understand where she is at right now. She REALLY wants to come home, she is just VERY scared to do ANYTHING. Her family is becoming her focus again!

I agree with JL in that you should stay the course, but I also FEEL in my heart that this is the END of OM. I was very much like your wife in that it was hard for me to let go EVEN after I knew I wanted to walk away.....

The fact that you were feeling those certain stirrings is very telling. Would you have honestly felt that way if her motives were anything but sincere?

I am praying for you all. My heart was lifted by this post.

AS for the movie:

I was UTTERLY devastated by it. I couldn't not stop crying! I felt X's pain throughout the whole thing and I felt nothing but disgust for the person that I was during that time. Each time they raised the issues about the neglect of her son, I thought of my own children and it really killed me inside to see it from a "normal" person's point of view. I felt violated and dirty by the time it was over.

Strangely, I also gained hope at the conclusion of the movie. I saw that no matter what devastation had occurred, they could actually rise above it and really work together to make a better life. I saw how much LOVE that this man had for his wife, and she for him, and it reminded me of what X and I shared. I guess I looked at this from a hopeful point of view that WE still could get there.....even now.

Your story is REALLY amazing. I will be looking for more updates....

Hi MortarMan.

My humble opinion is for you to continue with the divorce.

I agree with Just Learning in that your WW has shown very little of the meaningful actions (no more contact with OM and a willingness to follow an MB style plan of action for marital recovery) that are needed to seriously consider dropping the divorce proceedings. She knows that time is running out on her and that her days as your wife are numbered, and so she is trying to soften your resolve by sharing emotionally intimate moments of your past prior to her A.

And finally her comment to you about not being able to handle another deployment like your last one, sent up a huge red flag that told me that you can not put your trust and faith in her as a wife committed to her marriage, for the forseable future. The last thing you need (if you get sent to war) is to have your mind obsessing about if your wife has gotten herself into another A and letting that put your life (and the lives of those that would depend on you) at risk in battlefield situations.

Keep us posted.

Hi MM,

I cannot add much to what the rest have said except that if you should be deployed, she needs to learn to live on her own, be content with herself and to be able to fulfill her own needs in your absence and accept what you are able to send from a distance as you attempting to fulfill her needs.

My H worked out of town for 9 months working. Not once was I unfaithful, never considered being unfaithful. He came home about once a month, or I went out to visit him. He called weekely and wrote weeekly. He usually came home, he wanted to see the kids too. I was too busy with my job, kids to have time to do anything else. It was while he was gone I decided to go back to school.

Good luck, I hope this all works out.

I think she was asking about friend because she wanted to know if she still had a chance with you. I think you did right at this time by not discussing friend. Friend is not the issue.

Okay...some major things yesterday, which I will update in a second. first, responses to the latest posts.

JL: I do know that the main issue is my wife, but OM is the stumbling block to any conversation, moving forward...anything. See my update below to see why With him in the picture at all, we are doomed to keep repeating the same crap. Except I no longer want to play this game anymore. Thus, I do not want contact with my wife. You are right about my wife though. It is just that as long as OM is even a factor, she cannot count on me for anything. And even days or weeks like the last two, will result in nights like last night..and we will be set back again. but see below what I am talking about.

Kily: Your situation has caused me great concern also. It is exactly what I didnt want here...that once she got her act straight, that I was gone and no longer wnated her...or someone else had entered my life and complicated things. You and your family are in my prayers also. I had forgotten how diane Lane had treated her son in that movie while the affair was on. You are right though. she really did let go of and risk everything for her "addiction."

Coffeeman: Yeah, my BS meter has continued to go off (and BS isnt betrayed spouse). I'm not sure if the comment about my possible deployment again was her showing that she would fall apart again, or her more saying that she was trying to get back to me and this timing sucked. Who knows? Believe me, I have thought about how I would handle a new deployment in the middle of reconciliation. You are right...my mind will be needed to be focused on the tasks at hand..otherwise people die. But see my post below about what happened yesterday, and then let me know what you think.

Sue: See my post below also because she talked more yesterday about her school, upcoming nursing career, etc. In short, she feels that OM was there and a huge reason why she made it thru school. But your story shows that a wife with kids, and a husband gone, could still make it thru school without shipping her kids off to her mom's and starting an affair. She has her first interview today for her first post-school job.

Update...

well, I might get hammered here for the way I handled things..but I actually feel good about standing up for myself. And unlike going off or sniveling in the past, this time I think my standing up had a different effect. Here it is

My wife calls yesterday, saying she is our getting ready for her interview on Friday. she said she wanted to stop by (normally she states she wants to stop by to "see the kids" but leaves that out this time...very interesting). she said she only had an hour (plus I had a class to go to at 7pm) and I said okay. She came by, spent all of 1 minute with the kids, and then came in the kitchen where I was making dinner to talk She grabbed a beer out of the fridge and began to tell me about her day and about her preparations for her interview. She kept hugging me, and kind of flirting. She wouldnt sit down at the table, but instead kept standing close to me as I made dinner, leaning against the counter. Anyway, the talk was pretty light (no R talk) and we seemed to be having a good time. I put dinner on the table and asked if she wanted to eat also. She said no, she wasnt hungry...and that she would hang out in the living room while the kids and I ate. we sat down to eat, and my daughter leaned over and asked "why is Mom here?" That shocked me. anyway, after about two minutes, she came back in and said she would eat with us and sat down. We all just ate, talked about school with the kids, etc. While this was going on, the phone rang and the caller ID showed it was my friend. This caused a little tension, so I asked my wife to go into another room to discuss something.

Once we got out of earshot of the kids, I told her that I loved her, thatthis was what I wanted. she started to go into the mantra (I am confused why she started back with the same old stuff because I hadnt even brought any of it up), which set me back. she said that her career was number one right now, and I had better get used to it. That she has had to count on herself over the last 9 months, and she cannot trust me to be there for her (huh? She LEFT! I supported her for 9 years before that. But lets go with her foggy statement). she said that she was surprised that the counselor I have been seeing (and that she starts seeing in two weeks) hasnt discussed the fact that this is a huge power struggle between her and I. She talked about being a housewife and mother and totally committing herself to me for 8 years, as "you went around and did what you wanted…and now I have nothing to show for it." So, I get from all of this that she is protecting herself, that she doesn't want to be I in a position where if she walked, she would be in a financial bind. More on this below in my response to her later last night

Anyway, I was getting increasingly upset by this and just cut her off. I told her "Look, I want a marriage. And for arguments sake, let's say everything you say about the past is true. Okay. I am talking about the future, not the past. You say I did what I wanted without consulting you. Well, if true, then why would you want to do the same to me if it was so wrong? Payback? Does that mean I can have a two year affair with someone now as payback to you? When does this all stop?"

I went on to say that I am talking about grace, about forgiveness...on both sides. I am talking about the future, not the past. But I said that it appears that she cant let go of that, and I am not going to be second tier in her priority list That I will be first, or not at all. She fired back that she wasn't first all those years. I told her that it wasn't true and was sick of the fog talk. But even if true, I am talking about the future.

I told her I wanted no more contact…that this just wasn't going to work. She kept trying to engage me, to ask me to stop and think about this. As we went to go back downstairs and leave, she asked me to rethink my position on NC, and that she would go home and think about what I had said. I told her I would think on it. She asked if she could still call me, to still have lunch with me after her interview today. I told her absolutely not.

Well, she left and I went to my meeting. I got out of the meeting an hour early, and the kids were still with my mom. I had thought about what she had said, and about how it appeared that she really was reaching out. And I knew she was at her apartment getting ready for the big interview So, I went and bought a rose, and a "good luck" card, and drove out to her place to put on her windshield, where she would find it in the morning. As I pulled up, guess who's truck was there? The OM. Well, I just couldn't stop myself and went upstairs and knocked on the door. My wife answered the door shocked. I told her that it was nice that she couldn't talk to me this evening because she was tired and had to get ready (what she had told me when she was over), but that now she was "entertaining." She mumbled something about that she was getting ready, ironing, etc. and that he had come over because she had talked to him earlier about her being upset (seems like the "safety net" JL was talking about above). I told her that I didn't care, that I REALLY want no contact. I think I said "Just please leave me alone." Then I think I called her a whore and walked out. I almost walked in and sat down with them, but that would not have ended very good.

Anyway, I picked up my kids and went home. About an hour and a half after when I had confronted her, she calls crying. She said the OM had left. I told her I didn't care she said nothing had happened, and hasn't happened in awhile. That he just came over because she was upset about our talk earlier and needed to talk (again, the safety net). She again reiterated that nothing physical had happened, that she has only been thinking about me in that way for awhile. I again said, I didn't care, that talking to him was the same as having sex with him. That I just wanted her to leave me alone. She said she just wanted me to know that I was making a big mistake. I just told her to not call again. And then I hung up.

Well, she calls at 6:50 this morning, 5 minutes before walking into work. She tells me she wants to call after her interview. I said "no." She said she would anyway. She said she had thought on the things that I had said earlier at my place the night before. I didn't let her go into it, cutting her off and saying that I didn't want to hear it. I told her I had sat up all night thinking and realized that she has never and never could commit to her vows. That she continues to justify what she did as "the marriage was over because you ignored me, hurt me, etc." I said the marriage is never over, no matter what the other does. And I had proven that thru this adultery. I told her that I wanted someone committed to "sicker, poorer, worse, forsaking all others, until DEATH do us part…not until I am unhappy do us part." I told her she is incapable of giving me, or anyone else that. She tried to defend herself by saying she was human and had made a mistake, but I cut her off again by saying "Yeah, some mistake. If you believed it was a mistake, he wouldn't have been at your apartment last night." She said she was trying to "wind things down." I told her that was crap, that he was either gone or he wasn't. She then said she had to go into work but wanted to call me after the interview. I again told her not to bother. She said she would anyway, and that she wished I would rethink what I am saying and doing…that she had thought a lot about what I had said last night.

Okay, sorry for the blow-by-blow, but we are really at a crossroads here and I want you to get the flavor of what is going on here. I know some will say that she is making her move back, that she is really trying and I now need to back off. But I tell you what, nights like last night just make me want to run.

Let me have it!

In His Arms.

<small>[ January 24, 2003, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

MM,

Well, you could have said some more "politically correct" things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But, I also know that if I had been in your shoes, and she started with the "you didn't support me for 7 years stuff", I would have given her a very short message, " F off and Leave." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Good thing you aren't me, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

That said, I do think you need to hear her out. She is going to have to talk this stuff out, to hear how really stupid it is. I think your response about the future was dead on, and she needed to hear it. She cannot hear it if you don't talk with her.

Just remember, the meter is running and it isn't your meter. It is her meter. You can afford to listen to her because you have come to accept either outcome. She is about to lose big time.

You were very correct in your statement about marriage and what you feel it means, but more importantly YOUR actions have backed it up. Her's have not. That is the point.

Let her talk, but only actions count. Her actions last night aren't surprising. I mean she is talking to you and she is getting hurt by it. So she ran to OM to "talk" whatever. At this point it doesn't matter. But the reason it hurts is you are much more right than wrong and she knows it.

So TALK with her. It will help you in the long run. This is the endgame MM, don't tip over your king and leave now.

God Bless,

JL