How do you know? We might live with a conflict avoider, that is having an "out the door" A. Is there any way of knowing so maybe the BS can not put themselves through more than they have to in the first stages of healing? I was wondering what everyone thought...maybe there are some real telltale signs that it is an "out the door affair" and would be willing to share.

Although my wife started an emotional affair, I luckily caught on quick and made it hard for her to continue it. There is one thing that I feel is almost fool proof. It is said that the eyes are the windows to the soul.

Get your spouse alone with no kids, tv, phone, radio or distractions. (good time is just before bed). stand up right in front of them, take your hands and put each one on either side of the head, look straight into the eyes, and ask "Are you having an affair on me?, or "Are you still with me?" Watch the pupals diolate or not, or watch for a look away.

If they can look you straight in the eye without the pupals diolating, and say they love only you and nothing is going on. Then you can be about 95% sure they are telling the truth.

They will be shookup by you doing this, but believe me it works. I was fortunate enough to see the love in my wifes eyes for me, that told the whole story. try it . Good luck.

woke, I did that, and a week later I caught him with a MOW, and that was after doing the questionares....I was just asking the question for discussion purposes.... guess noone wants to discuss.

if what your asking is no matter what you do they are gone anyway,then i guess any sign will do.its more about what you want to do.by d-day my wife was at the point of ready for engagment ring from OM and talking about a house.she was willing to walk away from everything for him.that would be an out the door A.but she was still at home so i would not give up.most affiars end without WS leaving for good.its a matter of if the BS has the patience to wait for the fog to clear.the pain that begins at d-day is self inflicted by the WS(they could just walk away) but it is usssually pain taken for a goal,winning back the WS.i dont think there is a clear sign that its out the door.at many points i felt that it was hopeless to go on.but we made it.

What causes the change after D-Day? My WS seems more hostile whereas when I was suspicious he was mainly emotionally detached.

Rob,
I would love to hear the story of how you and your WW made it. I am really struggling not to feel hopeless. My WH is still here after threatening separation. However, I am on the roller coaster ride. He is especially difficult after talking to the OW. I wonder what she says to him that has such a major effect on his personality. That's what makes me think that I am powerless over her. Thus, she is a drug like alcohol, right?

Rob,
I would like to hear your story also, if you have the time. I have the patience, as painful as that is, he has moved out and there is NC, I hear he is not doing well but mostly I hear that it's anger towards me that I made his affair happen and that since I found out about it, I have destroyed the chance for his happiness with the MOW. So, I have the patience but he has so much hostility towards me that he can not even be civil and I'm the betrayed on. So, I was thinking if he has that much anger at me now, and he didn't before I caught them, maybe he had the A, to walk out of relationship, even though a month before d-day he was emailing me love notes and being so kind. That is why I was asking for the discussion, because it seems like he feels I am the treacherous one which is making him suffer and that hurts me. He has what he wanted, freedom to do what he wants and now, I'm getting blamed. But he is not telling me these things, just bits and pieces I get along the family grapevine.

Neesha:

I feel an "Out the Door" A is harder to recognize, b/c we are so hurt by the deception and seeming randomness of the act that we cannot be see it rationally.

I am not saying you are irrational, just that the hurts are just as real and hurt as deeply, so it really doesn't matter what motivates the A.

My ex left for the reasons you are describing, and immediately moved in w/an "old friend." I was never informed of this fact. It came to me through family members, but as the months dragged on, it became obvious he was living w/her. However, the very next day after Div was final, he moved 5 states away!!! How's that for an "out the door" A????? No question in my mind that's what it was!!!

BTW - as I dragged the Div. out, waiting and praying for him to "come to his senses" and snap out of it, he became angrier and angrier! I suspect their anger is more turned inward, b/c they KNOW they are doing wrong, but don't know how else to fix what they've done. They may SEEM to be angry at BS, but really, they don't know WHAT they are angry at!! Mostly it is that NOTHING is working the way they thought it would, and they don't know how to fix it. The BS is just the easy target. Don't take it personally.

Does it being an "out the door" A change anything? No. We still ended up Div'd. Did it make me feel better knowing it wasn't b'c of HER that he left? Not really. In fact, it made me feel WORSE!!! If he'd been having an A b/c he thought he'd fallen out of love w/me and IN LOVE with OW, then I could blame it all on "them." This way? WHOse fault is it? Isn't it MORE my fault than HIS, since I must have been such a shrew he needed to INVENT a reason to leave, and couldn't wait to leave, even if it was for NO real reason. Plus, I'm thinking it's harder to come back from this type of A, cause (apparently) so much "thought" went in to the actual leaving, that they are totally in withdrawal stage at the time they leave. NOT in conflict stage (read Concepts pages above if confused).

Well, being the classic conflict avoider that my WH is (I'm pretty good at it, myself!), this was apparently an easier way to fix the "I'm not happy" syndrome than actually talking to me, and committing to fixing our problems!

Doesn't change anything, Neesha. You will still have to live through all this, go through all the stages of grieving, and the hurt and the feelings of deceit.

I'm sorry. I know your pain. But it does get better. One day, it does. Really.

God Bless,

Thanks Lupo,
I am truly sorry how your M ended. I am actually doing well, have my moments, my days, but all in all I am healing and learning from this experience as we all do no matter who you are in the situation.

We had to ask WS to move out because of his behavior, but that was really a blessing as it was way to emotionally abusive that it was better that way and not go bankrupt in the love bank". It is a complicated story. I have been on MB since October which was d-day.

It was nice meeting you as I don't think I have read any of your posts, thanks for joining in my discussion.

Hi Neesha and Lupol:

Your situations sound exactly like mine. It is so interesting.

My WS and I have been together forever, married 26 years. I thought we were soulmates..the perfect couple. We got too involved in childrearing he says. He is now BLAMING this on me, saying I stopped paying attention to him which is true. Since D-Day like you have said, he has tended to be so ANGRY just going on and on about what he sees as my faults. On one occasion in the past couple of weeks, he admitted to his wrongdoing. However, mostly, he stresses that I made him do this. He is ANGRY that I put him into this mess. I guess you are right. He now has to decide what to do. He is faced with having to leave this nice house, move out ALONE, face financial hardship,etc. Before it was easier, cake and eat it too, and as an avoider, he could put off making any decision about what to do about the double life. Now OW is now probably making demands like now that she knows, you are open to leave. It really is a difficult time here. I have been thinking as you mentioned that he is being emotionally abusive. Yes, like you have said, I'm waiting for him to wake up and come to his senses. I kind of told him that and he said that I live in a "fairy tale world". I'm looking forward to hearing Rob's story. Of course, I want to be hopeful. But I'm feeling that I will eventually have to face the reality of the end of my marriage and as you know that really hurts. I wonder how I'm going to make it. You guys know how it is. This is so fresh for me now.
I am happy to know that I am not alone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong> I wonder how I'm going to make it. You guys know how it is. This is so fresh for me now.
I am happy to know that I am not alone.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, mimi,

No, you're not alone at all. And I'll tell you how you're going to make it.....

You will Plan A till the end. You will hold your head up. You will remain resolute in your belief that your M could be saved if only he'd "wake up," but you can't beat him over the head with that. Just remain peaceful in yourself at that belief.

He may not wake up yet. BUT, we all know there is NO Paradise out there, so one day our WH's will have to wake up, smell the coffee and LOOK AT THEMSELVES and admit they screwed up their lives!

I look forward to knowing someday that my WH ended up in a similar situation (or worse) than he had here. For instance, I worked every single day of our M. I never asked HIM to support me. We did it together. And not so together when he started into a MLC and "decided to retire" and DID NOT work. I continued working. I continued holding it all together. He can't do that without me. Never has been responsible when it comes to paying his debts. WHO'S going to do that now????

WHO's going to take in a 50+ something yr. old man with declining health (bad back, bad knees, possible cataracts, arthritis), and NO health ins. and no job??? WHAT KIND OF CRAZY woman wants THAT?!?!?!?! I have no doubt he'll find one. BUT - I doubt she'll be so accommodating to his "problems" (some health, some other kinds, such as dealing with his weird FOO) as I did for over 20 years.........

In other words, NO ONE is going to put in the time investment as we have done (in long-term M's). I take great comfort in that. I DO NOT SEE my WH finding anyone who will invest in him all that *I* invested for all those years without wanting a big pay-off. And quite frankly, when my H offered it ALL to me, just to be free of the M? I TOOK IT!!! I've got it all. He's penniless. He took nothing from here. Not that I demanded. He just wanted to do it. His guilty conscience, I suppose. BUT, where does that leave HIM??? Can a middle-aged man really "start over" and recover from this kind of devastation? I don't think so. TImes have changed, and now he's too old.

Sooooo, after that tirade <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'll just add this: Your Plan A will look better and better to him as the time drags on and his life begins its downward spiral.

In the meantime, we are here for you. Please continue posting. Good thread, Neesha.

God Bless,

<small>[ January 18, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: lupolady ]</small>

hello,
i'm still not sure what you call an out the door A.is it one standing at the door threatning to leave or one already gone?by d-day my wife was still here but gone at the same time.if you understand that.as far as my story,it went will quick from d-day on.i decided to let her see OM.i wanted her to make the right decision,with out sneeking around.it was risky,yes.one day i gave her gas money to go see him.imagine that!my hopes was that if the thrill of sneeking around would nolonger be there if i aproved and new about itthat it would fizzle out.it had some effect but not enough.so after 3 weeks i simply told her to make up her mind.and gave her a date to decide by.that date came so i made the decision for her.go...i said to call him and tell him you are on the way.i also made sure she knew that he needed to be aware of her needs.she would have kids with her some times and his house was not big enough.he would have to move.also worked out custody by this point.we actully let the kids decide.one with me and one with her.i think that got to her.not only were we spliting up but the kids decided to split too.all over her.i also had a gut feeling that he wasn't serious about this so in a way i called his bluff.when the pressure was thrown at him he bailed.it was dangerous cause he may have actully stood up and accepted this.he also was informed of all her bills that came along with her.instead of letting the affair die on its own i accelerated its death by pushing it.the entire time i was pushing her out the door i was also being her best freind.the feeling of laying in bed with your wife talking about her lover cant be described with words.its something never thought i would ever do.i wanted to know everything about him.while i exploited any faults i found i also pointed out any good point about him.he had money and could provide for her better than me.but he traveled alot to make that money so would not see him as much as me.and i made it clear that i would not be a sitter for her to travel to country with him.
i played i very dangerous game.i would not encourage anyone to do this.i look back now and realize the risks i took.but i had not been on the net and learned from sites such as this.i went day by day and did what felt right at the time.i did have a plan with rushing the A to try to end this quickly.but thers were some days i felt as if i was loosing.but never gave up!

now it still took months for her fog to ware off.basically she was dumped by him and i had a greiving wife and an angery wife to deal with.it was months until it hit her what had happened.it was almost a year until i got and apology that was sincere.but the most important thing for was to get him out of the picture as fast a posible.she was unhappy with me and as long as he was around i was in competition.
so my story is not really diferent that others.i just approached it diferently.the end result was still the same.we stayed together.

I think that a problem that is going on with my WS and the OW is that he was probably very much attracted by her admiration of his status and money. Now, he is realizing that he will not be able to move out and maintain the lifestyle that he has here. He may realize that she doesn't love him just for him but also she wants the frills. He was planning on renting a new condo but after I explained to him the financial realities of just paying the bills at this house he had to back off from renting the condo. He said "I deserve someplace nice; it's hard to leave here". I have been really playing up the "niceness" of our house...fireplace burning, big-screen TV, dinner ready, etc.

It's still hard that he's probably with her right now as we sit (here at the computer) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I've been counseling with Steve Harley. He refers to my WS's path like you, as being self-destructive. I hope he can stop himself before it is too late. This young woman does not know how to really help him at this point in his life. She just wants to take and he is not really prepared to give. All of my husband's best friends are telling him that he is about to lose EVERYTHING and he won't listen. He's not even talking to them. It's AWFUL as you all know.

Thanks for being there for support. I'm going to need it.

mimi,
all that i've learned so far leads to believe that the WS wont listen to anything negative.they will only listen to positive thoughts.as this gives them justification for their actions.what you have to do is find a way to use the positive thoughts to your advantage.if you can tolerate it.
your husband has already acknowagled that he has it good at home,the material things anyway,but its a start.thats his weakness and thats what you need to work with."playing up on " what he has at home is good.its positive.putting down the OW puts him in a defencive mode and you loose any credit you had.so stick with that.you mentioned about the finacial problems with moving out.dont let him feel trapped.its negative.instead keep working on what he has vs what he will have if he leaves.not what he looses if he leaves.the fog is on him and he will take the "better deal".if necessary do a comparison with OW.its hard to fight back if you dont know your opponet.find out what she has to offer and what she doesn and show him that you can do the same or even better.but without putting her down.i found this was effective.as soon as i put down the OM she pulled away.to her ,he was "it".she didn't want to hear anything bad.now what i did was make him show his bad side.not something i would encourage you to do.i used it as a last resort.true it payed off but still very risky.
now neesha is in a diferent situation.he has alreay left.this makes it harder.but one advantage is i believe she said her WH is with a MOW.so the OW has to leave her husband for anything to work.for her its a waiting game to see who quits first.
we want our WS to feel secure.putting them in a no win situation or a no option place can deminish you chances but there does came a time when you have to say its now or never!and that time depends on your williness to wait.
the entire affair issue is a gamble.the WS gambles with the life they have ,the BS gambles with every single move they make for the future.the amount of gambling you do depands on how big the pot is!

Well, I'm glad the thread has not died seeing as I like good discussions and am in one of those reflective moments of which I am accused of having too many.....and here is one now:

I was just thinking that sometimes no matter what we "think" are issues of a relationship problem that if both do not want to identify and or hash through the "jungle of decay" it does not matter that the "A" took place other than to let the WS, justify themselves internally on the "death" they already felt the relationship with BS had suffered. But in fact it is within the individual (WS) that the death took place, not about the relationship issues, but about the individuals issues that they do not want to revive and heal for themselves. Does that make sense?

There are people who just will not look within themselves ever, their existence will be based on outside influences be it for bad, good, or indifferent. Then there are some that make it a lifelong study of working from within themselves. And of course, the ones that are catapaulted into delving deeper be it from physical, emotional, mental, or spiritual reasons. I think the wondering for us lies within the parameters of not being able to gauge sometimes what it would take for our mates to "delve into themselves",and not make it about outside interferences. Because ultimately any growth has to come from within, and the pain for some is realizing we fell in love with someone who has not grasped that concept yet. Does that make sense?

Neesha

This makes profound sense to me. Since d-day, my WH has woken up to the fact that his infidelity problems stem from an emptiness somewhere at the heart of HIM. He recognises that he has used women as distractions from this vacuum, but that he has taken this path to the ultimate extreme, and that it leads to destruction.

Unfortunately, the catalyst for this self-discovery was OW, who is a therapist (met non-professionally). He is therefore still reliant on her, and cannot quite break away. He feels that without her 'guidance', he does not really know himself or the way to go. Although he recognises that allowing another human being to be your 'Higher Power' is very dangerous, he cannot quite stop himself.

So it's a difficult conundrum, when WS is desparate to 'delve into' themselves, but needs the OP to help them do it! What kind of spiritual journey is this?

EEK Together,
A therapist is the OW? No matter if she was in a non professional role she is a professional. So I would wonder about her ethics. I also think that no matter what is involved that it is a solo journey, it has to come from within and it has to be viewed as a solo awakening, that is not to say that people, therapy, books....are not the catalyst in the process but it does have to be like a light bulb switching on in ones head that the person triggers inside themselves or again they are validating their growth based on someone else's perceptions. Which means that as long as they can be fed words to appease from outside of themselves they will not depend on the internal processing that needs to be recognized within themselves for total awakening, such as he is dependant on her....when really all he is saying is that I do not want to depend on it having to come from within me. Have you ever noticed that when someone tells you something about yourself for free, you give it no credence, but as soon as you pay for the same thing, it takes merit? He could have this dependancy on himself for his awakening for free, but that does not mean as much as getting it outside of himself and paying for it, such as (affairs, emotional confusion, someone else's views are more important than his own) I am not speaking directly to him please don't get me wrong.

Have you ever seen someone pay 100.00 to hear someone tell them something that maybe someone who knew them and loved them expressed but was not accepted to be valid until someone else made them pay for the same words. We human are funny creatures that way. Well, how about paying someone else 100.00 to hear something that you basically know within yourself but do not want to let surface and become consciously your truth? Sorry, babbled there.......way to long.

Neesha:

Interesting point about some poeple never learning that introspection can be a good thing! I know my WH is that kind of person. However, if someone wanted to do his thinking FOR him!!! I'm seeing a pattern here....my H's sister is a very domineering, controlling person. Only thing is, she does it in a seemingly "nice" way....so it's hard to really see the pattern of behavior. Ultimately, that's where my WH ended up, so now she's controlling him!! She decided (for him) that Div. was a good thing. SHE is probably deciding for him now WHO he should or shouldn't be "dating."

Ah, well! The price one must pay to "be free." I hope it's not too steep for him.........

Rob, to answer your question about what makes one an "out the door" A, the answer is that out the door means the S who wants to leave feels that they have "served their time," they feel like life is passing them by, like they need to do for themselves now, before it's too late for them. The A isn't about love, it isn't about OP, it's truly NOT about OP at all. It's about getting OUT of the M, in any convenient way that presents itself. Usually, that "way" begins with a person who is willing to accommodate the WS, who tells the OP any/everything to help villify the BS, in order to make their case of WHY they need to leave stronger. Of course, they then get a willing ally in the OP, who thinks this is their chance to make a great catch, be with their "soul-mate." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
as if any person who would leave a M for just any reason or could fall in love with another, and just LEAVE their family is a "good catch."

Take care.

Wow this has been an interesting thread to follow, I have adding to the thread in JFO but not here yet.

lupolady- my gosh, it sounds like you must know my WW! Everything you said rings true for my situation. Very interesting!

Neesha- you are right it is very difficult to listen to advice from someone who is concerned, instead we pay to get advice from someone who does not know us as well. I wonder is it because we don't trust the advice from the friend but after hearing it from a counselor makes it valid cause we have heard it before, therefore it must be true. In other words, we need advice/criticism repeated before we listen to it?

STTSI

Still,
I think sometimes when friends, family, or our mates try to help us help ourselves then it's not taken as well as it is from someone who does not know us because we feel that they might have another agenda then our "best interest" or we feel why listen to them what the heck do they know about me, look where they are, or what problems they have.....in their lives...so why tell me about mine...see it kinda snowballs from there. But when listening to someone else, (possbily the OM/W..that do not know the entire being that is our spouses, then it's taken more as valid because it is not threatening to the psyche so therefore is truth. When I used the analogy about paying it was to make the point about looking for validation outside of yourself then going within which is always free to do.