Mortarman,

There comes a time in this situation that the betrayed realizes continued effort on their part simply inflicts upon themselves more pain and distress.

The adulterous or adulterer must EARN the right through actions (words are without value) to return. The proverbial ball is now completely in her court and who she is and what her intentions are shall be revealed now by her actions only. I applaud the directness of your actions.

Mortarman,

I’ve been following your story…this is the 1st time I’ve posted to you as I don’t feel I have too much to offer.
But, I felt compelled to write this time. I agree with you telling your W that you can’t have contact with her. You can’t. She can’t keep dragging your heart around on the ground while she is still talking or whatever with the OM.
You have children together. You can’t keep going through this.
I agree that she has to prove it to you BIG TIME if there is to be any reconciliation for the two of you, BUT that means that she has to cut off ALL CONTACT with the OM. You are right when you say that while talking to him she might as well be having sex with him.

When I read your words my heart aches for you and for what my H has been going through. I’ve never left the house and he feels he has no love for me anymore. I had a EA that turned into a one time PA. I pray each day for my husbands heart to soften a little.

I pray for you.

MM-

BRAVO!

I think that given the circumstances you REALLY handled yourself well! Look at how far you've come. I'm sure there was a time where you would have smashed a tail light in or a head or something.....Now, you've shown everyone the GRACE that you have learned on this journey.

JL is right, sit back and let her dig her hole a little further, or dig herself out! YOU have NOTHING to lose anymore and everything to gain, either way. If it turns out that she is once again "playing" you, you can sit back in amusement at just how meesed up her mind is.

I still believe that she is working her way out of the FOG. I think that her wake-up call just happened with your reaction to this last go around. I can assure you that she is NOT sleeping at night.

I also want to thank you for two things.

The first is that your sharing this makes me see exactly what my X went through when he finally decided to throw in the towel and move on. I had a hard time accepting that he was able to find LOVE with someone else so quickly, but in looking at your sitch. I am seeing things differently. I pushed him to the point that you finally have reached, and I can completely understand why he walked away. I did come to regret my choices, and I live with the knowledge that it could have been different. I admire the both of you for holding yourselves together and rising ABOVE the pain and suffering in your lives.

Secondly, I work with a young man (21) that is a Reservist. He was married a little less than 1 year ago. About two weeks ago he was called into active duty to a base in New York. Originally he was only supposed to be gone for a month but yesterday, they found out that he was being sent overseas. I'm sharing this with you because it has really affected me. I look at the people on this board like you and CityDweller, and I am in awe that you sacrafice everything to protect our country. I guess I just wanted to say "THANKS" and that you deserve to have the family that you desire.

God Bless You. My prayers are with you and your family.

I dont think she is trying to move back towards you or the marriage. She is trying to maintain control over you. This is her habit, her game plan. Actions speak louder than words...how can she gush all over you, flirt, etc and then be even in the prescence of the other man? She is doing exactly what she wants when she wants. One thing she is right about...Think about what youre saying. You are telling her all the right things. For once you are sticking to your guns telling her actions speak louder than words. I wouldnt have advised you to call her a whore but I think showing what level she has sunk to in your estimation when she acts like this is a dose of reality she badly needs.

Also you have to get your kids off this roller coaster. They are smart. If you think it is hard on you to be in around her and act all happy imagine your powerless children. One day mom is all kisses the next she is back with her boyfriend. They know your rules for being married. She is not in any manner even close. She has made her choice. Not the OM just another life. A life of lies, anger, manipulation...how can any mother say her career is first...I am sorry to be harsh but this just burns me...Her career PU-LEES!!!

I am glad you are standing up to her. She seems to view sex as her big power. She thinks you shouldnt be upset because nothing physical happened and that you are in her thoughts. Who cares?!? Adultery is beyond the physical act of sex...it is betrayl, abandoment and withdrawl. Even the coffee mug that sits in her kitchen is an affront to your marriage. If she understood or cared about the gravity of her actions she would extricate everything in relation to her behavior from her life.

I know God hate's divorce...but God wants people to have priorities too...Our first priority is to put God first...your wife as she now is threatens that relationship. She is a bad example to her children and she malign's her husband. You have done everything humanly possible.

One thing that is important to recognize and digest...the OM has done terrible things no question...but your wife makes her own choices. He, the OM, is not doing this to your lives, she is. I am convinced if it werent this guy it would be someone else. She has got a chip on her shoulder and a why me attitude. You cannot change that.

I was impressed when you wrote about the person she now is. This is so important to grasp. My husband could say all the right things...but the person he was day in and day out was detrimental to me. Once I said no more and meant it, he changed. Not everyone does. I spent years waiting for change and it drained me. I plan B'd him before I had an inkling as to what that was. And he has spent everyday since proving to me he is what I need him to be. I gave him no demands. I was done. Not as a ploy or a manipulation. I was done. I see you getting to that point. This is not to say that one day she is not going to truly realize her mistakes and make changes. The truth of the matter is, she is not moving towards your marriage, nor is she moving towards the OM. She told you herself...she is putting herself first...this is the truest thing she has said.

...Wives do not do this.

Listen to your instincts...she is drawing you into a mess. Protect your children. Protect yourself. I think you have done well. Continue.

continuing prayers,

ayslyne

MM,

She just keeps luring you off track with an artificial carrot. But she is not patient enough to pull it off successfully and continues to reveal her true self, ie: continued contact with the OM, professed committment to career instead of family, same old rationalizations and accusations. Round and round we go. I hope you stick to your guns this time, MM, and stick to Plan B.

She seems to enjoy pulling you off track of your Plan B only to slap you in the face when she reveals that she is in no way serious about your marriage. I suspect that asylyne is onto something when she suggests that your W is just doing this crap to stay in control. I can think of no other reason because she is certainly not serious about her marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ayslyne:

"I dont think she is trying to move back towards you or the marriage. She is trying to maintain control over you. This is her habit, her game plan. Actions speak louder than words...how can she gush all over you, flirt, etc and then be even in the prescence of the other man? She is doing exactly what she wants when she wants." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MelodyLane:

"She just keeps luring you off track with an artificial carrot. But she is not patient enough to pull it off successfully and continues to reveal her true self, ie: continued contact with the OM, professed committment to career instead of family, same old rationalizations and accusations. Round and round we go. I hope you stick to your guns this time, MM, and stick to Plan B.

She seems to enjoy pulling you off track of your Plan B only to slap you in the face when she reveals that she is in no way serious about your marriage. I suspect that asylyne is onto something when she suggests that your W is just doing this crap to stay in control. I can think of no other reason because she is certainly not serious about her marriage."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MortarMan I beleive you should heed the words of these two wise ladies.

Mortar, you know I've followed your saga for a while, and for one I am very proud of your attitude as late, I think you have been pulling it off.
Second, I have to agree with the rest of wise Mbers when they say she has control issues. She wants the bachellorette/family life, and she is going to do whatever it takes to keep you pinning for her, it doesn't matter who she hurts, not even the kids, it is all "me me me me and in the end ME" on her head. She doesn't give a peep to anything else.

Go ahead with custody hearing and everything else, she has to realize that she cannot have her cake, eat it too and have no consequences for her actions.

Be strong Mortar, you are fighting for your kids, for you, your wife has to fight for herself, nobody can help her now but herself. You are a great soldier, you can do this.

MM,

I forgot to ask you a very important question. What did you do with the rose and the card? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Did you give them to her.

I hope your weekend goes better. You could view this as just another SNAFU. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I was thinking about some of the ladies posts. In someways they differ from my thinking except for Kily's. I wonder if this is because they are ladies and see things from a woman's point of view. While us guys, sort of want to cut the WW more slack. It makes me wonder if I am missing something here.

But, I think we are all offering the same advice at the base level: steady as she goes.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Things are happening so rapidly, I do not have time to keep up. I will respond to the latest posts and then another update.

JL: I have hammered home to her that it is all fine and good to talk, but ACTIONS are all I care about now. I have left the communications line open, although I am not really communicating in her direction. What I mean by that is that, besides the kids, I am not seeking out conversation or communication with her. I do not email, I do not call, except dealing with the kids. That being said, when she calls, I do listen and do respond appropriately. Always sticking to my guns, but also being honest and as open as I can. What a change over what has gone on over the last 9 months! If only I had the strength and knowledge to implement all of this when I came home from Bosnia in April, I think this would have been over a long time ago. But, better late then never, right? Anyway, even finding the OM at her apartment did not affect me like it used to. While I was angry and upset, it was controlled And I was rather calm. I really impressed myself in how easily I stayed calm and stuck to my guns. And most importantly, did not do anything stupid and did not really LB (except for the "whore" comment). No, I did not give the rose or card to her At first, when I saw the truck there, I was driving away and threw them out the window. Then I turned around and went back. So, they are probably sitting alongside the road somewhere. I also have noticed the difference in the ladies' posts and the guys. The gals seem to be MUCH harder on the wayward wives, especially the gals that are on here that are betrayed wives. I will respond to them below, though. It is very interesting though. Might be something someone needs to study.

Vision Cubed: Thanks for the post! You are exactly right. I am finally out of the pain and I REFUSE to go back in. Maybe this is the biggest motivating factor for my continuing to stick to my guns. I will never again allow myself to be in a position to feel like I did over the last 9 months. My wife will earn her way back through her actions, or she will find herself divorced and maybe without her kids fulltime. It is her choice...and her consequences should she continue to make bad choices.

Livingwithhope: You and Kily are both former wayward wives, and your insight is quite valuable to me. I have continued to harp on the fact that as long as she makes contact with him, even talking, it is the same as having sex with him. She tries to equate her contact now with him as the same as the contact I have had with this new friend. But I continue to tell her that I have not had an intimate relationship with her, unlike her and OM. And thus, any contact with him is continuing that intimate relationship. After being intimate, you cannot JUST be friends! I am glad to hear that you see all of this and I continue to pray for you and your family and that your husband is able to soften his heart and allow you to again to be the wife that he deserves.

Kily: You also are in my prayers, and I hope your X will wake up to the fact of your love. See below my update, because there is a defining moment that happened after I found OM at my wife's apartment…one where every BS must come to if they truly will allow their wayward spouses to be whole again. While I now recognize this, it will remain to be seen if I am able to follow this. But again, read below. I know what the fog does, and I have anguished over the fact that I was afraid that the moment I had moved on, would be the day that the fog cleared. It appears this happened with your X. It seems timing is everything. Your thanks for me and others like me in the military is much appreciated and I take it to heart. While people in the military do not make a lot of money, it is comments such as yours that show us that our sacrifices are not in vain. I have actually been working on a book on what happened to my family because of 9/11 and the deployment and the affair. It's about halfway done, and I am still waiting to see how things turn out so I can finish the ending. I actually have a book publisher that is interested in seeing a manuscript. So, we'll see. Your reservist in your office will have a tough road. Even more so than active duty members, because his day-to-day reality is not the military. And his new wife will wonder what she got herself into. As my commanding general said right before our deployment, that this would be the ultimate test for marriages. Any of them on the fence would be pushed off, one way or another. Studies have shown with all these deployments, that divorce rates, adultery, etc have risen to between 60-75% in the military. Counseling services are being overwhelmed. There is something much worse than death that these soldiers are sacrificing…time with family, and maybe even the destruction of marriages. Some reservists are forced to leave jobs that make two and three times as much as they make being put on active duty, and the families left behind are left with a financial nightmare. All of this goes unreported. But they still sign up, and they still go. I feel lucky to be surrounded by what I consider as some of the greatest Americans I have ever met.

Ayslyne: You keep me straight. I too am taking the position that this is just a game, although something in me tells me there is a difference this time. And maybe, it is me staying on my guns and not giving in that is allowing that to foster this time...to allow the fog to lift. Who knows? JL is right…I have nothing to lose here. Stick to my guns and watch actions. If she breaks thru the fog, then we can see what we have and if we can put it together. If not, then nothing has changed anyway and I am already prepared for that outcome. The kids are ssoooo much better now since Dad has got his act straight. And I will not put them back on that rollercoaster. Keep on keeping me straight. Everyone here is really helping now to keep me focused, and may be me finally instituting the MB principles fully, and sticking to my guns, that is allowing God to pull her out of the fog. We shall see. But, as you said, I will not be drawn back in. Actions will speak, or I will continue to move on.

Melodylane: You and Asylyne are in agreement. And I do hear you. Read my update below and see how thinks are going. I remain focused I have a plan and will stick to it, no matter what As JL said, her meter is running, not mine. I can now just sit back and watch.

TMCM: Since you were dittoing what they were saying above, I will just follow with a ditto also.

Alostwife: You are another that has been beside me thru this. And you are right on. I am surprised by my strength and resolve now. I will not go back to the pain.

Now for the update….

Well, when I last left you, my wife was supposed to call after her interview. One note that I left out before…when I left her apartment after finding OM there, I called his cell and left a message it basically told him that he needed to get a "handle on his woman" and get her away from me. I told him what she had been saying about him, about the terrible time she had in Florida, and that I didn't want to hear it anymore. And that I am surprised that he would let "his woman" talk about him that way. When my wife called back after he left, she said she was somewhat angry with me because she did not want me telling the OM the things I did…that they were between her and I.

Anyway, she called me Friday afternoon after her interview. She kicked butt and got the job. Which is great, and it is what we always wanted for her and us. She will come straight out of school working in a major hospital's ER. This part of her I am very proud of and have told her so. When she called, I was sort of standoffish, but did congratulate her. She said she would call later, as I just sat there and remained silent for most of the conversation. It was kind of hard because we had waited so long for her to get to this point, and deep down I was excited as she was about this. But I did not let it out. After she got off the phone, I called OM again and left a message, telling him that "his woman" was calling me again when I told her not to and he needed to get a handle on her.

Well, my wife calls Saturday morning and asks to speak to the kids. She says it in a way where I know OM has talked to her about my calls. I said "I guess you talked to OM." She said yeah, and she only wanted to talk about the kids because "I don't want you making anymore phone calls." I told her that I was impressed on his ability to get a handle on her (I know…this was an LB, but I could not resist!) I then said that she knows what I want and what I expect. I let her talk to the kids and we got off the phone.

I had promised her early in the week when things were going well that I would fix her windshield wiper that OM had left undone from the month before. I had already bought $60 worth of parts earlier in the week, and had planned to fix it in the hospital parking lot where she worked, while she worked on Saturday. So, even though things had turned for the worse, I kept my word, and went over to fix it. On the way, the kids and I stopped at Target to get some things for the house. We passed the card section (where I had bought the good luck card on Thursday) and something inside me told me to buy a congratulation card. The kids got one from each of them also. My oldest son then suggested we get this CD that I just bought for myself. So, we got all of that, and headed to the hospital. The kids sat in the car next to me, with my oldest helping me by handing me tools. I fixed her windshield wiper in about 20 minutes, put the cards and CD in her car, as well as a letter that I had written that morning, which again stated my position and that she was running out of time. As we went to leave, my daughter suggested we give her flowers also because of her getting the job. So we walked into the hospital, right past where she works (she didn't see us) and bought some flowers in the gift shop and put them in her car.

Well, I got a call that evening from her crying. She had left a message right before getting a hold of me, one directed to all of us. She thanked all of us for the gifts and cards, and stated how proud she was to have us as a family. When we talked later, she told me of another nurse who was leaving when she did and how she showed her what we had done. She told me that was so happy with what we had done and that we had even bothered to congratulate her. She said "no one else had" (another dig at the OM). We talked a little while about how we were now getting to the point in all of our plans that we had when we got married, that everything was now coming to fruition. She continued to ask me for patience with her as she tries to get things straight.

Sunday, she had a flood in her apartment, and had to tend to that most of the day, plus a study group for a major test she had this week. So, we talked briefly on the phone, with me again keeping aloof. Through the last two weeks, she has called me (or tried to call me) 2-3 times a day. Everytime I have pulled back from her, she has tried to re-engage me. I can see her effort at trying to keep me from pulling away. She wants the talk, the conversation. We will see why soon, I hope. It could be to just keep me in the game, but again, she is making no demands so I am not sure what she is gaining. The custody hearing is this Friday, and she has not mentioned for me to stop it. She could also be trying to keep me there as she gets rid of OM, gets her counseling and tries to come back in her own way Who knows? But again, I stayed aloof and let her talk.

Yesterday, I get a call from her in the early morning again. She talked for almost an hour. I mentioned how I wasn't sleeping much again. She asked why. I told her the end of my marriage was coming up in 5 days. She said that this was just a custody hearing, not the end of our marriage. I told her that I knew things would get nasty there. Plus, there are things going on that she does not know about that will happen shortly after the hearing. The big one is a church court, which will declare her spiritually dead, and declare our marriage over. That will happen within the next three weeks. Once that happens, in God's eyes, we are divorced and all I have to do is wait on the final legal proceedings. In my heart, I have said I would wait until the custody hearing for her to respond. And then I would push hard for the church divorce And once that happened, there is NO WAY I would ever consider saving my marriage or getting it back. But, although I have mentioned taking her before the church, she does not know that this is already in action. She will find out after Friday.

So, she was somewhat hurt when I said my marriage was over after this hearing. I really believe she thinks that even with this hearing, that she has more time. She talked about something that her mom has mentioned to me as of late. That all of this was about independence, about doing this on her own. She was in college and pregnant at 22. She lived as a single mother with her Mom until I met and married her She has been supported by me ever since. With all of the problems we have had, there were those around us that did not approve of her staying home and taking care of husband and children. This began to weigh on her So, when I left for Bosnia, the barn door was sprung open to her to I guess almost have something like a mid-life crisis. She told me she now knows that she can make it. That she can do something on her own. I left it alone, not wanting to point out she gave up all of her responsibilities to do it Or to point out that she could have still done this (through a temporary separation) without committing adultery. But she seemed to be opening up, so I kept my mouth shut. See everyone…Mortarman can learn! But she went on to say that she really does want her life back. She wants what I said about being a wife and mother. She wants to put her husband #2 in her life, right behind God. She wants what she had. I told her this was what I wanted to hear, but I still would not accept it without corresponding actions. She stated that she was ending things with OM, and that she was trying to figure out how to do it. Her mom had told me previously that my wife did not have the skills to end things. Never has. That is why my MIL emailed me Friday, asking me to hang in there while my wife seeks counseling (she starts on her own next week).

Anyway, the conversation went well, with both of us talking about the past and how good we had it. How people were "sickened" by how in love we were, and how perfect our relationship was. She talked about her low self-esteem undermining everything, and the biggest factor of why she did what she did. That even though she has destroyed so much, she has also proven to herself that this low self-esteem is bunk. I told her again that she was running out of time. That she had decisions to make ver y soon. That I had to know that she truly believed in her vows, that they were for life. And without knowing and feeling that, that I would not let her back in. She tried to explain about OM coming over, that she had called him after our excahnge at my place Thursday, that she was upset, and that he had decided to come over (she said she didnt ask him to do that). She said she didnt even want him there and that he had left shortly after I did. Again, this was new because in the past, she wouldnt talk about these things with me or try to explain them.

So, this is where we sit. In 4 days, I go to custody hearing. It will not go well, I know because my lawyers is an a$$ and he will show no mercy on her I don't even think she has any representation (she cant afford any). Then she will get contacted by the church the next week, and off we go. Timing here sucks because if she is truly coming around, these events will be major LBs. But, I will not stop this again. I am at a crossroads, and it is time for her to be an adult. I will post later about another dilemma but suffice it to say that even if she is coming back, I am no longer sure I can overcome the betrayal…that I could ever believe her and believe in her again. This is something I am questioning in me now.

So, everyone keep me straight. I feel like I have really come a long way and have done mostly the right things over the last month. It is not time to make any tactical errors. The war is almost over.

In His Arms.

<small>[ January 28, 2003, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

MM-

The only question I have is "What is holding you back from telling her about the church divorce?" How is the temple "D" going to affect your role there? I was LDS before the age of 9 and do not recall most of the details....

Personally, I feel that her knowledge of this might give her the final "push" that she needs to cut the safety net of OM. Let her see the nails that are about to seal her coffin. Let her see the hammer that will strike the final blow. Tell her one last time, do this or I'm done.......

My instincts are STILL screaming that she wants to come back. I understand where you are at in this, and support your point of view 100%! I only feel this way because of my own feelings at this same turning point. I can see VERY clearly the exact dynamics going on and I just want to call your wife and say: "It's NOW or NEVER!!"

Also it ocurred to me to ask you something. You stated that she said she wanted to end it with OM but didn't know how. This is also something I went through. Might I ask you to have one more conversation about this and tell her that you will help her write the NC letter, and mail it with her? Let her know that you will be there and that it is okay to do this. She needs to be reassured that it is okay to so this because she is feeling guilty and accountable. She doesn't want to inflict pain on him, and she knows that once the letter is sent, she has to face the damage that she caused. This is more FOG stuff, but, it's the kind of FOG stuff that you WANT to see. It's the hardest step a WS has to make towards recovery.

I posted something on my thread today that touched on this...

I admire the way that you have taken control of the situation and have been contact OM! That is just too good. I truly believe that no matter WHAT happens, you can walk away guilt free.

My prayers are with you and yours.....

I will be sitting on the edge of my chair for an update. My co-worker left for VA. on Saturday. He will be missed.

<small>[ January 28, 2003, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Kily: One of the biggest reasons I havent told her that the church divorce has started is that I am trying to keep as much animosity down going into things on Friday at the custody hearing. Part of me is afraid that if she knows that the hammer is ready to come down, that she will feel cornered and we know how people fight when they are cornered. if she thinks her marriage will still be there after the hearing, she may not fight as hard.

Also, I dont want her making decisions based on timelines and ultimatums. I want her to want to come back...period. That is why I said once it starts, I probably wont want to stop it, since I will not really know her motivations. That is why I have re-engaged her over the last two weeks when she started approaching me again. except for not having any real contact in a over 3 weeks, I had not let on to anything going on when she started calling (she hadnt even gotten served with the custody hearing paperwork until a few days after we started talking again). So, a big part of me believes that she is genuine in trying to figure out what is going on. The problem here is that she doesnt know that she has a lot less time on her meter than she thinks.

Kily and MortarMan,

I have been reading this thread and all of MM's threads. I find this situation very disturbing and I keep wanting to tell MM to stop, she is going to come around. Then I am reminded of the past. I look at his time line on the tagline, and realize she has had many chances to come back. He has in fact be told a variety of times she is back only to find out a week later that she has changed her mind.

Then I look at the timing, and I see that her "efforts" are always around the time that divorce hearings are occuring, and so is the two week "revelation".

So I think it is steady as she goes MM. I think this will end up in divorce. I don't see any other way for it to end. I hope you get full custody of the kids and that you are generous with your visitation. I think your W needs a taste of "freedom". As you pointed out, you met her when she was a single mother, and I suspect you looked like an easy out for her situation.

Having said all of this MM, I would like to suggest that you read Kily's and Hopeful_Person, H_P's posts carefully. If I could control you mind and heart it would be so that you do leave a spot for your W in it. Because I suspect that she just might "enjoy" her freedom all she wants in a very short time and then she will truely realize what she has lost.

MM, I think you need to consider strongly the posibility that you and W will remarry and perhaps should remarry. I know she will have to court you. I know you are hurt badly and want to move on. I know this is very complicated. But I know something else: PEOPLE OFTEN DO LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES.

I don't think your W will enjoy her "career" as much as she thinks, and I suspect that it being #1 will lose its appeal very soon.

I also don't see how she can convince you in the remaining time that she has changed. She is at least being honest about that. She is struggling and she doesn't want to lose the marriage. She will lose it and then an interesting set of choices will confront her. Some fight to keep from losing something because they are afraid of losing it, but don't really want it bad either. Once it is lost, they simply walk away and find something else to do with their life. Others, truely learn what they lost. Grieve over the loss, and willing to do the hard work to get it back.

I don't know which camp your W is in. But if she is in the later, please give her a chance. It would make ME feel better if you could see your way to leave a place for her. I really hate to see this end the way it is going.

Give it 6 months after the divorce. Leave a place at the table for her, and see if she wants to come back. My feeling is that if she does, you will have a W that truely wants to be there with you and your family. A W that finally appreciates many things about you she never did before. It is hard to do better than that MM.

Some things to think about.

God Bless,

JL

Mortarman,

I need to tell you that your &#8220;self-control&#8221; in your situation is amazing to me. I don&#8217;t know of too many husbands that would handle things the way that you have. When my H found out about my infidelity it was already over. (I told him) If he had to deal with what you are dealing with I can tell you I would have been long forgotten about.

That said, I think you are doing the right things. Our situations are different in that I never really left home. I did move in with my mom for 2 weeks when this happened but other than that I have always been home. I, too, at one time believed that OM and I could be friends. Why couldn&#8217;t we? Well, I soon learned that this just isn&#8217;t possible. As I look back on things I said and did I can&#8217;t believe it. I never realized the pain I was putting my family through.

Sadly, your wife will figure all of this out&#8212;but unfortunately, it may be too late. I know that we are all human and make many mistakes in our lives, but you are going to be one good man for another woman someday.

Thanks for praying for my family. We have made some progress. Just last night my H finally agreed to couples counseling. I hope we are now on the road to something other than &#8220;life in limbo&#8221;.

Keep up your good work, you are definitely in my thoughts. Keep us posted, too!

MM-

Here is a link for my stuff. It has EVERYTHING to date.....There is a lot here in just 5 months.....I hope that this helps.....

Kily's Links

JL: I appreciate what you are saying, and I am in agreement with you. My problem is ME. Once I decide my marriage is over, once I go through the act of dissolving it, and looking forward to a new life, then that will be it. I remain in this marriage now because of my children and my vows. Once released from those vows, no matter how much I love my wife, I cannot allow her that space in my heart. And I cannot allow for a reconciliation. It is the way I am built. It is hard enough now to consider trusting her again, and believing in her and her ability to live up to her vows. But once the vows are gone, there is nothing "forcing" me to reconcile and to consider her again. And I know I wont.

I know others have gotten back together after divorce, but this is not possible with me That is why I have fought so hard, and my problem now. Because timing is everything here, and events are about to overwhelm my wife, if she is indeed trying to get it back. One note: this new approach by her started before she knew anything about church court or about the custody hearings, so I am unsure what prompted this. it was definitely not by any of my actions (read the original post on this thread).

I wish I could do as you have asked, but that is not in me. Once I let go of my wife, especially in my heart, I cannot consider her again. And I must let go if I am to move on. This has gone on for 19 months. It will be two years once the divorce is finalized (September) The only way I can maintain her in my heart is to continue to hold out for her for the 6 months after the divorce, and not let anyone in...to stay committed to a marriage that no longer exists. That will put me a year from now before I can consider an intimate relationship with anyone, and 2 1/2 years will have passed since I have had that. There is just no way I can do this. I was 37 when she started the affair, and this would put me over 40 when I finally could move on with my life. So, no...I am sorry. Waiting is not possible. Reconciliation is not possible after divorce. Not for me..no matter how much I love her, and no matter the fact that she may have found the woman I fell in love with At some point, it is too late...and the divorce will be it. And really, the church divorce that will happen over the next month will be the one, not the legal. So really, september is a moot point...it is more like March when this marriage is officially over forever.

<small>[ January 28, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

MM,

I can certainly understand your point of view. I suspect I might well share it if I were in your place. Since the divorce date is September, I hope your W makes good on her time. But the church date is much closer, and I suspect that you feel that it will be over then. I hope not.

Why am I saying all of this? You mention that you ar nearing 40. I am roughly 20 years older. I will tell you that your 40's and 50's can be great times especially if you are with the right person. I suspect that right person may be the woman you are married to now.

I know the love is rapidly going away. I know you are fighting hard now because when this is over there will be no more fight. But, my point is to not close the door on your W. Yes, a NEW love would have to develop on your part. Yes, that could take time. Yes, you have a lot of bad memories to overcome, but you also have some good memories as well, not to mention children.

I surely cannot fault you logic or your feelings and we may be discussing something that never even shows up on the horizon, somehow I suspect it will.

When you read H_P's post, you may be seeing your W in a year. Read it carefully and as much as it hurts, don't you think that she is a woman that has her stuff together? I do. Read Kily's posts and see how much she has changed and grown. Wouldn't she be worth a look if you were single <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I think so.

My point MM is that right now you see the worst in your W. But clearly you saw something that was very good in her or you wouldn't have married her. She is a mess right now. But, my bet is that she is going to learn a lot as these other two ladies have done. THEN, we are talking a whole other ballgame. Yes, a new marriage would have to grow. I am not saying put your life on hold after your divorce, I am saying give it 6 months which you should do no matter what, to sort out your stuff and heal from this mess. You owe it to any woman to sort yourself out once this is over before entering any other relationship. Even the woman you are talking to.

My point is that your W just may not fold like a house of cards when all of this lands. There just may be enough in her to admit her failings and TRY to make things right. If that is the case, and it is only an IF right now, I strongly recommend you give it a shot.

Time is on your side MM. You don't need to hurry into someone else's arms. Don't close down all or any of your posssible options. You may lose more than you think.

I realize that talking about this now is premature. I realize the mindset you are in and need to be in to do what appears has to be done, BUT a good military man is flexible to the changes that occur in the field. Do that with your heart as well. It is clearly a big one, do not freeze up part of it to protect yourself.

I know right now there is little about her you like . And if there is little or no change there will be little about her you like. THen this isn't even an issue. But, changes do happen as you well know. Let them happen in you as well. A generous heart is great thing MM.

Just something for you to think about since you don't have much else on your mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> One step at a time, but don't say "never" OK? You are changing as well.

God Bless,

JL

MM,

I am not exceptionally well versed in LDS church doctrine. However, I don't believe that you can petition for a temple divorce until the civil divorce is final. The hearing that you are referring to would likely involve termination of membership (excommunication). Note that this not meant necessarily to be punitive. If a person chooses not to live up the thier covenants, excommunication provides a release from those covenants. Thus reducing the level of sin.

MM,

Here is H_P's initial thread. It is long but I hope it helps. H_P's posts

I do understand you point of view, and I understand H_P's exH's point of view or at least suspect I would if he voiced it.

But, let me tell you one of the reasons I still read and post here. You may or may not have read about K. He began counseling with Steve Harley and involved with Marriagebuilders since before there was a web site. You can find his short story if you were to search the "why Women leave men" section for his name.

His W had an affair and became pregnant from that affair. He sort of suspected this might happen and I am sure was crushed by this, but he said something that has had a profound affect on my life and how I now look at things. He stated he viewed her pregnancy by the OM as an OPPROTUNITY to show his W how much he loved her. Can you believe that? Betrayed in the worst way, and it is an opportunity?????

I have thought many times about statement. I have thought about my military training. My management training and they all say the same time. You often don't get a good opportunity but when one arises take it. And the best commanders and leaders see opportunities where none appear to exist.

As I have read thousands of posts here, I see this line of thinking as more and more profound. I see people seeking an OPPORTUNITY to show their spouse how deep there love really is for them. Seeking an OPPORTUNITY to redeem themselves and the mistakes they have made. All they want is the OPPORTUNITY.

What do you want? I can guess. You want to be happy. You want to share your life with someone you deeply love and loves and respects you. You want to share your kids achievements, life, the good parts of life with someone. You don't want to have to worry whether they will do you in when you are at your weakest. You want them to allow you to love them and help. All of these things that we all want.

But, interestingly most marriages seem to fail because one of the spouses feels that the other doesn't love them. When really all it would have taken is for one of them to have been given an OPPORTUNITY to show it. It doesn't seem to happen very often. Life is sort of hum drum, sort of boring, and very repetitious.

If you and your W end up divorcing, and she comes to her senses as Kily or H_P have done and ask for another chance, MM you will be given something that few people ever get: An OPPORTUNITY, to make someone very very happy. To have a good life and hopefully the life you really wanted. To forgive as our religions beseeches us to do. To make your kids happy. And to give your spouse a chance to right the wrongs she has done. Of all of the gifts this OPPORTUNITY would be it would be to allow her to address what she so far hasn't been able to.

I know what you are saying. In fact, before reading what K wrote years ago on this site, you wouldn't be hearing a peep out of me. It still may be that this arguement is moot. But, MM if you are given an OPPORTUNITY don't blow it with pride, a wounded heart. Seize it! You will never regret it.

A few people that have asked about me have asked what am I 'Just Learning'. Well, I have told one of the things I just learned while in my 50's. You would be wise to learn it in your 30's. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> If you are given the OPPORTUNITY to do the right thing, do it.

Something more for you to think about. I am not helping you am I? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Making things harder for you aren't I? I am sorry for that. You deserve the best, I just think the best may lie in places you don't want to see it.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong> I also have noticed the difference in the ladies' posts and the guys. The gals seem to be MUCH harder on the wayward wives, especially the gals that are on here that are betrayed wives.
In His Arms.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its because "a woman can always fool a man, but she can NEVER fool another woman!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ January 29, 2003, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>Kily and MortarMan,

I have been reading this thread and all of MM's threads. I find this situation very disturbing and I keep wanting to tell MM to stop, she is going to come around. Then I am reminded of the past. I look at his time line on the tagline, and realize she has had many chances to come back. He has in fact be told a variety of times she is back only to find out a week later that she has changed her mind.

Then I look at the timing, and I see that her "efforts" are always around the time that divorce hearings are occuring, and so is the two week "revelation".

JL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM, See, it is not just the women who think this. JL also is thinking the exact same thing we are. Namely, that she throws you a bone whenever the heat is on and then completely backs off once she has you where she wants you. She is like Lucy holding the football and you are Linus who ends up on his face everytime.