I don't think there's another "Plan B" in the cards for me. As far as she's concerned, EVERYTHING I've "done" since all this started has only made things worse!

No; I think I'll proceed with the divorce, and let thiungs happen as they may. If she decides she's ready to DO something about it, THEN I'll consider holding the divorce proceedings or another route. Otherwise...it's over and that's that.

No more "limbo" for me!

Okey Dokey SC. Here's my thoughts:

I agree in part with what the Venusians are saying here. You and I both know that if we were to plunk ourselves down on Venus, that 90-Bar, 480C atmosphere would crush and fry us so fast we wouldn't know what hit us first. But it wouldn't matter anyway, would it?

Anyway, rampant metaphors aside, I think that this convo was a BIG STEP for you. But it will only "count" if you can keep it up AND (and this is most important) you can keep from losing yourself and getting drawn back into the status quo, whatever that was. I think there should be a way to maintain your "higher plane" version of SC at the SAME TIME guarding yourself against the Venusian manipulative strategies from your W. The worst part of it is that none of it is consciously planned. Read my post on my Name Change thread about my coworker's sitch. No A, and yet his 27 year M has been on the rocks for 15 years, and they haven't slept together in over 10. I listened to him tell me his story the other day for about 3 hours. It struck me just how similar his situation is to those of many of us on this forum, only there is no evidence (or time) for an A. Neither of them consciously wanted to be suspicious of the other or wanted to waste their lives growing to hate the other, and he can't figure out what happened to the love they once shared. Well, it's still there, I'm betting, but he's going to have as hard a time finding it as many of us do with our WSs. And he'll face/is facing the same decision we all face: Stay in the M and do the hard work, growing as individuals in the process, or get out and "start over" or "move on." The first choice is the hardest, but also the most rewarding. The second choice SOUNDS like it should be the easiest, and "starting over" or "moving on" sounds like renewal (and I suppose it can be), but if it's done without exhausting the possibilities, then you have to wonder whether DV is really the best choice in the long haul.

My vote: Stay strong! Stay on your "higher plane." KEEP TALKING like this. But be careful not to get drawn in. Don't let your W assume the "victim" role, and don't fall into it yourself, either. You've learned a lot over the past year and a half, so I think you'll do fine, but it's going to be hard. Rewarding, though.

Love,
-Qfwfq

Ploys are short lived, and can't be maintained.

Real change is proven over time, even though there may be short term setbacks.

I am with Orchid. I think she wants things to be different. However, wanting and doing are not the same. Your musings are correct. How do you know? You watch and wait. That's what you have done, and nothing happened until now. I don't believe it was real to her....... until now.

It could be that her change will be real, you have read enough histories to know that sometimes it happens before D, sometimes during, sometimes after.

I believe you need to keep talking and telling her ( in a calm, loving way) what your feelings are - just like you shared them with us in this last post. It may even be that you will have a student to teach now, but you will have to probe to find that out. It may be that she would go back to counseling now and it could help. Don't be afraid to ask. If she says she doesn't want D, then you can talk about POJA and the other things you need to stay. The worst that could come of this is that you would have to go ahead with what you are already prepared for.

The Gals here are worried that you will be hurt all over again. It's a valid concern for us, we kind of like you and we don't want that to happen again. You have pulled back quite a ways from full term romantic love, and if you start back, your feelings will be exposed again, so you have to think about that and you have to know what you can take.

I believe after seeing what you have become that you can probe and learn and still be safe. I encourage you to see what you can find out about the workings of her mind and what she really wants.

I have no idea how long it will take for you to learn what you are looking for. Again, keep in mind that you have prepared yourself for the worst, you can always finish out your plan at any time.

SS

SC-

Could this be another Mortorman saga in the making?

Stand your ground - continue to do exactly what it is that you are doing.......

Look at the changes, do they fit the pattern or do they differ in some way? Just keep collecting data......

Personally it's too soon to tell from my point of view which way this will swing. Kily always hopes that the prince gets his bride!!!!

My thoughts are with you...

Timing ---> did she smooch you and sit on your royal lap before you informed her that selling the house was her consequences for planning a financially absurd trip to Europe?
Ploy-de-ploy-ploy

Did she sit on your lap and smooch you when you were plan-A ing your butt off?

<small>[ January 30, 2003, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper:

You know? It's exactly the kind of thing you were talking about that keeps ME going. The wordless actions as a result of our convos. Are they part of the ploy? Maybe, sometimes definitely. But are they conscious? Probably not. That doesn't minimize their significance, good or bad. Just an observation, and something I've been thinking about a lot lately, since I have the easiest time "reporting" on the things we say, and a much harder time telling about the things we DO without saying anything. And so, the big picture isn't always that clear.

This is not an excuse for poor communication skills, which I will admit I still have. But it's interesting...

-Qfwfq

Pepp:

I also don't want to give the impression that I think the burden of communication is on the BS's shoulders. I note that my W and I are closest after big blowups, which is exactly the same thing as SC's W sitting on his lap AFTER the convo - avoidance of facing consequences yet again...

Knowing that's what's happening is what's different for me now. And so it's easier to resist getting drawn in and further confused by it.

It still isn't necessarily conscious on the part of the WS. And that isn't an excuse, either. Consequences are good things to experience. That's how we grow!

-Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Timing ---> did she smooch you and sit on your royal lap before you informed her that selling the house was her consequences for planning a financially absurb trip to Europe?
Ploy-de-ploy-ploy</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was after I said this. Also after we'd both calmed down and talked.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did she sit on your lap and smooch you when you were plan-A ing your butt off? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes; up until the time I left for my quasi-plan-b. SF stopped several weeks before that "exit" of mine too.

I guess that how I perceive things is that she has so far not felt she "needed" to do anything, or decide anything, since basically during Plan A, Plan B, and even now, she's been pretty much free to do as she pleases, without much interference from me. Until a very short while ago, I was even still paying ALL the bills (now she's taken over many).

So I guess that my read on that is simple; she will "act" (decide, choose, whatever you want to call it), only if she has to...up until now she hasn't had to. And of course past history plays here too; ever since I can remember, she'd put on her "show" and wait me out. Eventually, on most things, I gave up and let it be...yes, I know, bad move! But it's the truth.

Perhaps that is exactly what she's expecting (and waiting) to happen this time too...sound logical or am I mis-reading this?

SC:

Makes sense to me! And so the question is: When she "acts" this time, will it be to make a fundamental shift? Will it matter to SC? Or will it be too late?

Like the others above have suggested, it might take DV to make reconciliation possible. Crazy, huh?

-Qfwfq

Q,
Of course you're right in that I should continue to "converse". I have tried for many, many months. The only problem is there is NOTHING to converse about!

When I ask what she wants, she says she doesn't know. When I ask if she wants a divorce she says no; and when I follow up with "what DO you want?" she's back to "I don't know". When I say I love her, she says she loves me, but it's just words...we don't have any love "actions" of any kind (for months until the kissy-huggy" thing yesterday. She does as she pleases, and doesn't even inform me when/if she'll be in/out/gone/going to europe!...so we're roommates...that's all.

Nothing I've done has elicited ANY type of response that shows she wants to try, wants to see if we can figure this out. Nothing at all.
As far as I'm concerned, she's still trying to get in to see the OM; maybe she's still talking to him. What I DO know is that she's called the prison in the last two-three weeks...so what can I deduce from that? Only that there's something going on. What? I don't know...but she's still lying about it, as last night's convo confirms. If she's telling me I'm "still stuck there with the OM thing", meaning that's over, but behind the scenes she's still calling there...

The point is that while there is some progress or inkling of progress with conversations, they are great. But in my case we haven't moved an inch from where we were a year ago...I'm still to blame for all maladies of the world, and hers in particular, she's seen no changes in me worth mentioning, and as far as she's concerned, everything I've done since all this started has only made it worse, hurt her more; so why keep doing it?

I mean I have doen it all! From the initial screaming frenzy of a BS, to counseling with 3 family counselors, to Plan A for 6 months, to Steve Harley, to plan b, to semi plan b, to talking, to coming home again...I mean what the @#$%$#@ else am I supposed to do? Keep waiting?

I don't think so...maybe I'm an [censored], maybe I'm still too hurt, maybe...whatever! But I just do not see what the heck else I can do while everything just stays exactly the same. I don't want a roommate...I want a wife! And I have pretty much lost all faith in her ever having the capacity to be that again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Qfwfq:
<strong>SC:

Makes sense to me! And so the question is: When she "acts" this time, will it be to make a fundamental shift? Will it matter to SC? Or will it be too late?

Like the others above have suggested, it might take DV to make reconciliation possible. Crazy, huh?

-Qfwfq</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My point precisely. Nothing has elicited any type of change in her posture or desire. Why fight it any longer?

In fact, were she to make a sudden change based on the DV filing, I'd be highly suspicious of it...how can I believe a word she's saying after ALL that has happened? There would have to be some pretty strong ACTIONS on her part to convince me it's real.

I guess some people have to take it to the edge, or beyond, before they give up their "crusade", or they realize they've made a mistake...unfortunately, many times it's too late.

It's like the outnumbered, outgunned platoon whose sarge fights to the last man...what;s the use, except to lose the last few lives? In the end...it's too late; they are all dead. At some point we must either realize it's not working and everything will be lost, or we go on to the end...stuck in our beliefs, hopes, whatever...only to find it's gone too far. And then it's too late.

But maybe something happens before then that changes the scene. That convinces the "hero" that it's better to live to fight another day.

For me it's over. I mean I haven't had a marriage in over a year and a half. Perhaps for several years. I deserve better in life, and if it can't be with her and here, it'll perhaps be elsewhere. Were I a less optimistic guy and felt less love than I do, I would have given up a long time ago! Heck, I still haven't given up!
Even if we divorce, I know she'll be a part of my life forever.

Seems to me, she is willing to "do whatever it takes" .... when it comes to avoiding consequences .... not when it comes to marriage recovery.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ January 30, 2003, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

SC:

As usual, I'm seeing elements of your sitch in my own. And this is exactly why I won't call us "in recovery" until we can sit down and agree on the text of a NC letter to RM. It doesn't matter whether she's "ended it" or not at this point or at any other point in the future. I won't have closure to my satisfaction without an agreement to write that letter. I also know that many here have recovered without a formal NC letter, but because of the primary nature of the contact in our case - via email, phone, and at out-of-town conferences - I will require it.

The Qfwfq family will officially NOT be in recovery until we have agreed on a plan of recovery that we adhere to AND we've delivered the "fatal blow" to that [censored] elephant!

-Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Seems to me, she is willing to "do whatever it takes" .... when it comes to avoiding consequences .... not when it comes to marriage recovery.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sadly, I must agree with you Pep.

I think Pepper got it right.

Space, you can do it as simple as saying " If you don't want a D, show me, otherwise, why should I believe you?"

SS

Whichever other elements are present for Recovery, the key and necessary ones are desire, sincerity, committment, and love.

If one could feel a sincere and honest telling of what happened with them, and the actions show committment and love, one might not need a NC contact letter, or even a set plan...but we all really know inside what we need to "feel" before we're ready to say "I'm in Recovery".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong>I think Pepper got it right.

Space, you can do it as simple as saying " If you don't want a D, show me, otherwise, why should I believe you?"

SS</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely. I will definitely do that

SC:

Yep. I'm re-reading some Ulove texts to remind myself of what's really important here.

I think that, even if a formal plan isn't written out and followed, that true recovery really would require a plan that both parties have agreed to. It could be simply that they've come to some verbal agreement or understanding of where they are and where they're going based on actions that have been taken to "bolster the team" or something along those lines.

I feel pretty far from recovery, but I'm famous for saying things like "that light at the end of the tunnel could be a train, or Nostradamus with a flashlight" just to keep myself from getting my hopes up. But I have to be careful. The light at the end of the tunnel JUST MIGHT BE the end of the tunnel!

Your buddy, Qfwfq.
PS "Buddies" is to the death!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />