I really suck at this. I knew he was going to call. I just knew it. I was sitting at the computer reading over these posts, and trying to prepare myself, and I barely got to read more than a couple and the phone rings.

Of course, I tried to answer and sound airy and cheery. He asked as usual, “So do you want to have sex?”

I kept him on the phone longer this time, babbling in a somewhat silly tone on about, "Well do you want to talk about it, maybe plan it? Maybe get beyond you just asking?" He said, "No, do you want to have sex?" I replied, "Well do you want to?" He said, "Yes, that's why I'm phoning." I said, "Well how would that work?" He said I'd go over to the house and then we'd have sex. I ended by saying, "Well that's a lot of effort," so he said, "Okay then, bye."

I then phoned back about 3 mins later and left him a voice mail, let him know that there was a full moon and he should know what that means,and ended with a cheerful "bye bye"(now let's see if you MBers know what that means).

Hmm, I wonder how I should feel about my performance. I did keep him on the phone longer. I did get an "okay then, bye," out of him, which is a small step of progress. I did stay sort of lighthearted and goofy.

He could accuse me of being lazy b/c I said it was too much effort to go over there. BUT it snowed almost 30 cm (a foot for you yankees) here in the last 2 days, the roads are horrible!

Obviously he is one horny boy, with the high frequency of his phone calls. I almost feel sorry for him, 'cuz he can't get any!

Anyone want to put your 2cents worth in tonite?

JB

<small>[ January 20, 2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Good job, JB!

Keep it light, keep it fun...

ROTFLMAO!! Okay, I'm not really laughing at your situation, but the line about how much effort that would all be was funny!!

Hon, I think you did GREAT for your first time and I think you seriously confused him. You'll only get better at it as it continues...which it unfortunatly will for a while.

Hang in there!!

Oh, and I thought of a "solution" along the lines of BryanP's (which cracked me up). How about having his mom over for dinner and letting HER answer the phone so he can ask her if she wants sex?? That'd shut him up for a while. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You know, last night I was laughing away and thought it was pretty funny how I probably had him all confused by the end of the call. However, my guess is he'll call again soon to ask the SAME question again soon. What I really want is to cause a change here.....but I guess "I can't change his behaviour, only my own." I'm just not sure I'm content to play games with him and not tell him directly how I feel and want, especially since I actually feel like I have a handle on it for once. I guess I wait to tell him directly how I feel until I have him in person sitting in front of me, so he can't hang up on me.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So, Jen, the next time he wants sex, make him come and get it. Then, play a little sex game, where you tie him up but instead of getting what he thinks he's going to, tell him everything on your mind and when you're done talking, let him go. He may not "listen" but he might "hear".

Just a goofy idea to keep you lighthearted!
DB

Jen,

Try calling him and asking him.....hey wanna f..k!

See WHAT HIS reaction would be!

I think his mouth would hit the floor. Then tell him that HE needs to come see you!!!!

Jen, he's going to play games with you. You can tell him exactly how you feel and it's going to go in one ear and out the other. Like another poster said, you're too available and predictable right now. If you don't want to play this to work FOR you, then stay out of the game. You said you have caller ID...you're choosing to answer the phone. You know what he's going to say each time you pick up the phone, so why continue to set yourself up???

I think you did fine last night. But getting out and getting a life and your mind off of all of this and not being available for his taunting would be good too! You need to find some strength somewhere. Things aren't going to get any better until you MAKE them better.

Good luck!!! (and have some chocolate, that always makes me feel better)

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: hope4future ]</small>

Jen:

"Anyone want to put your 2cents worth in tonite?"

Heck yeah!

Years ago (I'm ashamed to admit just how MANY years ago), I worked as a pump jockey at a service station (yes, they actually called them SERVICE stations in those days!). We had this mechanic that was newly married (well, maybe a year or two) and his W would call him every day to say hi. He ALWAYS answered the phone "Hi babe" when we picked up and called him over. One day, in one swell foop, we cured him of that (though now, I wish I hadn't played a part). One of our WORST customers called, and was in a very bad mood about some work the mechanic had done on his car. We called him over, saying "It's your W" and he answered "Hi babe." We could HEAR the screaming on the other end of the line from 20 feet away!

Can you call forward his calls to his mom's phone?... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: T-zero ]</small>

I love the idea of turning the tables on him.

YOU make the call!

Or on those times that he does call, my response would be "gosh thanks for that tempting offer, but honestly I'm just not in the mood."

I would constantly say to him "not in the mood". Maybe it will begin to penetrate his thick skull that sex to a woman begins with FEELINGS and EMOTION. Something he seems to be in short supply of.

I think you did just great in the previous call. He's trying to push you to anger. Don't let him do it!

ok...so no one is going to try to guess what the full moon means? I wager it has something to do with "the curse"...do I win? (I am also guessing that is why you think you didnt do that great of job because you called back to give him an excuse of why you were not exactly available so the full affect of you trying to redirect may have been lost)

BTW he will never in a million years jump from "not in the mood" to my wife has other emotional need I am not meeting. It is a hopeful thought but I just dont think it applies to him.

The tied to the bed thing is priceless...but I would have to suggest handcuffs and make sure the head board is rock solid...mahogany, etc. (OK just being silly)

Seriously, I know you do not want to be out of contact with him...couple of questions: in the past when you have complied with his request do you spend the night, or vice versa?...also who gives you the info concerning his conversations with his brothers, i.e. the family reunion etc.? What is this informant's reason to tell you this information? And doesnt your husband realize this person would report back to you? (the positive thing I noticed about that conversation was two-fold: 1. he is still in pity party mode..."if I have to go without my wife blah blah blah..." no concrete decisions. 2. He referred to you as his wife...not Jen...not my soon to be ex-wife...not you know who but "my wife". So in his mind, even to his family you still are that. (just my opinion but I do not think he has even thought the family reunion thing through he just takes every opporitunity to wallow.)

Jen you are the only one to know him well enough to gague how he reacts to your changes in behavior. There are lots of great ideas. One thing I think we all agree upon...your under his skin. I know that isnt what you want right now but even after all of this he cannot be without you...hhmmmm who was it that made contact first, early in fact? He is not letting go the problem is he is stuck in the muck and wants you to sit there with him. Truth is no one can do that forever. Not even him.

best wishes

ayslyne

PS if I was right about the moon do I get a great prize like a choclate bar or something?

sorry double

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: ayslyne ]</small>

When we set boundaries, it is always good to re-state what we do want along with saying what we won't tolerate

I think you are doing much better and are on the right track.

How about:

No, I don't want to just have sex, but I want our marriage back. I'm willing to discuss it.

It can escalate into a war of wills, that is, " If you won't do mine, then I won't do yours." So you do well to state it in neutral terms most of the time.

No, I can't be happy with just part of our relationship, I want the whole thing, I want all of you, so please think about that.

No, I want a lot more than just sex. I want our marriage back, I want to live with you again, so why don't we cut through all this crap and see what we can do about it.

Think along positive lines when you think of comebacks to him. Take a negative and turn it around. You can use some things as shock value. He uses crude talk, you could use positive talk.

I am glad you can smile and laugh at the conversations you have. That tells us how far you have come - a very long ways. While it's true that we don't know what he will do, we have faith in you. You have a great deal of ability and drive to succeed. I have faith it will take you far.

( later edit)
I went back and read what you actually said, and I am impressed all over again. You did a really good job with what he gave you. And, for my W and I , a full moon is a "lovers moon."

SS

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Chiming in with a thought...

What if you answered with...

"Wow..I would love to WITH my husband, but I can't seem to find him, do you know where he is?"

See what he says to that..
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
JMHO
Committed

dazedblonde - I like how you think! Too bad he got the 4 poster bed in the separation agreement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> lol

kily - I'm not going to treat him the exact way I don't want to be treated. But I know your suggestion was lighthearted. I have told him he should come over here, and he usually says no. Incidentally, the last two times he just plain showed up here out of the blue, he caught me on the way out the door once, and the second time I didn't let on I was here b/c I was about to go out for the night and didn't feel like dealing with him.

hope4future - I guess the reason why I answer the phone almost all of the time is b/c I'd want him to answer the phone when I call, so I'm trying to model what I want. But I've decided to at least stop answering his calls if they come late at night. But, I see your point about me being too available and predictable right now. I do get out, I do have a life, don't worry. I just had some chocolate too, and oh does it ever make me feel good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

T-zero, you crack me up! But I'm going to reserve that plan of action for later....lol

Yes, ayslyne, you're right about the moon. If i could email you a box of Smarties (since you're a smarty-pants), I would.

To answer your questions, in the past, I have spent the night there a few times (3 to be exact). He's never spent the night here.

I know I say I don't want to be out of contact with him, but lately the possibility of finding someone who'll treat me better is often on my mind. I can live with not talking to him and keeping him at a distance. I don't miss him as often or as much as I once did.

Incidentally, on the weekend I was over at a friends house for a mellow "games" night. There was one single guy there who told my friend later that he thought that I was beautiful. So maybe I've still got it! It's a little ego boost that reminds me that I will probably be able to find another good man out there somewhere, if it comes to that.

The informant is a close friend of mine who used to date my BIL (for about four years) until the spring. They broke up right before we got separated. She's still in regular contact with her ex, my SIL, and the GF of another BIL of mine. She only tells me the things she tells me b/c she feels I'd want to know, and that I deserve to know. I don't know that my H realizes quite how much stuff can trickle back to me, but yes, he's aware that some things get back to me. Thanks for pointing out that he actually referred to me as his wife! (So he does still think of me that way, maybe!?) He tells me that he's no longer my husband and I'm no longer his wife (since we're separated), that I'm like some sort of secret girlfriend to him.

still seeking - I've probably said all of those things that you suggested I answer his question with, on a variety of different occasions, perhaps even to the point of being a broken record. (You think like me!) He knows that's what I want. He just isn't interested in giving me any more. I've also answered it with, "You know I want more than that."

comitted - I LOVE your suggestion. I may just have to use it sometime!! It's perfect!!

Thanks so much to all of you for your 2cents worth again. Anyone want to place bets on the odds he'll call again tonight? (Right now I don't think I'm going to bother to answer if he does.) How about odds on him showing up here?

It's probably a bit strange for me to take this so lightly now. Forgive me, but I'm finding this funny again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Thanks so much to all of you for your 2cents worth again. Anyone want to place bets on the odds he'll call again tonight? (Right now I don't think I'm going to bother to answer if he does.) How about odds on him showing up here?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">50:50 for the call .... if you didn't answer his phone for a few times .... he might just show up ... 70:30 ... hmmm, w/ my track record of betting for 49'ers, I probably loose ... lol !.

Anyway, it is good for you to start taking control ... it would definitly throw WH off balanced. -rh-

Jen,
this has a bit to do with your feedback on my post. I think it is intolerable that he is continuing to "punish" you for something you have already taken steps to rectify.
He is behaving like a spoiled child. It sounds like he is just testing to see how much you will tolerate. I was so glad I listened to Hope on the boundaries thing. You do NOT deserve to be treated so shabbily. You deserve respect but if you aren't demanding it he wont give it.
I know plan B is scary. Scary because you don't know how you will react if they are blase about it. Indifferent about it or just don't give a damn.
I think if he continues with the calls requesting sex he is going to force your hand on the plan B. Don't worry, you will know when it is time.
Keep your chin up sweety. You are doing a FABULOUS job. Be proud of yourself and don't br afraid to say I've had enough. Make some effort or I am out of here.
Hugs to you!
Layli

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Epiphany time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I was just reading more of a book called "Why does he do that?" which is about abusive men. Throughout the book so far there are SO MANY things that describe my H's ways, before my A, and now, that it's eerie. The more I read, the more I realize he needs to learn about himself.

A huge part of an emotionally abusive man's methods are his refusal to ever see how he may have been at fault....perhaps part of why he can't possibly imagine how he may have contributed to the not so great state of our marriage before my A.

The chapter on Abusive Men and Sex is what's caused me to realize something mind-blowing. My H has sex with me to validate himself, to make himself feel like he is still able to control me to some extent, and so therefore he is still a "man". Here's a related quote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Finally, on some level he hopes that his ability to transport you sexually will tie you to him, so that he can have power over you in other, non-sexual ways. And, in some relationships, the abuser's belief in the power of his sexuality is self-fulfilling: if much of the rest of the time he acts cold or mean, the episodes of lovemaking can become the only experience you have of loving attention from him, and their addictive pull thus becomes greater. In this way he can draw you into being as dependent on sex as he is, although for a very different reason. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you say EERILY accurate sounding????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And here's another interesting applicable quote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">An abusive man commonly rolls all of his emotional needs into one tremendous bundle, which he expects sex to be able to carry....So he compensates for the lack of genuine intimacy by elevating sex to the highest plane, burdening it with the responsibility of providing for him all the emotional satisfaction that he is not receiving elsewhere in his relationship.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyone recall how I said he likes to accuse me of using sex as a weapon? Well...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a typical abusive inversion, [they]will often attempt to convince [you] that they are the sexual victims in the relationship. As one man said, "My partner uses sex to control me..." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That chapter even talks about how an emotionally abusive man's use of pornography furthers his attitude towards his partner, b/c it can depersonalize her and he'll view her as a sex object (like any one of the women in the porn he views).

The chapter also goes on to say that abusive men like to have sex right after a nasty fight or disagreement because "an incident of abuse leaves the man with a bad taste in his mouth, which he wants to wash away quickly, and sex helps him do that." Also, "He feels that if you have sex together that...you aren't hurt by what he did [or said], and that everything is forgiven and forgotten."

The book also says to listen to your inner voice if things don't feel right. Well my inner voice is getting louder, that is for sure. (My counsellor would be happy to hear that I'm acknowledging it for sure.) The more sex I let him have, the more entrenched he'll (we'll) become in this unhealthy controlling cycle.

I almost feel like Plan B-ing him without letting him know that I am. Eg. I don't answer any of his calls, ever.

Anyone else feeling as enlightened as I am?

Jen

PS: Layli - Thanks so much for your words of support. Plan B may be closer now for me than I thought!

<small>[ January 22, 2003, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Sounds like that book hit the nail on the head.
It also sounds like you are ready for a plan B.
Wayward spouses are a lot like kids, some things they just have to learn on their own. We can choose to keep ourselves out of harms way until the lightbulb goes off for them.
You go girl! So proud of you!
Hugs,
layli
PS Glad I am not the only night owl on MB> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen, I think you're so right about the depth and nature of his problems. Your descriptions of your marriage pre-A sounded like he was very controlling.

However, I don't think that going black without any explanation is the right thing to do. That's game playing and punishing if I've ever heard it!!! I know you're finding your anger and THAT'S OK!! But sit on this for a few days before you make any real decisions about it. Also...ask yourself how much hearing ONE WORD of praise through the grapevine from a person of the opposite sex is affecting you. I know how good it feels to hear someone appreciate you for a change...but don't let it pull YOU in to a fog.

If you decide to do plan B, write an appropriate letter stating why. Think about how easy it would be for him to say you've found someone else and THAT'S why you quit taking his calls. He would probly even twist it around to friends and family that you two were making real progress when you just shut the door. Don't give him any grounds to be able to spout crud like that.

Be very careful of events that include single men, or even lonely married ones!! Trust me, an ounce of prevention at this point (no matter how silly or over the top it sounds) is worth a pound of cure. You don't need any more complications in your life.

Anyway, I'm glad you're feeling better!! Hope today is a good one for you!

messed up...

<small>[ January 22, 2003, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>