Dear Space:

It has all been said by others. I have followed your story and wish you peace and happiness in your future.

Be the support you have always been for your children.

I hope you W finds the peace she also seeks.

God bless you and all your family.

Jack

Today we finally sat down and talked about the divorce "proposal" I made...

I guess it was what I expected, but she basically agreed to everything I proposed for the divorce "division of property". Of course, I'm really leaving most of it to her, and she's keeping the house, so I guess she didn't really have much to complain about.

Next week I'll have my attorney draw up the papers and bring them for her signature.

After the conversation I said to her "you know this is not what I wanted...", and she said "It's not what I wanted either, you know that don't you?"...
I didn't even answer her...what am I supposed to say? What I thought was "Gee, you could have fooled me! What with still trying to contact the OM 2 weeks ago, and everything you've done all along to keep that R alive...what were we supposed to do? Have a marriage while all that is going on?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

The only thing I can imagine is that she thinks I don't know half of what I know...otherwise it would have been absurd to ask me what she asked...

I hope she figures it out one day. I really, really do. Otherwise she's doomed to god-knows-what for the rest of her life.

SC, I must say that I really respect and admire your handling of this entire sad situation. You sound like one heck of a guy. I'm sorry for you that it came to this. I'm sorry for all of us.
Please take care. Your lesson in class, true honest love and dignity will stay with me for a long time.

SC,

Why don't you clear the air and tell her what you know. Ask her one more time if she really doesn't want this to happen or is it that she didn't want this outcome but it is inevitable based on what she feels.

It seems to me that both of you would be happier in the long run, if the last bit of "radical honesty" was applied. The break would be clean, but the basis for any future interaction (via children's events etc) would one of honesty. Everything in its place so to speak.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>SC,

Why don't you clear the air and tell her what you know. Ask her one more time if she really doesn't want this to happen or is it that she didn't want this outcome but it is inevitable based on what she feels.

It seems to me that both of you would be happier in the long run, if the last bit of "radical honesty" was applied. The break would be clean, but the basis for any future interaction (via children's events etc) would one of honesty. Everything in its place so to speak.

God Bless,

JL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL; I think you're absolutely right. I'm going to do just that.
Thanks for the "reality check" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

sc:

JL beat me to it. Or maybe he didn't?

Remember when I said "fire all of your guns at once and explode into space?". well, obviously I didn't mean that literally. Meant what JL just said.

I intend to do that if I ever wind up in your position. I hope i don't. In fact, I think I need to do that even if I don't wind up in your position.

As you can see, getting the radical honesty ignited in my M is probably the biggest hurdle I'm facing now. It's amazing just how hard it is.

planetary regards,
-Qfwfq

Hi Spacecase,

I, too, immediately thought Radical Honesty--because YOU deserve to go out with it, and it doesn't leave one stone unturned that may haunt you as a "what if" later down the road.

I don't think asking her if she wants to give it a try is necessary--if you want to then do it, if not then don't. I think the important message is that YOU KNEW ALL ALONG. From her point of view, sure you did an excellent Plan A while you were in the dark, but what would you have done (and what would you do now) if you really knew?

Now she will have the answer to that question. And she will choose what to do with it. I can't begin to imagine the guilt she will have to deal with, or what lengths she will have to go to if she chooses to avoid feeling the guilt.

Be strong Space, and maybe prepare to "duck"?

Take care Space

<small>[ January 25, 2003, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: YetAgain ]</small>

I agree wholeheartedly with JL's advice. Also with the person who said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please take care. Your lesson in class, true honest love and dignity will stay with me for a long time </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your unconditional loving of your wife through all of this is a model that I attempt to follow. I know this has made a positive difference in my interactions with my H.

I know how hard radical honesty is. I even feel like it's almost selfish to be radically honest with our spouses about how we feel. I'm afraid to tell my H exactly how I feel about all that's going on now (with my FIL's passing), because I know the focus should be on him and his family. However, you do need to tell your W exactly how you feel, and find out exactly what she means and feels in order for you to be at peace with things.

I will be praying for you that that conversation goes well.

Jen

Space, Glad to see you are getting it all out on the table before the papers get signed.

Good Luck, Honey

Radical honesty is the ultimate form of intimacy ... especially when practiced with all the love you feel for your wife.

Ironic that you offer her this tender gift of intimacy as you prepare to separate .... she'll be a fool for life if she blows this! (my opinion .... I may come back later and edit that one out)

Pep

Thanks, all for your good advice; this is something I will do. I think there are still things to be said, even if it seems like everything's been said.

Today being SuperBowl Sunday, and me being an old east-bay kid, and being highly allergic to Florida, (y'all who know me know why! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ), GO RAIDERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

<small>[ January 26, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Hey Cadet,

Good to see you moving forward (despite all the emotional obstacles). In the long one you are the one better prepared to face the future.

I was thinking about those who live for the momment vs those who plan for a lifetime...... if I had to choose for decisions related to family life, I'd choose the later. Those momment decisions are meant for simple non-critical things like what do you want for dinner or do you want cream and sugar??!?!? Looks like I have to get some breakfast.....my illustrations are in the food direction! LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If you get a chance please post your super bowl preferences over on MTD's thread. He's a Tampa fan so I am 'sure' he will 'appreciate' your non-biased <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> TX insight!!! LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

take care,
L.

I guess I'm destined to "lose" to Florida...the Raiders turn in their worst performance ever, and the OM gets my W... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'm headed to the attorney's to get the paperwork started this week; still I want to have the conversation JL suggested before I do that; maybe tomorrow (today!).

But I was thinking just now, it's weird. Very weird, but when you boil it all down to the core, the only reason we're divorcing is because my W is too scared to tell the truth about how she feels. Isn't that just the stupidest reason in the world to be divorcing?

Is that really the bottom line, "scared to tell the truth", or am I too tired and slow tonight?

All My Love!

Hi Space, Sorry to see it go this way for you. H and I went to attorney general's office yesterday to arrange child support and custody temporary arrangements.... the office was filled with others in similar arrangments... but most like me would probably of called an attorney instead of doing it the free route.. but it helped not to have to pay for what was freely available and not yet go to the big D preceeedings...

It was sad, we are still in counseling and I do think as my h sees me slipping away he starts to care.. .funny how it works that way... he now values his independence so much. It hurts that he has become such a .... ???? I still have some hope and you may too.

I was having trouble winding down and just thought I would post... seeing you did ... I had a rough day.. funny how this kind of life stress can do that to one? My mom was being very hard on me today--- UGH! HElp!

Anyway, hope tomorrow is a better day for all of us... off to read some more of my boundaries book and go to bed.

Honey

Update...and more questions...

Well, I was determined to talk to my W today, follow Q's (TZ's) and JL's advice, and make sure "no stone was left unturned" and at least generate some thinking into the matter of divorce.

It actually happened in a quite unintended way; maybe it's better like that!

W called me (she was out) and asked me to check her email for business stuff, so I did. Of course, there was other stuff there too, to which lately I pay no attention...but today...well there was an email message from a mutual friend talking about "their trip to Europe"; so that threw me for a loop!

I just got angry. Plain and simple. No reason in the world she should be planning a trip to Europe right now, in the midst of a divorce, and when our finances will have to be carefully planned if we are to meet our obligations, primarily for the kids.

So when she came home, I brought it up. I was bothered by the fact that she'd not tell me anything, and by the basic disregard for what HER obligations will be once we're divorced. I am letting her keep the house, while MY name is still on the mortgage, with her agreement that she will keep the payments up, and the house will be hers, just that we'll leave my name on the mortgage so as to avoid having to re-qualify on her own which she cannot do. It was the only way to keep the house in divorce, and I thought I'd do that. Anyway, she thought this was an unreasonable expectation on my part, and basically walked out of the room. Nastiness had crept into the conversation and I even said I would back out of that part of the agreement; that I would NOT leave my name on the mortgage,, and we'd have to sell the house. Period.

She came back a few minutes later to talk again, and although I won't get into all the details, the bottom line is: she does not want a divorce, and thinks we should not decide that yet. I asked why it would be different from when we already separated before, and got no answer. How can I even guess what she's thinking or wants if she won't tell me?

I've said many times that I understand we're very far apart and that I don't expect immediate recovery, but at least indications of desire, some hope, something! Otherwise all I can assume is that there's NO interest or desire...after all, even the R with the OM might be over already, but if I don't know and all I can base my thoughts on is the fact that she continually and persistently lied about it, I think she has the obligation of demonstrating it now, if she wants me to believe that. I mean she says things like "you stayed stuck on that", but what else can I do if I've seen no indication or demonstration that this is no longer the case?

We talked about many things; love, forgiveness, and I told her I thought the basic problem between us is that she has not forgiven me much, and she still holds me responsible for much of her pain, suffering and lot in life. And that while that persists, I see no way we can have a chance.
I also said that were I to have seen ANY sign of desire, of committment, I may be choosing a different route, but since I haven't, I feel I have to move on; that I have the right to be loved and happy, and that I cannot see myself having that with her here the way she apparently wants things, and I cannot see myself seeking that on my own until we have "resolved" our relationship in a satisfactory fashion.

We cried, we shared some, and I basically told her I'd forgiven her, that I loved her, always would, and that I thought this was the only route left to us.

She said she does not want a divorce, and that she loves me (!), and then she kissed me softly on the lips! Held my hand, hugged me, and even sat on my lap!!!!!!!!

I haven't gotten any such loving gesture in many, many months!

So now I'm not sure what to make of it! Is it yet another ploy (or is this the cynical SC talking?), is it real? Is it maybe that finally, under the gun, so to speak, she's starting to think? I have no clue, have no wish to speculate, but would like your impressions if you have any.

I realize I didn't tell all the story or details, but maybe I will slowly put more of it in here.

Very bizzare! I am thrown for a loop again! I have no idea if there's sincerity there, of if it is just another time-gaining ploy, or if it's real...I have no idea, and I certainly don't want to read more into it than there is...it could just be that with what I said and my tears I touched a caring nerve somewhere...I do not know!

All My Love!

<small>[ January 30, 2003, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Space, please please listen very carefully here. Yes, she's sincere...down in there somewhere...but yes, it is also a ploy. And if she gets what she wants she'll keep things on her grounds and before too long be back to the same old crap as before. She knows you still love her and are affected by her...she's not REALLY scared yet...nervous, but not really fathoming life completely without you.

Until she says the words "I will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get our marriage back, to get YOU back", and actually backs it with action, she's still thinking about herself and keeping things where she's comfortable.

I really believe she loves you, but she's still so prideful and stuck on what she wants, reguardless of how she gets it. Love is an action, not just a feeling....she's just got feelings at this point.

Hold out for what you really want, Space. You want a REAL marriage...she isn't offering that yet. Her actions are still all about her. Don't be seduced in to believing otherwise.

Cadet,

Ok, a common sense viewpoint here and meant in the spirit of trying to get to the truth. I certainly do NOT want to see you in more pain.

A woman's wiles......... are strong. You brought up the Europe trip......caught her and now the $$/house thing shows she just can't do what she wants....unless...... you enable her somemore. IMHO, the reason for the sweetness. Tantilizing and knows how to wrap you around her pinkie.

Yup, we Venusians are a strange bunch. Think we can enslave the best of men. Why? Because we often do. Men have the muscle but women???? Women can melt all that muscle. We don't need brute strength to overpower a man, just hit where it hurts. YIKES! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Bad Venusians!

So Cadet, place your cards well. Make sure she 'proves' to you beyond a shadow of a doubt and earns back your trust...... you will see her real motives soon.

I just hope it is for the good.

take care and be careful.

L.

Thanks H4F and O;

I feel the same way you have described, although it is alien to me to act that way and be so cynical. However, I have been burned EVERY time I have acted in the "higher" plane. In fact, it is, to a great extent, my enabling this type of behavior for years that perhaps has contributed to creating this "monster"...I guess that has to end.

letsee.....

First, I certainly don't want to see you get hurt. H4F and Orchid are some very wise Venusians. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

None of us know when or if the fog will ever clear enough to gain active participation in rebuilding. Many of us have seen the fog clear enough to hear "I'm sorry", and "I love you", but that's not enough long-term.

Seems there was lots of sharing and emotions.... smooches and hugs.... tears and tender hearts... but were there concrete promises? plan of action? Well, maybe last night was not the time to cover those. But YOU KNOW that's what you need in order to gain hope for your marriage. Otherwise, you should prolly move forward with the divorce, or go to a strict Plan B.

Will you re-consider a strict Plan B - a "practice divorce" - since you both say you don't want a divorce?

<small>[ January 30, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</small>