Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>..... I have some questions:

1) How do I let him run himself ragged?</strong>

L: Stay out of his A way. Don't put yourself in the position to enable the A in any way shape or form. Let the OWs meet his needs. He calls for the S word..... or has some other need, then.......

<strong>2) He does not think he is having an A. I haven't dared to point out to him what an EA is, or that I think he's having one. He feels entitled to his friendships with those females. He feels he has no choice but to have only them as friends. If I try to tell him he's in an EA when he's not open to my opinion, it will just anger him more, and sound like me justifying my A again. In short, he won't listen and he'll get mad if I treat him like he's in an A.</strong>

L: They know what you are saying is true. After all, didn't you? Ok, even my H said he wasn't having an A. Hmmmumph! So tell him he is having an A. Let him know he should know better since he knew what you are now feeling.

<strong>3)I still don't understand what you and redhat mean by "babble". Can you explain a wee bit more?</strong>

L: Certainly. About his calls to you. He is pushing your button. I think you already realized that. Now babble back. When he calls asking you for S..... tell him something like 'yes you are ready'. You can either continue or wait for him to respond. Then say something like: 'but only with my real H, please go find him. Tell him I am waiting for him to come back home. But don't bring that other character with him.'

Very similar to what I told my WS. He was being such a jerk, I told him the above and his response was 'yea, I'd like to find him also and bring him home.' This was a small statement that had a lot of impact on me. Now I knew that the WS still had something within him. He still had feelings for us.

Iqb] found out he went away skiing for the weekend, so that's why I haven't heard from him at all. Hopefully I'll hear from him sometime this week.[/qb]

L: Keep this piece of info to yourself. Remember you are dealing with someone deeply entrenched in the fog and not even willing to acknowledge it.

L.

JB[/QB][/QUOTE]

Jen Brown:

This is reverse babble of my version, Orchid probably could help you more ....

H: Do you want to have sex tonight ?
J: Yes but I need to be romanced and love ... call me later when you are ready, ok ?. [click]

You see, You are not LB'ed but you throw back his games. If you say no .. you probably LB so you say yes ... but you put your words in there with word I. Here is an example of Orchid's throwing back words at MFCB and be smart about it ...

You don't want to be in plan A, you are done with your issues. You can't be in plan B, it will just push H & w/o kid is not recomended. So, you do plan A, keep contacts, states that WH has to earn his place as H (indirectly)and reverse babble to him when he starts playing games again. The only word of warning in here (disclaimer) ... is OW ready to take WH as H ?. I mean could OW takes him and they could be financially ok and no baggages (lies) ?. Actually you will push your WH closer to OW and let WH choose. In Orchid's case, OW is a liar and not ready to take WH, so OW started LB'ng WH.

To answer WH behaviors ... it is normal, they push BS's button to make a case for them to show how bad you are ... ( a justification of their act). With your answer "no" to sex, he will say you didn't want it so he has to run to OW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> .

-rh-

Next Call:

"So, you want to have sex?"

"Yes......but not with you"

Click

Jen,

RH's got it down in a way that could be thrown back on the WS. Brynap's version...... well let's just say, he means well but could use a bit of brushing up in the 'tact' dept. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Of course you wouldnt' want to push the WS too far way but right now he needs to be kept at a safe distance. He is being disrespectful to you so you need to learn how to retort back to him and not let it do more damage.

You know the fact that he keeps calling and saying practically the same thing, makes me wonder...... you might even ask him..... 'hey honey, you talk to those other kind people like that??? ' Pardon the pidgin...... sometimes it is better to LB in pidgin.....sounds mo betta' LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Thanks Orchid and redhat, but quite frankly, this reverse babble notion is just a little too confusing for me. That and it's sort of like playing games, which I've had enough of.

I like the idea of just hanging up on him if that's what he calls about, but that would be stooping to his level. I should be treating him the way I want to be treated. I don't ever want him to say, well you treat me that way, so why can't I treat you that way? If I hang up on him, that tells him that it's okay for him to hang up on me.

So I also got to thinking that maybe I should instead ignore the question ("Do you want to have sex?") and say, "Oh I'm fine, and how are you?" to throw him off, since he is hoping for a reaction, and this is ignoring the question.

OR, I could simply ask him what I'm dying to know, "Why is it that you only ask that question now when you call me?" But my guess is that would lead to another hang up.

Another choice would be for me to ask him, "What do you want my answer to be?" If he says he wants me to say yes, I can then tell him, "Well if you want me to say yes to that question, you've got some romancing to do first."

I still can't guess why he'd want to push my buttons. What could doing this over and over again to me possibly accomplish for him?

JB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Jen,

What you have been doing doesn't seem to be working. So why continue with methods that don't work.

Sorry to disagree with others, but reverse babble is not something I would do.

Here is what would work the best.

You do not have to break off into plan B. As long as he is contacting you, then this shows he has not let go.

First, you need to lighten up. When he talks or asks about having sex, just find a way to make light of it. For example: "Would love that, but I have plans, call me next week and maybe we can fit it in." Just have some fun with it without giving him sex. Get some playful banter going back and forth with this issue. Use it to your advantage.

You are trying to open a door with the wrong key.
Quit trying to force that key in the door and try another key. No more letters spilling your feelings. Quit trying to tell him how much you love him and how sorry you are. You have already done that enough times.

When he calls, keep it light, stay happy, and end the conversation first. Continue to go out with friends and enjoy your freedom. Let him think that you have a life and you are done pining for him. Just be nice and pleasant, but stop ALL relationship talk and getting back together.. That is pressure, pressure, pressure. Pressure does not work, so why use it?

He needs to wonder if you are letting go. Let him wonder. Let him wonder if you have met somebody else. Let him wonder why you seem to have let go.
You have to be consistent with this attitude. Stop trying the things that are not working.

Finally, if he brings up a relationship talk, just agree with his view... for example: if he says the relationship would never work... you agree with him and say to him..."yes you are right, this relationship would never work, maybe you can't forgive me" Find something in his statements to agree with...

How can he argue if you are agreeing with him? It works like magic.... Agreeing in this method works to get rid of his negative feelings. Just agree sincerely with whatever view he holds, then shut up. Usually they will then start to defend YOU, when you agree with them.

He has not let go or he would stop calling you. He sees you groveling and he is enjoying his power. Stop giving him the power.

You do not have to be mean.. As a matter of fact, it is best if you stay happy.. Act happy just the way things are... Tell him maybe this is for the best, maybe we aren't meant to be together. Maybe there has been too much damage... Or whatever his view is of the relationship.....

I think you will then start to see him pursuing you when he starts to wonder if you have let go. Quit showing him the cards you hold in your hand. You are giving him too much information about how bad you feel.

Let him see that you have a life without him, and you seem to be happy without him. This is what works to bring them back.

Sometimes a man just needs a challenge. Women have a hard time understanding this concept. When you make it too easy for them, they lose interest. You think if you just show them enough love, they will have to love you back. When that does not work, you just keep giving more of the same. The FACTS show that this very seldom works. Look how hard you are trying now that he has been a challenge for you.

People want what they can't have, and lose interest in something that is too easy. Quit being so easy.
I didn't make up these concepts. Just observed over and over again that this is what works the best. So why not do the things that we have seen that work?

Keepmvn4wrd,

Wow. Your suggestions sound like sheer brillianc to me at this point. I was beginning to wonder how I could do a 180 of some sort, and your suggestions sound like the best solution I can imagine. They sound a little like something that might come from "Divorce Busting" (based on what I've heard people tell me about that book before).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has not let go or he would stop calling you. He sees you groveling and he is enjoying his power. Stop giving him the power.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you've hit the nail on the head, this is what he's all about right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> People want what they can't have, and lose interest in something that is too easy. Quit being so easy.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well said. Actually, it's kind of funny that you say that because my H is well-known for saying over and over again that, "You always want what you can't have!" I know I was coming to the realization that I was making this a little too easy, I could sense that he felt he could almost do anything and I'd still be here pining for him. I have to demonstrate otherwise. Give him the challenge you speak of.

Thank-you so much for your insight and advice Keepmvn4wrd. It just makes so much sense!!

Jen

Dern, Jen - what am I, chopped liver? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

This is what I was trying to say to you in the other thread - unsuccessfully, I guess. Reverse 180, remember?

WAT

Jen, I hope you've found something that will work for you. It sounds like you've got some great ideas.

I will say....you said that reverse babble sounds like playing games and you're tired of that. I totally understand what you're saying, but again I say, you aren't dealing with a rational human being here. He's not going to respond to resonable solutions or ideas until he's finished being king of the pity party and trying to push you in the mud all the time. He's got to grieve and get past this anger. The really worrisome thing is that it sounds like anger is something that's been a problem even before all of this??

The thing is...you're in the game whether you want to be or not. He's playing games with you, and any reaction you give is playing along. Orchids solution isn't about toying with him, it's about confusing him so maybe a little humanity and humility might peek out.

I was really shocked to read your post that he's still calling and offering sex, especially after your heartfelt letter explaining how it hurts you. He's being horribly cruel and rude. I wouldn't treat someone I HATED that badly. On the other hand it is true that he's doing it to punish you, and that's because he still has feelings for you. I think he's hiding them deeply.

Have you considered seeing a counselor yourself?? Maybe they could offer suggestions as well as to things you could say when the door is opened for you (even if it is opened just to taunt you).

Anyway, wish I could help more...I think you're on the right track anyway. The main thing is to start turning this around to work for you instead of agaisnt you. He wants to see you squirm, but like any bully - if he consistantly doesn't get the reaction he's looking for he'll move to a new tactic.

Jen:

"Jack, I think you're a smart man. You seem to have him figured out here. Any speculations as to why he's doing it?? Any one else??"

Jen, your H's behavior after all this time is dumber than a 11/32 sheet of CDX plywood from Home Despot, in my very, very humble opinion.

I think you'll just hurt yourself trying to figure it out right now. I think you need a break. Get caller ID if you don't have it already, and stop answering the phone! Check your emails all you want, but in that case you have the option of not replying to stupid, hurtful remarks like that. Your H needs about a century of growing up, dear. And he feels like he can postpone taking the course every time he gets a rise out of you with his 3rd-grade remarks.

I'm not a plan B proponent, but this guy needs a dose of it right now.

Sorry for the negative post,
-Qfwfq

<small>[ January 20, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: T-zero ]</small>

<small>[ January 20, 2003, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: T-zero ]</small>

Keep:

"How can he argue if you are agreeing with him? It works like magic.... Agreeing in this method works to get rid of his negative feelings. Just agree sincerely with whatever view he holds, then shut up. Usually they will then start to defend YOU, when you agree with them."

This definitely WORKS. I know. A friend of mine used it on me a few times, and uses it on others as well (so I don't have to feel picked on). What happened is that I was disagreeing with him, and was angry with his conclusions, which I believed to be wrong. (They were, but that's not the point <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). What he would do is simply say, calmly: "Yep, I'm a b*****d." That defused anything else I might have to say.

I had planned to do this with my WW after our last argument where she brought up all the things I did wrong 12 years ago to derail my train of thought about contact continuing. I thought to say "Yep, all that is my fault. In fact, your R with RM is my fault, and your inability to end it is my fault. What are we going to do now?" But thankfully, I haven't had to. It seems, my "new and improved attitude" has had a positive impact on those around me and we have been very close. It isn't time yet to talk about things like NC letters and getting back into counseling, but it may be someday. For now, I am going to enjoy my life, because I control IT, only it, and how I feel about it.

Take care,
-Qfwfq

WAT:

It isn't that she wasn't paying attention, Dave...

"This is what I was trying to say to you in the other thread - unsuccessfully, I guess. Reverse 180, remember?"

It's just that a "reverse 180"... ...well, isn't that the same thing as a "direct 360?"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yea, seems we spend a lot of our time turning in circles, huh?

"Do the hokie-pokie and you turn yourself around,
That's what it's all about!"

Dern, what if that really IS what it's all about? (Seen on a bumper sticker recently.)

WAT

WAT - I'm so sorry for sounding like I completely forgot your suggestion, you are absolutely brilliant too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Youre not chopped liver, you are filet mignon! "I was beginning to wonder how I could do a 180 of some sort..." You see I recalled that post in the dark recesses of my overly emotional mind, but somehow didn't retain the how-to part of it, so when I read Keeponmvn's post, it all sounded sort of new....please forgive me!

But I had better be careful about spinning around in circles, 180 or 360....I may just come across as drunk! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> lol

I'm having a good day, I'm no where near as angry as I was last night. A good friend of mine came over and let me vent to her, which was helpful. There's nothing like sleeping on something to calm a person down!! (Well, except perhaps sleeping on a moving elephant.....lol)

T-zero - I do have call display. I have not answered his calls on a couple of occasions. I may just not answer some of them for a while, and I may just use one or all of the unique approaches I've been told about here on MB when I do answer.

1) Agree with him instead of arguing with him (then he'll probably start repeating my usual arguments like you say, in a sense he'll defend my position; that sounds like fun to me!).

2) Make light of what he has to say. This will throw him off.

3) Maybe some of the reverse babble, BUT maybe I have a learning disability here, but I'm still a little lost on that one. Maybe I just need to reread your posts though Orchid and redhat.

One disturbing thing I found out since last night....when my H was talking to one of my BIL's on the weekend about having to go to a big family reunion of sorts in the spring, his BIL was trying to weasel his way out of it. So my H apparently said, "If I have to go without my wife, you have to go." So he's expecting to go without me?? There's one more piece of proof that he is pessimistic about us working things out. Oh well, I know I can't change him, he has to find it within him to change his outlook.

Hi Jen -

Instead of responding defensively to hubby can you just simply state what you feel.

Hubby - I really LOVE you and want things to work out. When I received your email saying "wanna f..k" it really upset me. I felt very hurt because you know how much I want to make love with you as your wife. YOu may not have meant this in a "vulgar" way, but I really felt ugly when I read these words. Maybe this is the only way that you can express your feelings, because you are hurting so badly. If this is the case, then please tell me so I will understand. Right now I am so vulnerable and the last thing I want to do is to have us get back together ONLY for sex. I hope you understand that my answer was not a rejection of you at all. I just want to make sure that when we are together, it is because we love each other.

This way, your H knows that you are hurting by his words, and that you are sincere in wanting him back on the right terms......

"Youre not chopped liver, you are filet mignon!"

In life, there are mentors, and there are minions. Have you ever noticed that "mignon" and "minion" don't sound all that different? And so is Dave, then, a "fileted minion?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

kily - I have told him pretty much those same words, both in an email, and in person. He barely responds to them. Wait, he has responded to them with these stupid, disrespectful phone calls!!! I do thank you for your input though; I've tried telling him how he makes me feel, over and over again, and it hasn't really gotten me anywhere so far.

T-zero: Actually, mignon is French for "cute"!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Thanks Orchid and redhat, but quite frankly, this reverse babble notion is just a little too confusing for me. That and it's sort of like playing games, which I've had enough of.

I like the idea of just hanging up on him if that's what he calls about, but that would be stooping to his level. I should be treating him the way I want to be treated. I don't ever want him to say, well you treat me that way, so why can't I treat you that way? If I hang up on him, that tells him that it's okay for him to hang up on me.

So I also got to thinking that maybe I should instead ignore the question ("Do you want to have sex?") and say, "Oh I'm fine, and how are you?" to throw him off, since he is hoping for a reaction, and this is ignoring the question.

OR, I could simply ask him what I'm dying to know, "Why is it that you only ask that question now when you call me?" But my guess is that would lead to another hang up.

Another choice would be for me to ask him, "What do you want my answer to be?" If he says he wants me to say yes, I can then tell him, "Well if you want me to say yes to that question, you've got some romancing to do first."

I still can't guess why he'd want to push my buttons. What could doing this over and over again to me possibly accomplish for him?

JB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,
Reverse babble is a technique to throw off his anger. Just enough for you to either hang up or get in what you want to say. Kinda like a stunn gun. In the fog, this tends to give the BS a little more getaway time.

I understand about you being tired of the 'games'. But it is not your game, it is his and if you let it hurt you then you are allowing him to call the shots. Reverse babble is also like a shield. You may not be able to control the bullets or the speed but you can protect yourself.

You can just be nice and see what he says, but I think you have already done that. Of course, you know him and yourself better than anyone. And the decision is ultimately yours.

Please don't take my advise as the only one. There are other ideas that work and I am sure you would want to consider them all.

I for one, hate to see the one trying get hurt over and over again.

Please do what is best for U. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.